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SincereAgape
Taken from the Catalyst Game Labs Main Website.

Runner’s Toolkit
To continue the Shadowrun celebration, several anniversary projects are in the works. The next is the Runner’s Toolkit, a box set of tools that any runner or GM will find useful for any type of game play. The Toolkit contains the following:

-A deluxe, 4-panel hard-cardboard GM screen featuring a stunning full-panoramic illustration of Seattle.

-A 32-page booklet of additional sample contacts and adventure seeds.

-On The Run, a 56-page “first run?.

-Anatomy of a Shadowrun, a fictional account of a shadowrun, annotated with how game rules apply to the fictional run; a perfect “first-time-player? companion.

-Big Book of Tables, a 64-page booklet drawn from Shadowrun Fourth Edition as well as all five core rules expansions for an easy-to-use guide when trying to equip your characters with the latest and greatest during character creation.

-The Pre-generated Auxiliary Character and Kit System (PACKS) allows players and gamemaster’s alike to quickly assemble player and non-player characters using plug-and-play character profiles and equipment kits.

-6 heavy cardstock, double-sided reference sheets provide quick and easy reference for a variety of tasks, from how to resolve combat, to hacking, to summoning and more.



To be honest, this product seems fantastic especially for the new gamemasters or those who like to keep the game simple.

Quick question: Will "On the Run." be revised and upgraded to incorporate more challenges for the runners, such as better equipment and spells for the NPCs, stricter firewalls, and added statistics for other aspects of the game such as stats for random hackers at the Cathcode Bar?

Personally, I would like to see the original incarnation of the supplement stay in tact and "pure." to the original as possible. The adventure is an EXCELLLENT introduction to the 4th edition rules and I believe simplicty is the key to the story book.

Adam
There are some tweaks to On the Run, but it's still the same at the core.
SincereAgape
The strongest aspects "On the Run" had to offer to the SR community are..

1. All that is needed to run the module is the 4th edition core rule book. Having the 4th edition GM screen is a nice niche, but all of the statistics in On the Run can be found in the core rule book. No need to have Street Magic, Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, etc or any of the setting books such as Runners Haven, Feral Cities, Corporate Enclaves, etc.

Ghost Cartels is an fantastic campaign printing, but since I only have the core rule book and the GM screen, I am unable to find all of the statistics for many of the additional cyberware, bioware, equipment, vehicles, magical threats, and spells that are found in the Ghost Cartels.

Hopefully all that is needed to run this new version of On the Run is either the original core rule book or the 20th Anniversary Edition of the Core Rule Book. If other supplements are needed for equipment for the NPC then that would defeat the purpose of the introductory adventure.

2. The professional ratings of the enemies were on the light side and at a decent power level to provide threats to new players to the 4th edition or new players to SR in general.

3. That it was also very GM friendly and included a lot of references to the core rulebook when a new power was used, a new security system, an introduction to hacking, introduction to magic, etc. The "Reference boxes" and Game master notes were fantastic segways and introductions to the new SR universe.
Adam
QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Mar 13 2009, 07:57 PM) *
The strongest aspects "On the Run" had to offer to the SR community are..

In that case, other players/GMs that think the same as you but haven't used it yet will appreciate On the Run in the Runner's Toolkit. smile.gif
SincereAgape
QUOTE (Adam @ Mar 13 2009, 08:08 PM) *
In that case, other players/GMs that think the same as you but haven't used it yet will appreciate On the Run in the Runner's Toolkit. smile.gif


Music to my ears Adam. Music to my ears smile.gif

Edit: Thanks for answering these questions very promptly!
Cain
On The Run has always been more of a GM aid than an actual adventure. It's not something that makes for a good introductory scenario.
SincereAgape
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 13 2009, 07:35 PM) *
On The Run has always been more of a GM aid than an actual adventure. It's not something that makes for a good introductory scenario.


Cain you are focusing to much on the end result, and ultimately who is behind this entire the mission. Breaking down the scenes one by one, On the Run serves as a good introduction for characters into the Shadowrun world in that sense.

-They are introduced to one of the hottest night clubs in the city and understand that since they do not have a good enough reputation, getting in will be difficult. Club Infinity shows the runners the nightlife of Seattle, vibrant, hedonistic, a place where business can be conducted. Augmented reality, VR, and the new wireless community are also at the for-front.

