I have another question, so I decided to come back and consult the sages.

One of my players wants to construct a betaware move-by-wire system (Rating 2). It has a Availability of 18R, and would cost 480,000 nuyen. His justifications are that he has access to a facility, a Biotechnician contact to assist him in the tests, and his skills are as stands - Knowledge: Biotechnology 6 (Spec Cyberware), Knowledge: Implants 4, Knowledge: Anatomy 5, Knowledge: Biology 5, Knowledge: Engineering 5. With Technical Skill: Biotech Skill Group 4, and an augmented Logic of 7. He suggests that he would need to get the blueprints still, but wants to call it in as a (Serious Risk) Favor from his 4/5 Corporate Scientist Biotechnician contact. This called for opposed negotion test since Favor 6 was higher than the Loyalty 5, but he rolled 4 net hits so I guess it fits.

It all sounds legitimate, but I have very grave reservations about allowing one of my characters to create an item worth 480,000 nuyen within what amounts to only a third of my campaign... And it does not stop there. He has plans for Muscle Toner (Rating 4), a Suprathyroid Gland, Reaction Enchancers, etc. Essentially, this face/street doc can easily turn herself into a street samurai.

I guess my ultimate question is, to what extent do I allow a character to build their own cyber/bioware? What is an appropriate threshold for items costing in the hundreds of thousands of nuyen, with availabilities in upper teens? Or should I allow it at all?

Thanks in advance for all responses.

Sounds like he's been leveraging himself to do this very thing from the get go, with what you've described his skills as.

I'm a wee bit on the permissive side as a GM, but I'd probably let him attempt the tests, albeit I'd use these guidelines.

In the wireless world part of the BBB it states that if you build your own components, that the parts should cost half of the retail value of what you're building. I'm thinking that's a good guideline. So if the Move-By-Wire system costs 480,000 you should make him cough up 240,000. The availability of the components should be equal to the availability of the implant itself.

Once he gets the raw materials, he still isn't done. He needs to be able to assemble them together - this could be any combination of Hardware and Cybertechnology tests. Software tests will be needed as well to write drivers for the seizure-compensation system. And by the way, have you seen the intervals on software programming tests? They're quite long. You could slap him with a 1 Month interval on that and still say you're being nice.

Otherwise, I'd just use the rules, come up with some thresholds and intervals for extended tests, and let him try to make his own 'ware. If he's willing to put the time in to create it, hell, don't see any reason why not. But don't let him try to implant it into himself. Oh, and make sure you keep track of any glitches. It would be a nice reason to give him Buggy 'Ware, especially for making a homemade MBW product.

nah, let him buld it . . how is he gonna get it into his own body?
he will have to cut open half of his body, including such vital parts like the spinal cord and the brain stemand other such fragile places . .
in effect, he has to put himself under, then operate on his own back/neck while being in a comatose state . .

i don't think he was planning on doing the surgery himself.

psh, whimp <.<
ok, in that case, say no ^^

Hes trying to build a piece of tech that is insanely advanced. IMO, this is seriously advanced stuff, tens of millions of nuyen involved in it.. Sure, he can try, but Id say that as whats going to amount to a one off, the threshold should be massive.
Seriously, for the money, he should hire a Shadowteam to steal a MBW system that has been built to match his biologicals.

I'd let him get the MBW.

Honestly, this can be bought by a starting character with a 5BP quality.

He's using his contacts, leveraging appropriate knowledge and active skills, he knows he's pushing limits but wants to try.

The player should be lauded for adhering to the rules and trying to find alternative ways to get the stuff - not punished. I wish my PCs were as inventive.

- J.

Sorry jake, the quality in question I only think gives you avail 20 items, it says nothing about upgrading "grades" or moving away from alpha ware from the get to.

How does he plan to manufacture the parts for the MBW system, if the facility is specialiced towards making MBW components sure, but then again, how does he expect to get the raw materials for the MBW components, remember, when the corps make them they buy the materials in _BULK_ while me solo street doc buys enough for perhaps 1.5 MBW.. that would jack up the price alot on the raw materials.. Then even if he does manage to make those I would make them quite buggy since he does not have the program skills to make the program for the MBW, and I doubt he wants to put in some open source stuff, and if he plans on copying the code from another MBW system, is the system of the same manufacturer as his blueprints, and has he made his MBW acording to the plans 100% and not just 99.9998% acurate, if not, there will be performance issues etc etc.. And remember Delta ware is adopted to the users own body unlike alpha ware wich can be put into any body basicly. So the program for handling the MBW would have to be custom written anywya etc etc..

