Two quick questions. For a module tomorrow.
1. Are there special rules for using firearms in point blank range? I assume that either the target receives a +2 dice to his dodge roll or the attacker takes a -2 for firing into melee. And is there an increased DV value because the attack is coming from point blank?
2. Sniper rifles. Let's say a enemy manages to enter into short range or melee range of a sniper who is camped out away from combat. Because of the weapon they are using, will they suffer a minus for attacking with a sniper rifle with a range of less then 4 meters? Also is it possible for a sniper to simply whip around with a rifle and let out a shot? By using a free action, or would that be one simple action to get into position, and then one simple action to fire SS (Or can they still fire in SA mode using only one action?)
Thanks in advance.
Full Version: Firearms in Close Combat
1. Using a firearm within point-blank range (within 1 meter) actually grants a +2 DP bonus to the attacker. See Arsenal, p.161
2. Using a sniper rifle close-range doesn't inflict any penalties on the first attack, but at the end of any Combat Turn where a sniper rifle was used this way (or as a melee weapon), the attacker needs to make an Edge test or start taking penalties. I think this has been newly implemented for the 20th Anniversary rules update.
2. Using a sniper rifle close-range doesn't inflict any penalties on the first attack, but at the end of any Combat Turn where a sniper rifle was used this way (or as a melee weapon), the attacker needs to make an Edge test or start taking penalties. I think this has been newly implemented for the 20th Anniversary rules update.
QUOTE (Andinel @ Mar 14 2009, 08:59 PM) 
2. Using a sniper rifle close-range doesn't inflict any penalties on the first attack, but at the end of any Combat Turn where a sniper rifle was used this way (or as a melee weapon), the attacker needs to make an Edge test or start taking penalties. I think this has been newly implemented for the 20th Anniversary rules update.
Page number please.
QUOTE (Andinel @ Mar 14 2009, 06:59 PM)
1. Using a firearm within point-blank range (within 1 meter) actually grants a +2 DP bonus to the attacker. See Arsenal, p.161
2. Using a sniper rifle close-range doesn't inflict any penalties on the first attack, but at the end of any Combat Turn where a sniper rifle was used this way (or as a melee weapon), the attacker needs to make an Edge test or start taking penalties. I think this has been newly implemented for the 20th Anniversary rules update.
2. Using a sniper rifle close-range doesn't inflict any penalties on the first attack, but at the end of any Combat Turn where a sniper rifle was used this way (or as a melee weapon), the attacker needs to make an Edge test or start taking penalties. I think this has been newly implemented for the 20th Anniversary rules update.
So um why not just use a SA hunting rifle modified for burst fire. Its not like a M1 Garand is likely to go haywire if you start shooting it in close combat, and you still have plenty of range.
There are not any special rules on this. The game doesn't reflect the reality of trying to shoot a rifle at someone when they are close enough to punch you. Then again it doesn't reflect the rather massive extra damage you get from a contact gunshot. These are both subjects for house rules if they bother you.
SR doesn't have any range that sights/smartlinks don't work inside of. As far as I know there are no special rules for snipers doing anything. They are just treated like another guy with a gun. Does spinning around to locate a threat normally take a free action (or any other action) in your game?
In reality getting into a hand-to-hand fight when you have a long gun means you can't use it to shoot them, and most sniper sights are incapable of focusing on someone 10 feet away, much less doing it rapidly. People who have taken sniper type courses have mentioned that they teach you to not attempt to use the scope if you end up in close, you point shoot, use barrel alignment or shoot over the top of the scope using the turrets for rough aim. If you have a 30 pound 57 inch long rifle you are not going to be doing anything rapidly with it other then shooting.
SR doesn't have any range that sights/smartlinks don't work inside of. As far as I know there are no special rules for snipers doing anything. They are just treated like another guy with a gun. Does spinning around to locate a threat normally take a free action (or any other action) in your game?
In reality getting into a hand-to-hand fight when you have a long gun means you can't use it to shoot them, and most sniper sights are incapable of focusing on someone 10 feet away, much less doing it rapidly. People who have taken sniper type courses have mentioned that they teach you to not attempt to use the scope if you end up in close, you point shoot, use barrel alignment or shoot over the top of the scope using the turrets for rough aim. If you have a 30 pound 57 inch long rifle you are not going to be doing anything rapidly with it other then shooting.
My houserule to that is:
When in Melee range, use Melee rules - even for Firearms.
(Melee modifier still applies, Point Blank only if Target is unable/unwilling to defend.)
When in Melee range, use Melee rules - even for Firearms.
(Melee modifier still applies, Point Blank only if Target is unable/unwilling to defend.)
Thanks for the responses guys. Especially for point blank attacks adding +2 DV. I'm thinking all I have to do is go re-watch the movie Sniper with Tom Berenger and Billy Zane. Those guys were kicking ass with pistols and sniper rifles to find house rules.
Just hit them with the rifle. If someone is in melee range with your dedicated marksmen, there are other big problems to examine.
QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Mar 14 2009, 03:56 PM)
Two quick questions. For a module tomorrow.
1. Are there special rules for using firearms in point blank range? I assume that either the target receives a +2 dice to his dodge roll or the attacker takes a -2 for firing into melee. And is there an increased DV value because the attack is coming from point blank?
