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Stormdrake
I have been using the optional rule for adepts that allow them to take an extra powerpoint rather than a metamagic. A question has come up though, does this apply to Mystic Adepts? I have read the optional rule and it does not exclude mystic adepts in the text. I reliese as an optional rule a ST could simply say no but was curious if the question had ever been addressed officially or on the boards?
Angier
As Mystic Adepts also use Power points it should be a very good reason why a GM who allows this rule for Adepts should exclude Mystic Adepts.
Namelessjoe
i dont think i agree, If a mystic adept uses power points then they are adepts: as such they should be able to by pp with initiation...
ofcourse for power balance or effort balance if your woried about it then let them first buy a "powered potential" metamagic were from then on they can buy power points if they meet some GM fiat requirement ... or say they cAnt use more then there aloted points from the magic split (eg: 6magic 2to adept powers 4 to spellcasting) at a time and they cycle through there powers with a swift ritual like centering or somthing
pbangarth
Mystic Adepts are adepts first, mystic second. All rules that apply to adepts cover them as well, with the modification that they have turned some of their power towards casting spells and summoning.
InfinityzeN
I say yes they can use the optional rule (if you are using it in your game) but would not allow them to put those power points towards "Casting Spells/Summoning"
darthmord
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Mar 19 2009, 01:07 PM) *
I say yes they can use the optional rule (if you are using it in your game) but would not allow them to put those power points towards "Casting Spells/Summoning"


Well, Power Points are used to buy Adept powers. There are no 'Mage Powers' to be bought with Power Points.

What I don't understand is why Angier is taking the stance that if the optional rule is in use that one should exclude Mystic Adepts. He made the statement without context or basis behind it.
Draco18s
QUOTE (darthmord @ Mar 19 2009, 02:26 PM) *
What I don't understand is why Angier is taking the stance that if the optional rule is in use that one should exclude Mystic Adepts. He made the statement without context or basis behind it.


I think...

QUOTE (Angier @ Mar 19 2009, 10:25 AM) *
As Mystic Adepts also use Power points it should be a very good reason why a GM who allows this rule for Adepts should exclude Mystic Adepts.


He meant something different. If you look at the language structure:

"AX also does Y (that allows Z), therefore it's a good reason to NOT allow Z."

The not seems out of place.
Angier
"Why should a GM who allows Adepts to use rule x EXCLUDE (this means NOT ALLOW) Mystic Adepts from using it?!"

As Mystic Adepts use Power points (thus being Adepts) it (replace it with "there") should be a very good reason why a GM (who allows this rule for Adepts) should exclude (this means NOT ALLOW TO) Mystic Adepts from using it.

I meant that Adepts and Mystic Adepts are basically the same. Thus if you allow Adepts to use this optional rule it should also be allowed for Mystic Adepts as they both use it the same way.
Draco18s
Yes. You just explained your grammar. And I still have a logical fallacy over it.

Because A is B and the Rule says that B can do C then A should NOT do C.

(or in math:

A = B
B --> C
A -x> C
Angier
What about "Why should a GM exlude Mystic Adepts from using this rule? They are basically using the same mechanic as Adepts for Power points."
Draco18s
That's a question. Your original post was a comment:

"GMs should exlude Mystic Adepts from using this rule: They are basically using the same mechanic as Adepts for Power points."
Angier
That's not what I meant.

"GMs should better have a very good reason to exclude Mystic Adepts from this rule while allowing it to Adepts: They are basically using the same mechanic for Power points."
Draco18s
That makes better sense.
pbangarth
"And there was much rejoicing."

"Yayyyy!"
Coldan
Well, I think the point at this rule is: mystic adepts are adepts with spellcasting and summoring abilities. But some players and gms will say: mystic adepts are magicans without astral percetion and projection, but with adept powers. The instruction of the mystical adepts tells us, that they are a specialized group of adepts.

So a gm will really need a good reason.
Glyph
I can't read Angier's mind, but I think he might be concerned about a mystic adept who, say, spends his initiations to gain power points, and his Magic increases to gain Magical ability. Take a mystic adept, starting out with 6 Magic split 3/3, who initiates twice (taking power points for both) and raises his Magic twice, choosing to improve his mage abilities both times. Now the character is effectively 5/5, and he only had to raise his Magic to 8, not 10, to do so.

At first glance, it seems like a huge power boost. But the pure mage will have a Magic of 8 and two metamagics, while the pure adept (assuming he doesn't take any metamagics) will have 10 power points in adept abilities. So, to me, the mystic adept still seems balanced compared to the other two. They will be able, if they don't take metamagics, to more rapidly reach the level where both sides of their abilities are effective, but I don't necessarily see that as a drawback.
Caadium
QUOTE (Glyph @ Mar 19 2009, 10:11 PM) *
I can't read Angier's mind, but I think he might be concerned about a mystic adept who, say, spends his initiations to gain power points, and his Magic increases to gain Magical ability. Take a mystic adept, starting out with 6 Magic split 3/3, who initiates twice (taking power points for both) and raises his Magic twice, choosing to improve his mage abilities both times. Now the character is effectively 5/5, and he only had to raise his Magic to 8, not 10, to do so.


Just to clarify, and only because I've never thought of it this way, you are saying that using the Adept optional rule an adept with 6 magic could get a 7th power point, then raise their magic to 7 for an 8th power point? As I read the optional rule, it does say gain a power point so that would make sense. I've just default thought of that as that free power point raises your magic attribute for free.
Five Eyes
QUOTE (Caadium @ Mar 20 2009, 02:57 AM) *
Just to clarify, and only because I've never thought of it this way, you are saying that using the Adept optional rule an adept with 6 magic could get a 7th power point, then raise their magic to 7 for an 8th power point? As I read the optional rule, it does say gain a power point so that would make sense. I've just default thought of that as that free power point raises your magic attribute for free.


