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Andinel
In SR4 p.164 (or SR4A p.177), it says that Force is measured on the same scale as metahuman attributes (natural 1 to 6). Does that mean that no spirit, spell, or focus can have a force greater than 6? Because if it does, the power of mages is significantly reduced from what I thought it was.

This kind of contradicts the statement that a spell can be cast at a Force of up to 2 x MAG, so I just want a clarification: which one of these is right? And how does it work with spirits and foci?
Zormal
Couldn't find a quote, but I think there's no hard cap on force. At least this is how I've always played, and the forums are filled with examples of spells and spirits over force 6.

Edit: Found an example where FAB III reaches force 11 (SM p.127)
Stahlseele
well, you can raise magic in theory ad infinitum/ad nauseum. so in theory, there's nothing to stop you from casting force 500 spells either . .
knasser
Heh! That is badly worded and it does imply that Force only goes up to 6. I can also tell you however that such a limit would contradict so much printed material it wouldn't even be funny.

Despite the wording, Force can most definitely go over 6. I take it to mean that you should use the attribute descriptions to get a feel for what Force means. I.e. A force 1 spirit is quite weak. A Force 6 is exceptional and very powerful.
Andinel
What about foci, then? Is their Force limited to 6 or can it go as high as anything else?
Stahlseele
everything that is limited by your magic wang can grow bigger as your magic gets bigger.
you have to raise your magic first, then there's no stopping you.
Neraph
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 15 2009, 04:24 AM) *
well, you can raise magic in theory ad infinitum/ad nauseum. so in theory, there's nothing to stop you from casting force 500 spells either . .

As long as your magic is at least 250.
Neraph
QUOTE (Andinel @ Mar 15 2009, 04:49 AM) *
What about foci, then? Is their Force limited to 6 or can it go as high as anything else?

From what I've seen, most player items are limited to force 6.

Dunkie, on the other hand, had himself killed to create the Dragon's Heart, a Force 10 Power focus (so the rumor mill goes).
Ayeohx
I've briefly checked the books and I haven't seen any information on maximum force levels except for the line on pg 177.

Can someone find a reference to a force 7 or higher spell in the new material? I'm fine with a Force higher than 6 but I need proof that it's possible; especially since this line seems to say that spirits, foci and spells max out at 6.
Muspellsheimr
Force is measured on the same scale as Skill/Attribute levels. It is not subject to the same limitations.

The maximum Force of a spell is Magic x 2. The maximum Force of a summoned spirit is Magic x 2.

There is no maximum Force of items, or just about anything else.

Maximum Magic (& thus spell/spirit Force) is equal to [6] + [Initiate Grade] - [Essence Loss, round up to nearest integer]. Initiate Grade has a maximum of Magic. In other words, you can Initiate, increase Magic, Initiate, increase Magic, etc for theoretically infinity Force.
Matsci
QUOTE (Ayeohx @ Mar 29 2009, 12:14 PM) *
I've briefly checked the books and I haven't seen any information on maximum force levels except for the line on pg 177.

Can someone find a reference to a force 7 or higher spell in the new material? I'm fine with a Force higher than 6 but I need proof that it's possible; especially since this line seems to say that spirits, foci and spells max out at 6.


Ghost Cartels. Yaje is force 8, CHIN YOU is force 9, and Jurojin has a double digit force.
Ayeohx
QUOTE (Matsci @ Mar 29 2009, 01:53 PM) *
Ghost Cartels. Yaje is force 8, CHIN YOU is force 9, and Jurojin has a double digit force.


Thanks for the research. It doesn't necessarily cover spells but between what you brought to light and Muspellsheimr's info I'm fine with force 12 powerballs. smile.gif
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