1. Are there special rules for using firearms in point blank range? I assume that either the target receives a +2 dice to his dodge roll or the attacker takes a -2 for firing into melee. And is there an increased DV value because the attack is coming from point blank?
The are two modifiers that can come into effect:
QUOTE (SR4A page 150)
Attacker in Melee Combat
If the attacker is attempting to conduct a ranged attack while engaged in melee combat, or if he is aware of another character trying to block his attack within two meters of him, the attack suffers a –3 modifier.
If the attacker is attempting to conduct a ranged attack while engaged in melee combat, or if he is aware of another character trying to block his attack within two meters of him, the attack suffers a –3 modifier.
QUOTE (SR4A page 152)
Target Point-Blank
A target within one meter can be difficult to miss; apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack. Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in Melee Combat modifier.
A target within one meter can be difficult to miss; apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack. Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in Melee Combat modifier.
Lars
QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Mar 14 2009, 09:49 PM)
Thanks for the responses guys. Especially for point blank attacks adding +2 DV.
DP not DV.
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 14 2009, 08:14 PM)
People who have taken sniper type courses have mentioned that they teach you to not attempt to use the scope if you end up in close, you point shoot, use barrel alignment or shoot over the top of the scope using the turrets for rough aim. If you have a 30 pound 57 inch long rifle you are not going to be doing anything rapidly with it other then shooting.
u meen like no-scoping on team snipers in halo u should see my pwntages
Real men use iron sights.
As long as you do not have the Rifle in shoting position or you need to turn, I would rule that you take a "Ready Weapon" action before you can actually fire on a target.
cya
Tycho
cya
Tycho
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Mar 14 2009, 05:55 PM)
Real men use iron sights.
People who use extra high scope rings so they can use iron sights get the ability to use iron sights in the remote chance of a point-blank engagement in exchange for degrading their ability to use the scope all the time. Chin to stock welds suck. The people who epoxy a mini red dot on top of their scope are doing something that at least sort of makes sense.
QUOTE ("20th Anniversary Rulebook")
Use the Longarms skill when firing precision sniper rifles. While stur-
dier than earlier models, sniper rifles in 2072 are still not designed
for close-up combat. At the end of every Turn in which the rifle is
used in a running firefight (as opposed to a sniping situation), roll an
Edge Test. For every Edge Test failed, the weapon incurs a –1 dice
pool modifier until it is recalibrated with an Armorer + Logic (8, 1
Minute) Extended Test. The modifier is doubled if the weapon is used
in combat as a melee weapon or to defend from a melee attack.
dier than earlier models, sniper rifles in 2072 are still not designed
for close-up combat. At the end of every Turn in which the rifle is
used in a running firefight (as opposed to a sniping situation), roll an
Edge Test. For every Edge Test failed, the weapon incurs a –1 dice
pool modifier until it is recalibrated with an Armorer + Logic (8, 1
Minute) Extended Test. The modifier is doubled if the weapon is used
in combat as a melee weapon or to defend from a melee attack.
20th Anniversary Rulebook, p319
So they took the specific rule for the ranger arms sniper rifle and applied it to all sniper rifles. That is kind of lame, i liked each rifle having its own flavor.
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 14 2009, 08:01 PM)
People who use extra high scope rings so they can use iron sights get the ability to use iron sights in the remote chance of a point-blank engagement in exchange for degrading their ability to use the scope all the time. Chin to stock welds suck. The people who epoxy a mini red dot on top of their scope are doing something that at least sort of makes sense.
Hey, the legendary Eastern European snipers using Mosins didn't need optics to carry out their celebrated feats. They just needed that rear leaf sight which you could elevate to help you compensate for distance. And a fixed front sight.
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 14 2009, 07:01 PM)
People who use extra high scope rings so they can use iron sights get the ability to use iron sights in the remote chance of a point-blank engagement in exchange for degrading their ability to use the scope all the time. Chin to stock welds suck. The people who epoxy a mini red dot on top of their scope are doing something that at least sort of makes sense.
actually, they make scope rings with rails on top of them for just that reason.
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Mar 15 2009, 09:22 AM)
Hey, the legendary Eastern European snipers using Mosins didn't need optics to carry out their celebrated feats. They just needed that rear leaf sight which you could elevate to help you compensate for distance. And a fixed front sight.
No, they mostly used PE or PEM 4x scopes, with later ones using the 3.5x PU scope that was developed for the semi-auto Tokarev SVT-38, before they mostly abandoned the crappy Tokarev. The PU had extra high rings so you could use the iron sights, and got an inferior ability to use the scope.
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 15 2009, 04:16 PM)
No, they mostly used PE or PEM 4x scopes, with later ones using the 3.5x PU scope that was developed for the semi-auto Tokarev SVT-38, before they mostly abandoned the crappy Tokarev. The PU had extra high rings so you could use the iron sights, and got an inferior ability to use the scope.
Simo Hayha didn't use optics because he didn't want them to glint and give away his position. You can see a photo of him aiming with irons here: http://www.cracked.com/article_17019_5-rea...like-pussy.html
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