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Jason Farlander
In the spell idea thread, GunnerJ introduced a new spell that, while interesting in concept, posed the problem of causing two distinct damaging spell effects to occur simultaneously. As far as anyone who posted to that thread could tell, there is no precedent for allowing such spells to exist, and calculating the drain code for such spells can be rather problematic even is they are allowed. Thinking about it, I came up with a way to do it that, at least at first glance, seems reasonably well balanced and useful -- a spell chaining metamagic technique.

QUOTE
Spell Chaining:

Through Spell Chaining, a spellcaster can combine several spells into one single effect.  The initiate can link together a maximum number of spells equal to his or her grade. The spells to be linked together must be decided before the first spell in the chain is cast, and each spell added to the chain requires a separate complex action.  Furthermore, the caster's sorcery is decreased by one effective point for each additional spell added (the first spell is at full sorcery, the second at sorcery -1, the third at sorcery -2, and so on).  Once the chain is completed, and directed, the caster the effects will take place simultaneously.

If the initiate fails to successfully cast any spell in the chain, the entire chain fails and the initiate mus immediately resist drain from each spell alread added.  Otherwise, drain from casting the chained effect does not take place until after the chain is completed and directed at the target(s), at which point each spell must be resisted separately.  The drain from all spells in the chain is considered to take place at the same time, so penalties accrued in resisting individual spells do not apply to other spells in the chain; however, since the drain all takes place in the same turn as the chained effect is targeted, the caster's spell pool must be divided between resisting each spell. 

If the spell is successfully cast, the target(s) must resist each effect separately and simultaneously -- however, if a target successfully resists the first spell in the chain, he or she is considered to have successfully resisted the entire chain. 


Thoughts? Comments?
Tanka
...Ew...

You see, there's this thing, called Stacked Spells. You suffer a +2 TN for each, and it works pretty much the same way. Except your Sorcery doesn't decrease each time.
Moonstone Spider
What would the advantage of chained spells be? If every spell takes a complex action anyway then doing magic this way takes just as long, but is less successful and harder to use and tends to hand you even worse drain.

Example, suppose I want to chain 5 spells. My initiate could take 5 complex actions to do it and suffer -5 die on his final sorcery test. Or he could just cast a spell each complex action, lose no die, and get the advantages of having the first spell's effect on his targets Init and TNs before the fifth ever comes around. If one spell fails, the other four still might succeed.

Under this system it takes just as long, reduces your die, and if any one spell fails all spells fail and you suffer drain for all spells anyway. Why not just create a metamagic ability that let's the player suffer 5 times normal drain for no advantage or automatically lose 2 initiative die every turn?
Zazen
As tanka said, this is redundant. I still think it's a cool idea to have spell-combining specialists. It might even be an edge rather than a metamagic, akin to the Focused Concentration edge.

Two ideas: have it reduce the drain penalty to +1, or reduce it to +0 for the first additional spell and use the standard +2 for each spell beyond two.

ed- and just so you know, multiple spells are in SR3 on page 181 smile.gif
Tanka
Better idea:

You can chain a number of spells equal to your Initiate grade. It takes one Complex Action, and you choose what order in which the spells come into effect. Each drain is taken separately. If one spell fails, the rest go on in order. You may choose to chain more spells than your Initiate level, but at a +2 TN for the Drain and the spell success.