-Then, they are brought to the Cathcode Bar, a small hangout for geeks, nerds, and hackers. A private establishment where the storyteller can further reinforce AR and even bring forth hacking into the game. And that is only the tip of the iceberg. Towards the end of the adventure it does shift into a hybrid of Shadowrun, cthulhu, and WoD mythos, but the overall structure of the certain setting points in the mission do explore the SR universe.

On the Run also brings forth gangers, BTLs, Negotiations. And helps give the PCs experience in minor jobs such as B&E, couriering, legwork, tracking, and of course all out combat. On the Run is written in the old of the older SR II module adventures and even states that it was influenced by Nigel Findley's One Stage Before adventure. Queen Euphoria, Maria Mercurial, Dark Angel, Dreamchipper, Total Eclipse, etc. On the Run has the same type of story as those classic modules SR II.

Also. Keep in mind that the author only had the core rule book at the time to base her adventure on. She did a great job using statistics, spells, cyberware, equipment, critters, security, and NPCs that were listed in the core book for easy access to the new GM. Notice how everything in On the Run can be found in the Core Book. From the Triad enforcers, to the neuro stun toxin, doberman roto drones, ares predators, rules for vampires..etc.

For what was given at the time, she did a pretty decent job imo.
Cain
QUOTE
Cain you are focusing to much on the end result, and ultimately who is behind this entire the mission. Breaking down the scenes one by one, On the Run serves as a good introduction for characters into the Shadowrun world in that sense

Breaking down the scenes one by one, there's a lot of good introductory material for the game master. The material isn't nearly as good for the players.

For example, the mission itself. You're essentially being asked to chase down a needle in a haystack. It's like being asked to go after a betamax tape, without knowing what's on it. Every time I've ran it, I've had players chasing down antique dealers instead of music moguls.

The betrayal in the middle of the run has a longstanding controversy, I won't go too far into it. But I still say that requiring the PC's to betray their Johnson is a poor design choice.

My review stands. There's too much tech and virtually no magic throughout the adventure. There's also no player handouts, something I think is unique to On the Run: every published Shadowrun module I can think of, including every Missions run, has at least one page of player handouts. But that sums up On the Run in perfect detail: lots of GM toys, nothing for the players.

Malicant
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 14 2009, 05:32 PM) *
The betrayal in the middle of the run has a longstanding controversy, I won't go too far into it. But I still say that requiring the PC's to betray their Johnson is a poor design choice.
Not neccessarily, but if it requires the Runners to want to betray their Johnson for no good reason at all, that's poor design.
WhiteWolf
I for one was looking forward to the Runner's ToolKit, but with the announcement of the intro mod "On the Run" being added I am no longer interested and not because I think the module is bad, but because I think Catalyst Game Labs should release another introduction module instead of bundling one that has been around for a few years.

I remember Catalyst making the comment the reason why they were including "On the Run" in the Runner's ToolKit was because it was out of print; so reprint the intro mod and including a new introductory module into the Runner's Toolkit. I say this because at this time I am not inclined to purchase the Runner's ToolKit since I have already bought the printed version and PDF of "On the Run," so I am having a hard time justifying the purchase of an item that includes a major component I already own, twice. I hope Catalyst will reconsider, but it might be to late for them.
SincereAgape
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 14 2009, 12:32 PM) *
There's also no player handouts, something I think is unique to On the Run: every published Shadowrun module I can think of, including every Missions run, has at least one page of player handouts.


That is something I can agree with you on Cain. It might not be to late for some consumers to express their opinions for this new release of the product. If there were some how able to add hands outs that would be a nice addition. What would you add though, the only prop that I used was a CD to represent the mission file along with some music in the background for when they listened to the music.

WhiteWolf: Catalyst is already working on future adventure supplements that assist in progressing the game forward, and I believe Tiger Eyes posted a thread about a fan of the game with the 20th Anniversary adventure module thread. "On the Run." served it's purpose, as a new module to introduce GMs and players to 4th edition. There is content such as the download able "Denver Arc." on the Catalyst website that also serve as new adventures for players to run for 4th edition.

