I've been thinking about revising the cyberware prices in SR drastically, for the following reasons (among others)
1 so that the PCs can't ghoul a few of the opfor and walk away with a fortune
2 you don't have to explain why someone would spend 5 mil on one person
3 I can justifiably have 'lower end' guards, gang members, cops, etc with ware
Basically:
Ware prices would be cut by about 80%:
smartlink was 2500 now 500
wired 1 was 55000 now 11,000
These would represent the cost of the ware 'in a box'
Then, surgery costs would be added, depending on the amount of surgery involved.
(but would still be much less than cannon costs)
Then a regular maintenance fee would be required for cyberware (like the vehicle maintenance rules, if they are workable).
This way a cop could get a smartlink, wired 1, and a datajack for a something like 20K as opposed to the 60+ he would pay now.
The follow-ups to this would be similar vast reductions in the cost of foci and decks, so that having 100K burning a hole in your pocket can get you something interesting as opposed to being a small stepping stone on your way to beta wired 2 (or whatever).
Has anyone else tried to make the SR economics make some sense?
Does anyone think this idea will be workth the time?
Any ideas on cost modifiers, surgery costs, maintenance costs, etc?
Full Version: Cyberware pricing system
Leave the prices the same for chargen, implement this only after-gen. This way everything will still be a little balanced, and you don't have delta-MBW adepts (second time today) screaming around, ripping things to pieces because they started with the million. 
Assuming Beta wired three:
500,000 * .2 = 100,000
x4 for Beta grade = 400,000
+ whatever the surgery and recovery works out to
Assuming a maintenance cost of 2% a month (does this sound reasonable?) That would be 8K a month in maintenance for the wired-3 alone.
Hmm, 2% might be a bit too much... Anyone have some good data on the maintenance of robotic factory equipment or similar stuff?
500,000 * .2 = 100,000
x4 for Beta grade = 400,000
+ whatever the surgery and recovery works out to
Assuming a maintenance cost of 2% a month (does this sound reasonable?) That would be 8K a month in maintenance for the wired-3 alone.
Hmm, 2% might be a bit too much... Anyone have some good data on the maintenance of robotic factory equipment or similar stuff?
I don't think the reduction in cost should be so drastic, at least not with the low-end ware. 500 
for a full Smartlink (limited eye display and simrig, the smartlink processor and a limited induction pad) just seems like too little. I could see perhaps a 50% price cut with much of the ware, though. Especially if you also include a clearer system for implantation surgery costs, because with some lower-end ware (Dermal Plating-1 and Wired-1, for example) the surgery would certainly cost as much as or more than the ware itself. Then perhaps include surgery cost at chargen, at minimum possible cost.
2% per month does indeed seem too much, since cyberware would certainly be manufactured so as to require minimal maintenance. 5-10% per year sounds more reasonable to me for most ware. That's just a hunch though, I have no data on similar RL stuff.
for a full Smartlink (limited eye display and simrig, the smartlink processor and a limited induction pad) just seems like too little. I could see perhaps a 50% price cut with much of the ware, though. Especially if you also include a clearer system for implantation surgery costs, because with some lower-end ware (Dermal Plating-1 and Wired-1, for example) the surgery would certainly cost as much as or more than the ware itself. Then perhaps include surgery cost at chargen, at minimum possible cost.2% per month does indeed seem too much, since cyberware would certainly be manufactured so as to require minimal maintenance. 5-10% per year sounds more reasonable to me for most ware. That's just a hunch though, I have no data on similar RL stuff.
I was assuming that the cyberware maintenance costs would be relatively high since they are 'constant use' systems.
Since we have some cops here, finding out about the maintenance costs of patrol cars (which can be driven near 24/7, in some places) might be another RL data point.
I am also assuming that the maintenance costs cover 'the occasional breakdown' as well as oil changes and other normal maintenance tasks.
Since we have some cops here, finding out about the maintenance costs of patrol cars (which can be driven near 24/7, in some places) might be another RL data point.
I am also assuming that the maintenance costs cover 'the occasional breakdown' as well as oil changes and other normal maintenance tasks.
Would bioware get a similar price decrease?