To avoid confusion: Initiate L1 can chain two spells. L2 can chain three, et cetera.
Mongoose
I can see one OBVIOUS advantage, MS; whacking somebody with several spells simultaniously can make if very difficult for them to put up effective spell defense (if they are protected by any) because the defending magic user doesn't get a chance to refresh thier pool. However, bieng done in multiple complex actions, its very likely the casters pool WOULD refresh during the chain casting. That makes it a very powerful tool for a "magical sniper".
Which, IMO, certainly would merit putting a pretty strict Iniate Level linked limit on any "chained" spells. Not just the number of spells, but also the force of each, or the dice allocated to each from sorcery / spell pool.
Jason Farlander
Mongoose, I think, understands exactly why this is more useful than anyone else seems to notice. For each spell you add to the chain, your spell pool refreshes, so you still get plenty of dice to cast each spell.

tanka seems to think that this would be worthless for sustained spells... but i disagree. Assuming i have a sorcery and a spell pool of 6 each, rolling 12 dice for the first spell (dont need to save any dice for drain) then rolling 10 dice for the second spell (again, dont need to save any for drain) and 8 dice for the third spell, all at the same TN, would be MUCH better than rolling a reduced number of dice each time at increasingly difficult TN. Assuming a TN of 4, you would average 6, 5, and 4 successes for each of those tests, respectively, in the chained spell version. the average number of successes with the +2 to TN with each successsive spell is 6, 2, and 1, respectively, when stacking sustained spells, even if no dice are saved for drain resistance. Basically, tanka, you overestimate the impact of losing a sorcery die. Furthermore, after the first spell is cast, the target is aware of the fact that there is a spellcaster in the area. If the target is hostile, this is bad. In the chained spell effect, everything happens at once, so, as long as you dont have any geasa that make your spell casting obvious, you can surprise an unaware target with a large number of spells they must resist.

However, Mongoose is right about its obvious usefulness in combat spells, especially in an ambush situation. Hitting someone with a manabolt, powerbolt, and a stunbolt all at the same time is going to make it very difficult to completely resist the effect, even will a good number of spell defense dice allocated.

One further advantage is that you can cast a series of powerful spells without having the drain from those spells affect the casting of other spells in the series. so that manabolt, stunbolt, and powerbolt could all be cast at serious, and youd even have a good chance at not falling unconscious from the drain assuming a force of 5 for each spell.

The only other way, by canon rules, to cast two spells on a target simultaneously is to *split* your sorcery between the spells being cast. Thats certainly a worse option.
Zazen
I figured that serious dice-escalation was unintentional. It's like a video game where you hold the button down until your guy glows, then let go for a super-duper punch nyahnyah.gif

So a guy with spellcasting/pool of 7 and a force 4 focus can hold down his button 'till he's ready to throw 70+ dice?

Not in my game smile.gif
RedmondLarry
As I understand your description, Jason, this technique does not impose the +2 per spell TN and Drain penalty that casting multiple spells at once imposes.

It sounds so effective for ambush / sniper, that I think I'd not allow it in my game. After all, a Sniper gets his Aim bonus only on the first shot and can only do a deadly....
mfb
how long can you hold an unfinished spell chain? i mean, right now i'm imagining a mage who spends his down time casting four out of a five-count powerball chain. he'd be walking around with as many of these unfinished chains as he wanted. if it were me, i'd have the last spell in the chain be a force 1; that way, i can get the effect of casting four force 6 powerballs with an insane number of successes (since drain isn't a problem when you're sitting at home, you don't need to waste dice resisting it) for the drain cost of casting a single force 1.
Zazen
It says you take all of the drain at the time the chain is released.
Tanka
My thoughts are that it takes far too long to start this sucker up. Most take maybe one Simple or Complex Action to do their works. Those that take longer are because the action they are based on already take longer (Elemental Conjuring/Invoking, for example).

I might be a little sketchy on magic in its entirety, so bear with me and correct me if it needs doing.

What good is the Sorcery skill during casting? You roll dice equal to Force, augmented by Totems and Spell Pool (Which, I know, is based on Sorcery). You resist Drain with Willpower, again augmented by Totem and Spell Pool. Most people I know don't bother spending karma on increasing skill, but instead spend their karma on Initiating (For those Awakened people, at least). If they always stay at Sorcery 6, that means they could only link a total of four spells, then they're stopped from using Sorcery Pool.

That person with Sorcery 12 is a rare one indeed. Just like that person with Pistols 12, or Computer 12, or Taiwanese Cooking 12.