And if they wanted, they could have created a 56 page extensive adventure and sold it to fans separtely. I see it this way, they are adding on a published adventure to an already nice package.
Adam
QUOTE (WhiteWolf @ Mar 14 2009, 02:52 PM) *
I remember Catalyst making the comment the reason why they were including "On the Run" in the Runner's ToolKit was because it was out of print; so reprint the intro mod and including a new introductory module into the Runner's Toolkit.

Sorry, doing this simply wasn't practical for us, for several reasons.

I hope that when the Toolkit comes out, the other cool stuff in it sways you -- there's going to be a lot of good stuff packed into the box.
SincereAgape
I'm dying to know what these changes are nyahnyah.gif
crizh
QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Mar 14 2009, 08:30 PM) *
they are adding on a published adventure to an already nice package.


From the looks of it Runners Toolkit will be well worth the price even if you throw the scenario away.
SincereAgape
*Bumped*

Wondering if there is any update regarding the SR4A Runner's Toolkit.

Thanks.
crizh
I think it might have been delayed slightly, presumably so important stuff like Running Wild would be finished for GenCon.
Prime Mover
Runners Toolkit, Vice, Novels? All still forthcoming....I've gotten some patience back now that we have 2-3 books being released in near future.....but im sure by Sept we can start whining again for new stuff. sarcastic.gif
Ravor
I don't know, although On the Run does have it's fair share of problems, reminding the players that Shadowrunners should be the kind of people who would seriously think about betraying their Johnson at the drop of a hat for nothing more than mere curiously is one of its streghts in my opinion.
Kerenshara
Having just FINISHED the module as a player, I will say that it feels... contrived on a few levels. It depends strongly on just how much information the GM is handing out. If the character is penned as being somewhat experienced in the shadows and not a rank newbie, there are whole segments of the 'run that rankle and require you to ignore some valid IC paranoia in order to allow the story line to develop naturally. Our GM was pretty flexible, and we DIDN'T cross our Johnson because we got some information that another Fixer was actually thinking of recruiting us based on the results of that 'run. The fact that he figured out who Kerenshara was and had an eMail sent to her hotel room based on the visual data from the story "Food Fight" I posted in the vignettes thread means she was willing to work for peanuts with rank amateurs if it meant getting closer to somebody who might know more than just who her PERSONA was. Without that motivation, I'm not sure she would have taken the job at all, much less followed through. There's a time to walk away...

Now, the individual scenes weren't bad, but the flow was just awful, even with a LOT of grease from the GM. I liked some of the venues, though with my characters special abilities, getting into the club was actually quite easy; The poor sammy on our "team", on the other hand, had to blow all but a hundred nuyen or so on clothes nice enough to let him pass. The hacker bar was... interesting to say the least. The biker bar was so typical, it almost hurt. The fight in the dark (don't want to spoil it if you haven't read/played the mod) reminded me of playing Classic BattleTech in the old Ishyama caverns, which was simultaneously fun, exciting and as frustrating as the old caverns... at least the walls didn't move on you.

Overall, compared to some of those old-time SRII classic mods, it was a pile of drek... the fact that in two respects it involved music, it tied PERFECTLY into a side aspect of our ongoing campaign and actually made it an acceptable intro/segue module for us.
Ancient History
I can't wait for RT to come out! Then players will have something entirely new to bitch about!
Ravor
Ahh, you know we love you. If we didn't then we wouldn't bitch and complain the way we do. cyber.gif
Aaron
Precisely why I measure my success by how little my work is discussed here.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 29 2009, 06:22 PM) *
I can't wait for RT to come out! Then players will have something entirely new to bitch about!

Oh, come on, I wasn't bitching, and you know it.

*grin*

I was being critical of some aspects of the module, and it DOESN'T compare that well to some of the old classics, but that doesn't make it without value. That's not the same a "bitching".
Adam
I often wonder how well some of those classics would be received today, if they were "released, read, and reviewed" within a day, like our projects are now. wink.gif
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 29 2009, 07:23 PM) *
I often wonder how well some of those classics would be received today, if they were "released, read, and reviewed" within a day, like our projects are now. wink.gif

Adam, that's seriously not funny.