Something similar, and bioware would have the advantage of having no maintenance costs. But bioware would have a higher 'basic' cost. Which means that guys on the street are less likely to have it.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| I was assuming that the cyberware maintenance costs would be relatively high since they are 'constant use' systems. I am also assuming that the maintenance costs cover 'the occasional breakdown' as well as oil changes and other normal maintenance tasks. |
I agree regarding some ware (cyberlimbs perhaps, anything else clearly robotic, and some misc other ware), but some kinds of ware just don't seem like they would require much maintenance. The internal computer-type of ware for example, does not really require maintenance unless it actually breaks down, which should be a very uncommon occurrence.
and next you're going to ask that the maintenance of ware go up as it gets older! 
Mostly I was wanting a flat percentage to keep thing simple, and a still make the full borgs pay.
If I keep the maintenance costs high, then the real limiter on ware will be the maintenance cost, not the up front price.... Hm,, might be an interesting dynamic. (though it might make life harder on sams vs adepts)...
Sigh, it's for reasons like this that I put the idea up for discussion.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| and next you're going to ask that the maintenance of ware go up as it gets older! |
I'm not that mean.
A flat percentage would be fine, but there's so much ware that just doesn't seem like it would need a lot of maintenance that I think 5-10% a year sounds more reasonable. But like I said, that's just my opinion, and it might well be that 24% per year is more realistic. And since this is, after all, Shadowrun we are talking about, and if you wish for a certain impact on the shadowrunning economics of ware, then use whatever percentage achieves that goal.
What effects will come into play when someone fails to maintain their 'ware?
Dunno, consulting ye old RDB, I'd say that ware will fail fully after 1 year of unpaid maintenance. With one months maintenance being missed not resulting in any bad effect at all.
This would be something like
1: no effect
2-3: irritating glitches
4-6: light wound (on ware)
7-9: moderate wound (on ware)
10-12 serious wound
with a deadly wound effect on the cyber comming after the 12th unpaid month. This should give you plenty of time to come up with something.
This would be something like
1: no effect
2-3: irritating glitches
4-6: light wound (on ware)
7-9: moderate wound (on ware)
10-12 serious wound
with a deadly wound effect on the cyber comming after the 12th unpaid month. This should give you plenty of time to come up with something.
Does it cost the same to bring your 'ware back to code?
i.e. I've let it slide for 11 months and it's seriously fucked up. Can I simply pay a months maintenance to get back to normal, or must I pay 11 months worth to make up for the extra degradation?
i.e. I've let it slide for 11 months and it's seriously fucked up. Can I simply pay a months maintenance to get back to normal, or must I pay 11 months worth to make up for the extra degradation?
Sigh, you people are really working my RBD, I expect other people to be pulling things outa their RDBs right along with me. 
How about pay for the lowest cost based on the table? so if your ware is moderately wounded you pay 7 months, and it if has failed you pay 12 months?
How about pay for the lowest cost based on the table? so if your ware is moderately wounded you pay 7 months, and it if has failed you pay 12 months?
In that case you could pay your monthly maintenance cost every 50 days or so(shy of 2 months) rather than every month, since missing a month carries no penalty.
Perhaps the irritating glitches should start with month 1
Perhaps the irritating glitches should start with month 1
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| In that case you could pay your monthly maintenance cost every 50 days or so(shy of 2 months) rather than every month, since missing a month carries no penalty. Perhaps the irritating glitches should start with month 1 |
There should be an increased chance of failure after the payments are missed, not an absolute failure. I don;t know how the cyberware damage rules work in 3rd ed (not having M&M) but an increased target number to resist damage might be appropriate.
After all if I miss the 20,000 mile service on my car it doesn't fail immediately...
How about just using used cyberware? It reduces cost by 50%, while adding stress points that require regular maintenance and upkeep.
As far as the economics of it go I find the canon prices quiet reasonable when considering the costs involved. R&D is very expensive and with the rising medical prices today I shudder to think what it could be like by SR times. However, also considering the economics of it, SR hasn't changed the prices since first edition...that's a about a 20 year time period if I'm not mistaken. At the ideal rate of inflation (.02-.03%) the prices should double every 20 years. 
I'd agree with the used cyberware option if you want lower prices. Just my .02
I'd agree with the used cyberware option if you want lower prices. Just my .02
14 years, actually. It started in 2050 (or maybe the tail end of 2049, I don't remember) and is now in 2064, IIRC.