Sure, you can get Power Foci to raise that, but then you risk Focus addiction, Astral attack, Imps, so on and so forth.

Basically, the big qualm is that which mfb said, you can link tons of spells for just the right moment days ahead of time, thusly throwing everything into successes. Then, when you feel the time is right, you fire up that last spell (A Force 1 spell that doesn't really do anything anyway) and use all your Spell Pool remaining for resisting Drain. All with no TN mods for sustaining the chain or the spells therein.
Fortune
QUOTE (tanka)
What good is the Sorcery skill during casting? You roll dice equal to Force, augmented by Totems and Spell Pool (Which, I know, is based on Sorcery).

You do not roll dice equal to your Force. You roll Sorcery skill, plus any appropriate Totem Modifiers and Spell Pool. The target resists using the Force of the spell as the TN. The Force of the spell also usually has some bearing on the degree of success of the spell.
Zazen
Also, spell pool isn't based on Sorcery but Magic, Intelligence, and Willpower.
Tanka
Ah. Right. Old SR2 relic. My fault.
Fortune
QUOTE (tanka)
Ah. Right. Old SR2 relic. My fault.

It happens to the best of us. wink.gif
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (mfb)
how long can you hold an unfinished spell chain? i mean, right now i'm imagining a mage who spends his down time casting four out of a five-count powerball chain. he'd be walking around with as many of these unfinished chains as he wanted. if it were me, i'd have the last spell in the chain be a force 1; that way, i can get the effect of casting four force 6 powerballs with an insane number of successes (since drain isn't a problem when you're sitting at home, you don't need to waste dice resisting it) for the drain cost of casting a single force 1.

The spell is released as soon as the last spell in the chain is cast, just like a normal spell is released as soon as you finish casting it. Unless I've totally forgotten something, you cant just "hold" a cast spell until you feel like casting it, and this is the same sort of thing. You cant cast the spell *days* ahead of time, because there isnt a target of the spell days ahead of time... now you could, theoretically, anchor a chain... but that would have to be one *hell* of a high force anchor to make it worthwhile

Also, you take drain for every single spell in the chain once the chaining is finished and directed, not just for the last one.

OurTeam:

It is a good sniper technique, but if you try to link too many spells together you risk having the target move out of LOS. Thats why it takes so long... sort of as a balancing factor. However, if youre a mage with a quickened or sustained (via focus) improved reflexes, it suddenly doesnt actually take very long. The other balancing factor is that, if you try to make it too powerful, you run the very serious risk of killing yourself with drain overflow once the chaining is complete.

Zazen:

Dice escalation? What are you talking about?

toturi
Oh my god, why does this technique remind me of the Baldur's Gate 2 cheese methods of Chain contingency and Spell Trigger.
Frag-o Delux
Why would also take the time to cast a mess load of spells that you will have to resist idividually and have your target resist 1 if done correctly according to the last sentence in your Meta-magic description, wouldn't suffer any of the spells. That just seems wierd, I would like the target to resist each spell as I would have to reduce the drain.

If you did make the person resist each spell, that still would be a worth while effort, cause like the mage resting the drain simultaniously not suffering from the drain neither would the target suffer from damage, so it would be like resisting 5 mages in one round instead of 1 mage 5 times, but easier because the damage ouldn't make resisting harder.

Not to mention is would be over kill, if you hit a guy with 4 force 6 powerballs and you killed him on the first one then you have to resist 3 more for nothing.

If you want to get rid of spell defense throw a little wieght spell at the target, and hope the mage protecting him uses all of it or a good potion of it defendign the cream puff. The mage can't tell what spell it is when it happens(at least I don't think htey can, haven't seen a rule about it) so he'll block youForce 1L spell with all his dice then sla a force 6 powerball intothe target.