On the other hand, our GM has resurected them and polished them up for 4th Ed... with a serious amount of bellyaching about the math and time involved. Not all will work, but turning the Mercurial mod into a "comeback" as opposed to the original seems to make it work just fine... I mean, leonization, right? She's certainly got the money. And everything that's old is new again... when fads appear by the week in the 6th World, I would imagine that means even old music and so forth would have a moment to shine once again.
The Jake
I thought On The Run looked great initially. I read it cover to cover at least 3 times and used a yellow highlighter all over it to mark key passages before I ran it for my players. Then I ran it and realised how replete with problems it was. It can be salvaged and I think principally, the story is great for starting players - but not without significant modification by the GM.

- J.
Adam
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jul 29 2009, 08:28 PM) *
[font="Lucida Console"]Adam, that's seriously not funny.


I'm not trying to be funny, and I'm not trying to denigrate any legit concerns about anything we've published or will publish. Just pointing out that our consumer and communications culture has changed a lot since the early days of Shadowrun, as have expectations of what a publisher "should do" to earn a customer's business. That's not a complaint -- I love my job and I love making games -- but I know full well that things remembered so fondly often don't hold up to scrutiny years later [especially when one is a teenager when falling in love with something...]
Ravor
Aye, I've learned the hard way to NEVER watch the shows that I loved as a child.

Still, although I can't really disagree with your basic point Adam when the old modules do get discussed I think we bitch and whine about them almost as much as we do the new stuff so I'm not sure how much has actually changed other than before the net it was harder for the devs to actually see their work getting disected.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 29 2009, 07:49 PM) *
I'm not trying to be funny, and I'm not trying to denigrate any legit concerns about anything we've published or will publish. Just pointing out that our consumer and communications culture has changed a lot since the early days of Shadowrun, as have expectations of what a publisher "should do" to earn a customer's business. That's not a complaint -- I love my job and I love making games -- but I know full well that things remembered so fondly often don't hold up to scrutiny years later [especially when one is a teenager when falling in love with something...]

Yeah, I guess I WAS a teen at the time, but that's besides the point.

Just as an example, I will tell you that generally I have been impressed with the product Catalyst has turned out since putting their imprint on the line. I have more issues with the CBT stuff, but that's not this forum. Compared to the rest of the generalized RPG industry, Catalyst stands out IMHO, and that's not sycophancy. Compared the the likes of Mongoose (some neat ideas, lousy implementation and what cheeze monkey actually writes that Munchy drek, anyhow?) or the coastal wizards and their attempt to turn a beloved landmark of the industry into a pen-and-paper CCG, or any of many other firms that tried to resurect a life-support-only RPG (Traveller comes to mind for T20 right off the top) and show some promise and originality only to go precisely nowhere? Sorry, Adam, but Catalyst has demonstrated the ability to turn out a well designed product, and I intend to hold you folks to that standard; Where you fail, I intend to call you on it, but where you make (and surpass) my expectations, I will extoll your many virtues to the uninitiated and attempt to corrupt their souls by introducing them to the reborn 6th World.

Now... you've got some promises to keep in the closing half of the year, don't you? I know I'm waiting like a kid at 23:59 on Christmas Eve for my new Seatle 2070 and 6th World Almanac; I would love to have those as an early Christmas present. And if you wind up releasing a digital re-make of the old Street Samurai Catalog, I won't even check my balances first before I whip out the credstick and memory chip for a download.


If we sound like we're bitching, ignore us; It's a sign of our devotion that we want every product to be as perfect as possible. (Mind you, taking our general consensus into account when writing/editing product in the pipeline wouldn't be UNwise, by any means.)
Prime Mover
Few things to keep in mind.

1. Criticism is written by critics.
2. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. (A bad adage to follow in most real world situations.)
3. You'll never please everyone.

Sales I would imagine are the real success indicator, it means someones happy....like the non vocal majority.