~J
~J
At 2.5% inflation (quite reasonable for a long time average), prices should double about every 28 years (1.025^28 ~ 1.996). In 13 years (SR has been running at least that long), they should increase by a factor of 38%.
Of course, we can assume that the real (deflated) prices of all the gear listed in any SR books have gone down by the same amount because of technological development, etc.
Of course, we can assume that the real (deflated) prices of all the gear listed in any SR books have gone down by the same amount because of technological development, etc.
I'd say something like this for a month list:
Month 1: +1 TN to tests made that would involve the cyberware (e.g. Jumping with Cyberlegs)
Month 2: +1 TN to tests
Month 3: +2 TN to tests, mark down a "damage" point
Month 4: +2 TN to tests, light damage done to player if a test is failed using the 'ware
Month 5: +3 TN to tests, light damage done on failure
Month 6: +3 TN to tests, moderate damage done on failure, mark down 3 "damage" points
Month 7: +4 TN to tests, moderate damage done if *ANY* failures on a test, not just if the result is a failure
Month 8: +4 TN to tests, moderate damage done if any failures, mark down 5 damage points
Month 9: +4 TN to tests, serious damage on total failure
Month 10: +4 TN to tests, serious damage on total failure
Month 11: +5 TN to tests, serious damage on *any* failure
Month 12: Cyberware completely fails, and must be replaced
Now, I'm not familiar with cyberware stress/damage rules, but the way I have it envisioned is that if you accumulate 10 "damage" points on a piece of 'ware, it's fried. This shows the building level of damage you cause when you don't give it proper attention. The damage points should be unless repaired at a percent of the base price (10% for 1 damage point, 50% for 5 points, etc.).
Additionally, if you want to be a stickler that people need to keep damage points off of their ware, you can make it so that the effects stay in the form of adding to the months without upkeep tally. So if I have one point of damage then I'd always have a "Month 1 of no upkeep" effect. You would of course ignore adding damage points if you had done so already (e.g., you've already gotten the 1 + 3 penalties, if you get to that level again you won't have to take the damage, but if you go up to the +5 you will).
That's my thoughts, at least...
Month 1: +1 TN to tests made that would involve the cyberware (e.g. Jumping with Cyberlegs)
Month 2: +1 TN to tests
Month 3: +2 TN to tests, mark down a "damage" point
Month 4: +2 TN to tests, light damage done to player if a test is failed using the 'ware
Month 5: +3 TN to tests, light damage done on failure
Month 6: +3 TN to tests, moderate damage done on failure, mark down 3 "damage" points
Month 7: +4 TN to tests, moderate damage done if *ANY* failures on a test, not just if the result is a failure
Month 8: +4 TN to tests, moderate damage done if any failures, mark down 5 damage points
Month 9: +4 TN to tests, serious damage on total failure
Month 10: +4 TN to tests, serious damage on total failure
Month 11: +5 TN to tests, serious damage on *any* failure
Month 12: Cyberware completely fails, and must be replaced
Now, I'm not familiar with cyberware stress/damage rules, but the way I have it envisioned is that if you accumulate 10 "damage" points on a piece of 'ware, it's fried. This shows the building level of damage you cause when you don't give it proper attention. The damage points should be unless repaired at a percent of the base price (10% for 1 damage point, 50% for 5 points, etc.).
Additionally, if you want to be a stickler that people need to keep damage points off of their ware, you can make it so that the effects stay in the form of adding to the months without upkeep tally. So if I have one point of damage then I'd always have a "Month 1 of no upkeep" effect. You would of course ignore adding damage points if you had done so already (e.g., you've already gotten the 1 + 3 penalties, if you get to that level again you won't have to take the damage, but if you go up to the +5 you will).
That's my thoughts, at least...
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| At 2.5% inflation (quite reasonable for a long time average), prices should double about every 28 years (1.025^28 ~ 1.996). In 13 years (SR has been running at least that long), they should increase by a factor of 38%. Of course, we can assume that the real (deflated) prices of all the gear listed in any SR books have gone down by the same amount because of technological development, etc. |
In other words; it all evens out in the end.