What happens also if a new more dangerous target steps out while you are whipping this spell chain, do you drop it and start over taking all the drain and then hoping he doesn't nail your hide to the floor. If I remember correctly Powerball has to be aimed at a specific target and a specific number, the targets willpower. It would be farelly cheesy to let a mage build up a spell aiming at Joe Bystander with a willpower of 3 then hit UberMagi with a willpower of 6, with a spell you built up with an easier target number.
Zazen
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Zazen:

Dice escalation? What are you talking about?

I mean a guy with decent spellcasting abilities holding down the button until he's throwing 50+ dice.

With some work you could break 150 with a starting character. Just imagining the hassle and time involved in having a player actually roll 150 dice (plus drain!) makes me cringe.
Jason Farlander
Fragg-o Delux:

You *would* have to resist the spells individually. The reason I put the line in there about the target being considered to successfully resist the entire chain if the first spell is resisted was to make the spell chain slightly more difficult to pull off. The problem I saw with it was the possibility that the first spell in the chain could be made intentionally weak to eat up the defender's spell defense -- but I suppose that, given the simultaneous effect of the spells, there isnt really a "first spell" rather than have the target resist them in the order they were linked, the target would simply be aware of all of the spells in the chain (though not necessarily what those spells are), and decide how to allocate spell pool or spell defense before resisting anything.

So yeah, unless someone out there has a compelling reason to keep that restriction there, I think for my purposes I will remove it.

As for choosing targets, it would depend on the spells being cast. the only valid targets of the chain would be those who are valid targets at the end of the spell, however, in the case of non-area-effect spells, the targets of the spells are chosen while the spelsl are being linked. so you could link 4 manabolts at a single target, or 4 manabolts at 4 separate targets, but any targets would have to be valid targets when the spell is first linked, and at the point of linkage the target is set.

For area effect spells, its a little different. As per normal area effect spell rules, the caster simply makes a single test and compares the results to the tn for each valid target in the area seperately. Since area effect spells dont require the selection of a single target at casting, if a new target enters the spell effect area before the chain is complete, he or she becomes a valid target for any area effect spells in the chain.

A side thought: the way it is written, since the caster takes drain when he or she fails to cast a spell or when a the actual spell chain is directed at the target(s), it is technically possible for the caster to drop the entire chain voluntarily before it is finished without taking any drain... however, none of the spells would take effect and the time spent in its preparation would be wasted.

Zazen:

I still dont understand what you're talking about in regards to this thread. Either I've totally missed something, or you misunderstand how the technique is supposed to work. Please provide an example of how this technique can lead to someone throwing 50+ dice at a spell.

toturi:

its vaguely similar to the d&d, forgotten realms "spell sequencer" spells, but not really to chain contingency. The "Contingency Metamagic" technique I posted in the old forum does a much better job of approximating it, though with serious limitations.
Zazen
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
I still dont understand what you're talking about in regards to this thread. Either I've totally missed something, or you misunderstand how the technique is supposed to work. Please provide an example of how this technique can lead to someone throwing 50+ dice at a spell.

Not in a single spell, in multiple spells. Someone with sorcery and spell pool of 6 and a force 2 spell focus can chain all the way and throw.. 54 dice. Make it something like some force 1 serious flamethrowers and they'll never dodge in a million years. Now you get to roll 6 seperate times to see if their ammo blows up and kills them.

A starting character can get to 150+ dice with some cleverness.


Here's another cheesy tactic: dice doubling for drain.

First spell: a force 6 deadly blow-stuff-up spell using all spell pool, a force 6 spell focus, and, say, a 2-die totem advantage. That's 20 dice.
-Next turn, pools refresh-
Second spell: a force 1 clout spell at light damage.
End of chain.
Drain for blow-stuff-up: Willpower + full spell pool + force 6 focus + 2-die totem advantage. Probably more than 20 dice.
Drain for clout: Negligible.