I'd asume that it explicitly doesn't raise your Magic. The big cap on this method becomes, if I'm remembering correctly, the fact that Adept abilities are capped by Magic - so if you have a Magic 6 Adept that initiates repeatedly, aiming for power points, he still can't break the 6-cap (which is easy to hit for Critical strike, for example) unless he starts directing some of that Karma towards actually raising the Magic stat itself. It means that a Mystic Adept that devotes his initiations to power points and buys Magic to be devoted to spellcasting stuff will essentially have a broad but not deep set of Adept powers - his split Magic stat will limit how far he can develope them, regardless of how many PP he has access to.
Caadium
QUOTE (Five Eyes @ Mar 20 2009, 12:25 AM) *
I'd asume that it explicitly doesn't raise your Magic. The big cap on this method becomes, if I'm remembering correctly, the fact that Adept abilities are capped by Magic - so if you have a Magic 6 Adept that initiates repeatedly, aiming for power points, he still can't break the 6-cap (which is easy to hit for Critical strike, for example) unless he starts directing some of that Karma towards actually raising the Magic stat itself. It means that a Mystic Adept that devotes his initiations to power points and buys Magic to be devoted to spellcasting stuff will essentially have a broad but not deep set of Adept powers - his split Magic stat will limit how far he can develope them, regardless of how many PP he has access to.


Correct. And although they'd be broad, taking that approach would also mean they were missing out on the benefits of metamagic; thereby limiting and balancing them even more. Using that logic, taking a free 'Power Point' when initiating means its an adept only thing, not something that can be applied to their spellcasting. This is also supported by the way Mystic Adept is written in the BBB.

Pg 79: "Mystic Adepts choose whether to dedicate their individual Magic attribute points toward somatic adept powers (gaining 1 Power point per Magic attribute point allocated) or towards Magic skills such as spellcasting and conjuring instead.


Since you are gaining a free Power point, and not a free Magic point, then it can't be applied to spellcasting abilities. RAW say Magic points become Power points, not vice-versa. And Magic applied to spellcasting is not purchased as an adept power as it was in previous editions.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (SR4A p.195)
For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the character
gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers.
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character
one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes,
including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers,
the character’s full Magic attribute is used.
Such a character will not
have as many adept powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able
to cast spells with the same skill as true magicians. Mystic adepts may
use their adept powers normally.
TKDNinjaInBlack
I was very happy when I found this rule because as I was flipping through Street Magic, I learned that initiation and the subsequent metamagics aren't really geared for adepts. There are a few, but When I was creating a master wish list for my mystic adept character, I could only find 8 metamagics that I wanted (and by wanted I am really stretching that term) and only 13 I could really take.

That is of course a lot of metamagics and while few people rarely have campaigns that go into the thousands of karma, I was planning for what happens when I get there, and couldn't figure out how to keep initiating and taking metamagics. A few (like atunement) can be taken multiple times for other items or animals, but it's still just wasting karma.

Where an adept's real focus lies is in his abilities and the added bonus of now being able to take power points for initiation is more of a draw to play that kind of character. They can quicker catch up to and surpass street samurai and gun bunnies now and while still a karma sink, get more bang for their buck.
InfinityzeN
And not getting Metamagic isn't all that bad, since there is an optional buy Metamagic (for 15 karma) rule. If I remember correctly, your max total Metamagics (and I would count every Adept PP taken as a metamagic) is Magic + Initiation. I'll leave it up to the individual GM to decide if an Adept can buy a PP through the "Optional Rule: Learning Metamagics " or not.
Caadium
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Mar 20 2009, 08:31 AM) *
there is an optional buy Metamagic (for 15 karma) rule.


What book is this in?
TKDNinjaInBlack
QUOTE (Caadium @ Mar 20 2009, 09:51 AM) *
What book is this in?


Street Magic page 52, Optional Rule: Learning Metamagics
pbangarth
OK, I'm sorry, I've looked and looked. Please, what is the page reference the optional rule for taking an Adept Power Point instead of a Metamagic? I promise I'll put a sticky in the book so I don't forget again.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Street Magic Errata)
p. 31 Tweaking the Rules
Add the following Tweak:
“Adept Initiation. Groups may consider allowing adepts
to gain 1 Power Point instead of a Metamagic at Initiation.?
pbangarth
Of course! The errata I wrote on p. 31, illegibly with fading pencil.

Thank you!
pbangarth
Just to be clear with the mechanics, then, an adept with MAG 6 would have 6 Power Points automatically.

He could Initiate and take another Power Point instead of a Metamagic, thereby exceeding his MAG by 1, despite the limitation stated in the BBB, p. 186. This would give him 7 Power Points.

Later, he could raise his MAG Attribute, and then automatically get another Power Point, raising his Power Points to 8, even though his MAG is 7.

Correct?
InfinityzeN
Correct
TKDNinjaInBlack
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 23 2009, 12:57 PM) *
Just to be clear with the mechanics, then, an adept with MAG 6 would have 6 Power Points automatically.

He could Initiate and take another Power Point instead of a Metamagic, thereby exceeding his MAG by 1, despite the limitation stated in the BBB, p. 186. This would give him 7 Power Points.

Later, he could raise his MAG Attribute, and then automatically get another Power Point, raising his Power Points to 8, even though his MAG is 7.

Correct?


Yes, but keep in mind that all of those adept powers that have levels limited by the magic attribute are limited by his actual magic attribute and not how many adept power points he's acquired.
pbangarth
Absolutely.
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