If you're going to reduce cyberware costs, you should also reduce stuff for Magically Active as well. I mean, if somebody can grab Wired 3 for virtually nothing, Alpha it (Or Beta/Delta if your GM allows it) and still have plenty of money - Why the hell should a weapon focus cost so damn much? Sure, it adds dice to an attack, but the guy using the cyber can now take less money at chargen and get more attributes/skills in place of it.
| QUOTE (6thDragon @ Jan 12 2004, 02:02 PM) |
| As far as the economics of it go I find the canon prices quiet reasonable when considering the costs involved. R&D is very expensive and with the rising medical prices today I shudder to think what it could be like by SR times. However, also considering the economics of it, SR hasn't changed the prices since first edition...that's a about a 20 year time period if I'm not mistaken. At the ideal rate of inflation (.02-.03%) the prices should double every 20 years. I'd agree with the used cyberware option if you want lower prices. Just my .02 |
The comment about inflation may well be true, but you have to consider the fact that tech prices generally drop over time. Compare the price of a top spec PC now to one 14 years ago - the SOTA rules should reflect that the old technology is in fact not as good, even though it cost the same as a current model.
Unfortunately the SOTA rules for cyberware are utterly *$^£ (to put it nicely) so if anyone has a decent way of making old reflex enhancers worse in comparison to newer reflex enhancers without making the user slower than a dead sloth it would be appreciated.
(It would appear that my typing has actually dropped to that of the above sloth considering how many people posted in the meantime)
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| How about just using used cyberware? It reduces cost by 50%, while adding stress points that require regular maintenance and upkeep. |
I second that. Low-end people have used cyberware. Alternatively, if you don't think people would go for used ware, just say used ware is cheap knock-offs made by street shops. Shoddy quality, but good price.
| QUOTE (Xirces) |
| ...so if anyone has a decent way of making old reflex enhancers worse in comparison to newer reflex enhancers without making the user slower than a dead sloth it would be appreciated. |
Again, try used cyberware. It won't get you the same market value as the SOTA equivalent, but they provide identical functionality. The permanent stress points can be attributed to design flaws that were eventually worked out in later models. As long as they keep up with regular maintenance ($$$), the used gear shouldn't pose an inconvenience too often.
| QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jan 12 2004, 12:21 PM) |
| Low-end people have used cyberware. Alternatively, if you don't think people would go for used ware, just say used ware is cheap knock-offs made by street shops. Shoddy quality, but good price. |
My street mage has some alpha skillwires from his days running with the Reality Hackers. Brand-new, it would have cost over
500k. If I'd left it there, he wouldn't have been able to afford any chips for the damn thing. Plus, I was having a hard time trying to justify so pricey an item given his street background.So I went with used 'ware instead. With all that alphaware fitting into only 1 Essence slot, he's not bothered by stress tests too often. I RP it as a Saeder-Krupp Sensoria unit with a bum thermal damper. It was SOTA when it 'fell off the truck' back in his gang days - 15 years ago. Nowadays, the damn thing gets uncomfortably warm whenever he runs an activesoft for more than an hour. If he wasn't still in tight with the cyberdoc that installed the obsolete POS, it probably would have blown on him by now (and taken half his head with it, too).
I just use new ratings for Cyberware.. And they go like this..
Rating Cost multiplier Essence multiplier Other
Standard x1 x1 None
Used x.5 x1 One permanent stress point
Low End x.5 x1.2 None
Crappy Quality x.25 x1.5 One permanent stress point
This way you can have even lower quality cyberware for much lower prices..
Rating Cost multiplier Essence multiplier Other
Standard x1 x1 None
Used x.5 x1 One permanent stress point
Low End x.5 x1.2 None
Crappy Quality x.25 x1.5 One permanent stress point
This way you can have even lower quality cyberware for much lower prices..
Can you combine used with low or crappy quality?
~J
~J
It may be 2063, but cyberware is still SOTA.
Paying say 50,000 for a cyberware implant puts you above the average human being. Does that make any sense?
Like c'mon. Wired Reflexes. They're replacing pieces of your spine and nervous system so you have the reflexes of a fraggin machine. It's a small price to pay.
If you're hurting for an upgrade that bad, get it used to reduce the price.
If you want a spanking new upgrade, do the street doc or the clinic installing it a favour.
Start the game with your upgrades for free, and the GM can have you owing some serious favours for some very powerful people.
The developers of shadowrun have put serious effort into the realism of the game. I find nothing wrong with the economics.
Paying say 50,000 for a cyberware implant puts you above the average human being. Does that make any sense?