All that being said there's 6-12 folks who I'm pretty sure get out of bed in the morning to piss and moan. Most of the folks here on DS find them thoroughly entertaining. notworthy.gif
Adam
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jul 29 2009, 09:09 PM) *
Now... you've got some promises to keep in the closing half of the year, don't you? I know I'm waiting like a kid at 23:59 on Christmas Eve for my new Seatle 2070 and 6th World Almanac; I would love to have those as an early Christmas present. And if you wind up releasing a digital re-make of the old Street Samurai Catalog, I won't even check my balances first before I whip out the credstick and memory chip for a download.


Sorry, no Seattle 2070, ever! Will Seattle 2072 work? wink.gif

QUOTE
If we sound like we're bitching, ignore us; It's a sign of our devotion that we want every product to be as perfect as possible. (Mind you, taking our general consensus into account when writing/editing product in the pipeline wouldn't be UNwise, by any means.)


And it's something that we always do. But as I've said before -- we can listen to everyone, but we can't do what everyone wants. smile.gif
Ancient History
I just want to be fawned over and kvetched at for PACKS. The playtesters even liked it.
SincereAgape
On the Run was Fanpro, not CGL for the record smile.gif.

1. Ghost Cartels is a solid campaign book.
2. From what I've seen of it Dawn of the Artifacts: Dusk looks great.

Overall, the quality behind the CGL products has been above average, good, and very good. Fan Pro, towards the tail end of their Shadowrun legacy felt like they were pumping out books for production value. Even though the elitist board on Dumpshock will be negative and critical, one thing I cannot dispute is the time, energy, thought, and passion the current developers at CGL are putting into their product. That and I love how everyone from the company comes onto Dumpshock to interact with the fans. Over the past few months I have asked questions in threads and sent questions via PM, and each and every single time someone from CGL has taken time to answer it.

-That's customer service right there. Thanks guys.

-From a fan of SR since the early 1990s.
toolbox
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 29 2009, 05:41 PM) *
I just want to be fawned over and kvetched at for PACKS. The playtesters even liked it.


Depending on the exact implementation, this idea could easily remove the biggest hurdle I always have with new players - the sheer multitude of options regarding gear can be pretty overwhelming when you're just starting out. A moderate number of prebuilt gear packages for different roles sounds ideal.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 29 2009, 08:35 PM) *
Sorry, no Seattle 2070, ever! Will Seattle 2072 work? wink.gif

Oh! You know, you almost made me want to cry for a second there... mean old bad meanine man! Teasing's not very nice...

QUOTE
And it's something that we always do. But as I've said before -- we can listen to everyone, but we can't do what everyone wants. smile.gif

Oh, that's a given... as I understand there was a little internal ... friction with some of the 4A revisions, but that's understandable. Just don't listen to [REDACTED] or [REDACTED] or [REDACTED] or ESPECIALLY that total slot [REDACTED]! [REDACTED] doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, and [REDACTED] is just a slitch... and creepy. Ignore THEM and you should be just fine.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 29 2009, 08:41 PM) *
I just want to be fawned over and kvetched at for PACKS. The playtesters even liked it.

*Fawns dreamily over Ancient History*

You know, I thought those PACKS were just SOOOOOooo cool! I mean, did you get a look at them?



(Was that what you sort of had in mind? *Thbbbbbbbbbt*)
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Jul 29 2009, 08:34 PM) *
Few things to keep in mind.

1. Criticism is written by critics.
2. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. (A bad adage to follow in most real world situations.)
3. You'll never please everyone.

Sales I would imagine are the real success indicator, it means someones happy....like the non vocal majority.

All that being said there's 6-12 folks who I'm pretty sure get out of bed in the morning to piss and moan. Most of the folks here on DS find them thoroughly entertaining. notworthy.gif

Emphasis mine.

I find it's more like the "Squeaky nail gets the hammer" in my experience.

I LIKE discussions of how to improve on the existing framework, or how to fill in the gray voids that inevitably come up (Players exist for more resons than just to bribe the GM with food, you know). My favorites discussions are about intent and how to make the rules better fit the feel of the universe.

Let's face it, every game system has holes in it, and the Shadowrun system is a little... odd if you were to take it out of the 6th World entirely. It's for love of that ficticious setting that those of us who have BEEN addicted to fans of Shadowrun from the beginning keep putting up with the new printings and the erata(s) and FAQs and license changes and arguments over Waffles about how to read any given 13 words based on the (intentional) placement of a comma. I have pre-ordered every core rulebook since Augmentation, sight unseen because I believe in what Catalyst is doing with OUR 6th World, and I want them to continue... I consider my credstick sort of like my voter registration card: a means to make my voice heard and to re-ellect the guys in office.