Basicly, imho, the cost of the MBW would be about the same as the original MBW.. atleast in the 400k range, mabye not the 480k.. =)

I would not disalow it.. but I would force him to roll VERY well, and I do mean VERY well to make the delta stuff. Like 3-4 sux more than he should for each comonent etc.. requiring about 100 or so sux atleast to make the damn thing.

Does he have the skills to operate the facility btw ? It is one thing to have the knowhow to make the items, and it is an entirely diffrent set of skills to actually program the robots and bugtest them to make the parts..

Building Delta ware from scratch as a shadowrunner should be HELLISH.. there is a reason only major corps deal in deltaware really..

Betaware, actually.

I'd probably only allow Alphaware, personally, with a "stock" facility. Alphaware and beyond requires a matching of body to ware, as well, which means testing and tweaking (not just getting blueprints). If he... acquired some of the more specific and unusual equipment required for betaware, and underwent the computer modeling then I'd allow it. But time frame... Months, maybe longer.

Remember that the price of cyber includes installation, so these items won't "sell" for that much unless he is installing them in people. Which would be awesome.

long interval, high threshold, half the cost of the MBW, and a number of different skills to develop it (cybertech, hardware, software).

The rules for building items were included for a reason. It's possible to craft things, it just gets incrementally more difficult the more complex the item is. For something like betaware move-by-wire systems, it's going to be obscenely difficult and time consuming, but the character seems to have been built for this, so I say let him go for it.

Then take his character out of his hands for a couple runs because he's too busy focusing on this massively time-consuming process.

For extra fun, have a megacorp notice his purchases and come looking into what could possibly require that many nanoservers...

i'd permit it, but as has been pointed out, there's materials and tool costs, time, and expertise. The PC might be able to provide some element of the expertise, and might also have a cyber facility, but he is unlikely to have the supply costs, and time spent working on it is time not spent running.
As for him becoming a street sam, that is an option for any mundane prepared to sacrifice the essence and invest in the skills. I wouldn't worry about it if he plans on picking up all his combat skills from softs.
Whatever you do, don't overlook the manufacturing costs and let him buy the ware for nothing.

I'd let him do it, without any rolls required. Make him buy the parts and pay his contact for the 1 year of missed work so the 2 of them can focus on building the 'ware.

And now that character is not playable for 1 years' worth of sessions. But he'll get his beta-MBW, no rolls required.

Quoted for proof.

By RAW, yes it can. I don't believe betware affects the availability under the new rules (suprisingly enough).



If the PC (and by extension his contacts) have all the right technical skills to design the item, then construction is you're only issue. I would agree the corp scientist could design, maintain and probably implant the wires. Whether or not he could construct it himself is another matter.

The OP never stated delta either - he said beta.

- J.

Thanks for all the responses, guys. This is why I come to Dumpshock.

Continuing from my original point, what would the build time be for a Move-By-Wire system? I understand it to be one of the more complex and advanced pieces of ware out there. So, how long would it take to build?

He has around a month and a half worth of game time (of frequent runs) before his character is forced to leave town? Would that be enough?

Well, I was looking at the Chemistry rules for threshold comparison, availability and costs, then I noticed in the Skills chapter a part of intervals. Building from the two, this is my suggestion:

Base Material Costs: 10% Cyberware Sale Price
Extra Equipment (Betaware): 50,000 nuyen
Design Stage (from Blueprints): 16/1 hour
Design Stage (without Blueprints): 16/1 month
Modeling (with program): 4/1 hour
Modeling (without program) 16/1 month
Construction (with nanoforge): 16/1 day
Construction (without nanoforge): 16/1 week

1 1/2 months is far from enough time, IMHO. See above with my post of "Say it takes him 1 calendar year with no rolls." I mean, maybe if he had some microfacs, maybe a factory and a lot of repair drones he'd get it done, but that's a lot of expended just to make it yourself. You could buy it cheaper.

don't forget that betaware's customized for his specific bio readouts. Not quite as precisely as deltaware, but it's still pretty customized. Which means that, even if he gets his hands on blueprints for the MBW, it's going to take personalized adjustments which will still require a fair amount of time spent on the design phase.

K10's suggestions look good.

All I would add is the necessity of a cyber or biotech facility, and even after all that time he still has to arrange for it to be implanted.

Don't forget to include hospitalisation and surgery costs, and recovery time after implantation.

Personally I don't think he'll manage it in a month and a half if he is also running in that time.