Like c'mon. Wired Reflexes. They're replacing pieces of your spine and nervous system so you have the reflexes of a fraggin machine. It's a small price to pay.
If you're hurting for an upgrade that bad, get it used to reduce the price.
If you want a spanking new upgrade, do the street doc or the clinic installing it a favour.
Start the game with your upgrades for free, and the GM can have you owing some serious favours for some very powerful people.
The developers of shadowrun have put serious effort into the realism of the game. I find nothing wrong with the economics.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Can you combine used with low or crappy quality? ~J |
Yes, but Used Crappy Quality cyberware will have two permanent stress points and cost 1.5 times the normal essence.
Used Low Quality cyberware will have one permanent stress point, and cost 1.2 times the normal essence.
Also, I forgot to mention, though it would seem like it should be easier to get low end cyberware, truth be told, it isn't any easier than finding standard grade. In fact, depending on the contact you're dealing with, it may be harder to find.. At most, though, it'd be a +2 to availability, and only if the contact is one who doesn't deal in 'shoddy' merchandise.
And, though it may seem broken at first, that increased essence cost is harsh.. The difference might not be too big when dealing with cheap ware, like a Smartgun, but it's significant when dealing with better ware, like Wired Reflexes..
There are a few pieces of 'ware that are decently expensive but very Essence-cheap. Take, for instance, the BattleTac Cyberlink; at .2 Essence and ¥15,000, but Used and Crappy it's in the ¥2,000 range. For .1 Essence, that's pretty good savings.
~J
~J
Forgot I was dealing with people with tons of powergaming knowledge..
Well, fine.. Then just put a limit on what types of cyberware can be of crappy and low end quality.. No headware, obviously.. I don't think anyone would want a shoddy piece of electronics/mechanics shoved into their skull.. So for headware, double the essence cost of what it would be otherwise.. So used crappy headware would cost 3 times the [essence]
Also, no piece of cyberware with an availablity of over 8 can be of low end or crappy quality.. These types of cyberware are usually restricted, and always top of the line. Their creation is something beyond the scope of your typical chop shop, and will not work if purchased as low end or crappy quality.
Well, fine.. Then just put a limit on what types of cyberware can be of crappy and low end quality.. No headware, obviously.. I don't think anyone would want a shoddy piece of electronics/mechanics shoved into their skull.. So for headware, double the essence cost of what it would be otherwise.. So used crappy headware would cost 3 times the [essence]
Also, no piece of cyberware with an availablity of over 8 can be of low end or crappy quality.. These types of cyberware are usually restricted, and always top of the line. Their creation is something beyond the scope of your typical chop shop, and will not work if purchased as low end or crappy quality.
You have to understand, I've yet to let anyone in my group peek at Man & Machine, because I don't want to unleash that plethora of powergaming material on them just yet.. (My current group is VERY new to Shadowrun).. So stuff like the BattleTech systems aren't even part of their knowledge..
I plan on letting the occasional story about a new piece of cyberware slip, and allow the PCs to do legwork and find out about it.. But I want the special cyberware in M&M to be earned through role playing..
That's how I handle most of the new equipment in source books..
I plan on letting the occasional story about a new piece of cyberware slip, and allow the PCs to do legwork and find out about it.. But I want the special cyberware in M&M to be earned through role playing..
That's how I handle most of the new equipment in source books..
BattleTech systems? Ooh, now there's a powergaming can of worms
Fair enough, some restrictions can probably make it saner.
~J
Fair enough, some restrictions can probably make it saner.
~J
Well, it's my personal rule.. And since our current campaign is relatively low power, it isn't hurting anything..
Of course, if you wish to tailor it to your own needs, that works as well..
Perhaps only .8 the cost for low end, and .6 for crappy quality.. Then the cost will be more balanced towards regular games, where the PCs have tons of cash.. I think the essence multipliers are just fine, however.
And, erh.... I meant BattleTac, naturally..
Heh.. All this talk of Fasa games gets my head mixed up a bit..
Of course, if you wish to tailor it to your own needs, that works as well..
Perhaps only .8 the cost for low end, and .6 for crappy quality.. Then the cost will be more balanced towards regular games, where the PCs have tons of cash.. I think the essence multipliers are just fine, however.
And, erh.... I meant BattleTac, naturally..
Heh.. All this talk of Fasa games gets my head mixed up a bit..
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