Adding that clout spell made the drain a hell of a lot easier to handle. The whole point of chaining didn't really come into play, just someone taking advantage of its peculiar ability to double ("dice escalation"!) spell pool, foci, and totem advantages.
Mongoose
One thing that would balance this out a lot is if any spell defense / shielding that was used against one spell in the chain, applied to ALL spells in the chain. Makes snese- they are all coming in at once, from the same place, cast by the same mage, etc. That would also make it "look" more as if they caster was casting one big spell over multiple complex actions.

As for the "cast at home, zap them with 50 dice later" thing- well, you have to see the target of ALL the spells. In fact, thats a big potential drawback, because if you loose LOS to the target during all the time you spend "chaining" the spells, I'd think you would loose the chance to have any of them take effect.

I can't remeber where I have it, but I once wrote up some rules for "spell holding" that let you cast a spell but prevent it from taking effect for a time, either by conciously "sustaining" it or my making a sorcery test to set a "delay". Seems like the controlled delay version could be used to a similar effect as "chaining", to create an incoming barage.
I mention this because the "delayed" spell was like a sustained spel in that it could be detected and dispelled. What about a the "chained" spells- can the target (or an obsering mage) maybe detect that somebody is working magic on him, and do something about it (like get under cover) before the chain of spells is finally let loose?
Jason Farlander
Zazen:

first thing: a force 1 elemental manipulation spell will not cause any secondary effects, because it will not overcome the object resistance of anything. except dry sticks. you could catch a stick on fire. but paper? no... its a "manufactured low-tech object), so, even with the OR reduction of -1 from the flamethrower spell, it would have to be at least force 2. for a bullet, a "manufactured high-tech object" you would need a force 3 spell (8-1=7; 7/2 =3.5; round down) however, a force 3 flamethrower spell shouldnt be that hard to come by, especially if youre chaining 6 separate spells (as this would imply you are a grade 6 initiate).

That said, a spellcaster who can throw 20 dice into a force 3 elemental manipulation spell will probably kill, or at least severely incapacitate, any non-troll/supercybered metahuman target, simply because the average number of successes he will get (10) is greater than the average person's ability to generate successes (at TN 3, a body 6 human with 8 combat pool can not generate enough successes to dodge and, and will, on average, generate only 9 successes on the resistance test, taking a deadly wound. one extra success, or one fewer success on the casting test, would bring it down to serious, so its not a completely guaranteed kill.

Doublecasting that flamethrower spell *would* virtually guarantee that your target bites the dust, since they would have to divide their combat pool to resist two separate effects, rolling 10 dice twice against a TN 3 and needing to generate, on average, more successes than is possible. Certainly more difficult to survive the barrage than it would be to surive resisting 2D drain twice. Now, resisting 2D drain 6 times *would* be problematic, and might even kill the caster unless his or her willpower is exceptionally high. Its not the vast amounts of power one would weild in chaining 6 spells that bothers me... its that its too easy to kill someone with only two chained spells.

I also see the problem with your second example.

Here is a way to fix both: Sorcery does not drop by 1 for each additional spell, and, but spell pool dice and additional dice granted by foci do not refresh for each spell added. These dice must be divided among casting and resisting all spells in the chain, as the caster chooses.

Mongoose:

I dont know if I like that, but the balancing issue is, I think, resolved by my change. the caster only gets spell pool once, so the defender only gets spell pool once. Fair.
Zazen
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Here is a way to fix both: Sorcery does not drop by 1 for each additional spell, and, but spell pool dice and additional dice granted by foci do not refresh for each spell added. These dice must be divided among casting and resisting all spells in the chain, as the caster chooses.

That's a good fix. smile.gif

I think it'd make sense for chaining to be an Exclusive Action, too. It's just the flavor of it.
Tanka
Seeing as how my entire post was based on SR2 knowledge, my entire point is moot. nyahnyah.gif

Thus far it's shaping up to be a rather good thing. Something I wouldn't use, but good nonetheless.
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