The fact that I think somebody was asleep at the switch on that whole "ID Verifiation and Genuine Citizen Act" nonsense when somebody slipped legislation through committee at the last minute and stampeeded the lawmakers into signing something they hadn't even read is entirely besides the point!
Ancient History
QUOTE (toolbox @ Jul 30 2009, 03:48 AM) *
Depending on the exact implementation, this idea could easily remove the biggest hurdle I always have with new players - the sheer multitude of options regarding gear can be pretty overwhelming when you're just starting out. A moderate number of prebuilt gear packages for different roles sounds ideal.

I sincerely hope you'll be impressed. If PACKS gets enough acclaim, I might be able to pitch an e-book with additional kits and profiles.

QUOTE
*Fawns dreamily over Ancient History*

You know, I thought those PACKS were just SOOOOOooo cool! I mean, did you get a look at them?

Keep going...actually, I expect at least three WTFs and a couple people with mad calculator skillz bitching, but I have a little faith left. It's a small, twisted, blackened faith, much maligned and abused, but it remains.
Prime Mover
3 WTF's, 2 IRC's and 1 IMHO-STFU= Success!
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 30 2009, 12:06 AM) *
Keep going...actually, I expect at least three WTFs and a couple people with mad calculator skillz bitching, but I have a little faith left. It's a small, twisted, blackened faith, much maligned and abused, but it remains.

*gently pets and strokes the small, twisted, blackened, maligned and abused faith*

"Aw, poor thing... It's going to be ok... nobody's going to hurt you any more..."
otakusensei
I've got money in hand for Toolkit based of the GM screen alone. I have battle scarred screens form every edition of SR that I use to make a "GM Zone" while playing. Yet here's my wife with her fancy new World of Darkness hard backed screens...
kanislatrans
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Jul 29 2009, 09:34 PM) *
Few things to keep in mind.

1. Criticism is written by critics.
2. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. (A bad adage to follow in most real world situations.)
3. You'll never please everyone.

Sales I would imagine are the real success indicator, it means someones happy....like the non vocal majority.

All that being said there's 6-12 folks who I'm pretty sure get out of bed in the morning to piss and moan. Most of the folks here on DS find them thoroughly entertaining. notworthy.gif


um, as to #2. as a repair technician I usually find the squeaky wheel gets removed, tossed in the junk pile and replaced.. much more fitting to a dystopian future ruled by corporations grinbig.gif
puke
So this is still coming out, right? I thought I remembered a news post on the main SR4 site suggesting it would be hitting the street along side SR4A, but since then there has been no mention of it and its not on the upcoming product pages.

has it been dropped, or just pushed back? the compiled tables and improved GM screen are really compelling reasons to spend money.
Adam
I don't remember us saying it would come out at the same time as SR4A, although we announced it at the same time. It's still in progress!
SincereAgape
Adam, thanks for the update!

I'm looking to purchase this item, upon it's release. I am not asking for a street date, but is it possible this product will be out sometime in the fall?
Adam
I refuse to speculate on that.
BookWyrm
Looking forward to a quality product, Adam. That's all I'm saying.
nylanfs
QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Sep 8 2009, 06:14 PM) *
is it possible this product will be out sometime in the fall?


Technically there are an infinite number of "fall" seasons so he could answer yes and be right. At least as long as it's released before the rotational gravity of the Earth runs out and we become tide-locked to the Sun. But by then it might not matter. smile.gif
Penta
Now I'm wishing I had money to spend...

Boxed stuff is usually more expensive than just the books. What kinda price point is in mind for this thing?
Jaid
QUOTE (nylanfs @ Sep 8 2009, 08:31 PM) *
Technically there are an infinite number of "fall" seasons so he could answer yes and be right. At least as long as it's released before the rotational gravity of the Earth runs out and we become tide-locked to the Sun. But by then it might not matter. smile.gif

well, it'd probably be fall *somewhere* on the earth nyahnyah.gif
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