So, in the Runner's Companion, I noticed that if you choose Karma build, there is basically no reason to really play a human, since you start with all of your attributes at the racial minimum for free, and pay no cost for race. I've been told that this has been house-ruled so that you have to buy the attributes to the racial minimum from one, which means that you're merely getting the non-attribute benefits (low-light vision, etc.) for free, which still seems a little odd.

The thing is, that's a house-rule. I would really like to hear from the developers about what the intent was with this rule. Is there a balancing factor here that I'm missing? I also noticed that Karma built characters are much stronger; while I like them being more rounded, I also liked the "starting out" feel of BP characters. Any ideas on finding a happy medium? Perhaps I should just double the number of knowledge skill points, but say that half of those points must be spent on non-academic know skills?

But really, I mainly want to hear about the karma build/free attributes thing. It seems really odd.

As far as the power level goes, yes, 750 Karma is problematic if you want "starting" characters. 600 Karma has been suggested as being closer to an equivalent of 400 BP.

The race-for-free thing is there because Attributes scale up in cost, so rather than a set 10 build points, races with racial mods pay more for increasing abilities with bonuses. Take trolls, for example. In build points, they can spend 40 build points to raise Strength from 5 to 9, while a human spends 40 build points to raise his Strength from 1 to 5. In karmagen, though, the troll spends 90 karma to do that, while the human only spends 42 Karma. So they are NOT really getting it for free. Also keep in mind that even in build points, some races got more bonuses than they spent on buying their race - trolls spent 40 points, but got 80 points worth of Attribute bonuses, so even with build points, they had an advantage. They pay for being a troll under karmagen, it's just not as obvious. Yes, you can certainly start out with minimal stats, picking the race solely to get the bonus, but that leaves you without the main advantage of that metatype - I would rather pay the extra points to have a charismatic elf, strong troll, etc. than have a mediocre character with a few extra points more than the human for skills or whatnot. People who try to exploit the system that way are only shooting themselves in the foot.

IMPORTANT NOTE
Under the new rule changes in SR4A (the anniversary edition - and yes, these changes will make it to the normal SR4 errata), the cost to improve Attributes has increased from 3 x new level, to 5 x new level. The Runner's Companion errata will change the karmagen system to take this change into account, but until then, karmagen is in a state of flux, at least if you adopt the new rules.

I don't really see how they're shooting themselves in the foot. You save a lot of points, which you can funnel into Edge, more skills, etc. I can see your point with Trolls, perhaps, but most races have less extreme bonuses, so the cost difference is smaller. It's basically just a tax on future development, but even then...choosing a Troll is basically expanding your maximums for free. There is no longer any real "advantage" for humans.

There wasn't really before, though. The only race that came out worse under BP was elves. Trolls got a net 30 BP gain, orks got a net 20 BP gain, and even dwarves got a net 5 BP gain.

I could see being concerned about elves under karmagen, since, unlike the others, they don't have any real disadvantages, but for them, it's a savings of 15 karma over the human, hardly game-breaking. (The new errata for karmagen could go any conceivable way, so this is only talking about the "old" karmagen)

You know, I just realized why I actually like humans better under karmagen. Under BP, they were underpowered compared to anything, including elves, because they were stuck with those 200 points for Attributes. It was tempting to pick ork just to have a Body of 4 and a Strength of 3, and be able to raise the other stats higher. Under karmagen, with a 375 karma cap, humans can get their stats a lot higher. So they actually come closer to the other metatypes than they did before.

The fact that metatypes do not have a cost in karma is the subject of much debate. Ignoring the special non-standard critters which have abilities that are way to powerful to be free(free spirits and shapeshifters come to mind), some people think the metatypes don't need a cost because it costs more to raise their attributes up to average level, and some think that because the base attribute level is higher(and other assorted special abilities) that they should have a cost.

I personally fall in the second camp. I either houserule that metatypes and racial options cost their BP cost in karma, or they cost twice their BP cost in karma but you raise attributes like a human(ie, it would cost the same karma to get an elf to 5 charisma as it would to get a human to 3). Use either or neither as you see fit.

TheOOB brings up a point I had forgotten, which is that karmabuild works rather poorly for races like AIs, which have a high cost normally, but not because of ability bonuses. I guess the easiest fix would be to simply charge for races in karmabuild as a houserule. But thanks Glyph, for explaining the thinking behind the original rule. I just think that it breaks down once you look at the more advanced races, which funnily enough are introduced in the same book.

To OP:
Ancient History is the name de forum of the guy who wrote that. As far as I'm concerned, he should absolutely never be allowed to write rules. Though he seems like an absolutely great fluff author and exceedingly knowledgable on the SR & ED settings. His stated reason was that "orks, trolls, ... and metas are supposed to be common" therefor we'll intentionally undercost them. Quite frankly... as far as I'm concerned that's a great way to let a fluff author break any rules system.

The problem w/ the rationale on some things cost more is that it really only applies to trolls (and to a lesser extent orks) where exceptionally high bod/str scores can come into play. If you have a lot of time... here's the thread in question.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...5&hl=common


I actually have one other problem w/ both systems. Penalized stats mean nothing normally. A typical troll doesn't care that his max Cha is 4. It costsd him 20BP (or he saves a ton of karma just like a human does to raise it to 3 or even 4, no max attribute penalty cost under karmagen). And humans will be subpar so long as it costs rediculous amounts to reach dicepool parity w/ metas. For a none face char, they really only care that they have say 5 to 7 dice on an etiquette test to avoid critical glitches and unnecessary scrutiny IMO.

One other problem which comes out under karma and BP... skills are still less valuable than attributes. You're almost always better raising the attribute before the skill. The rule is you always want either 1 rank or a ton of ranks it seems. (1rank to avoid defaulting, or a ton of ranks to save karma to learn other skills later to round out). And the source of this disparity is that they use two radically different systems to build a character as opposed to advance a character. Using karma to generate fixes this and reduces the incentives to twink like this.

As far as they can't quite reach the exceptional dice levels they had under BP. I don't see this as a problem. The strength of karmagen IMO is that it allows and encourages more balanced characters. It also actively discourages twinking in chargen since you don't save later by buying now under a different system. It's not worth destroying the system to break that.




I was under the opinion karmagen worked reasonably well, if you made them cost BP=Karma, then modify the generation, apply attribute bonuses, buy up attributes, THEN APPLY ATTRIBUTE PENALTIES. (all stats min 1), suddenly that troll has to spend extra to get his mental stats up to par. Also, you might like to give 3x(int+log) karma in extra kamra only to spend on languages & knowledge skills depending on your starting karma. (IMO 500 under system ir about 400BP level). Enforce the half karma on attributes rule for EVERYONE.


NB: that was before the change from 3x to 5x karma (which is still a bargain compared to skill costs IMO).
Though w/ the 5x cost, then meta might be 'free' w/ penalties applied. But it's still a problem for things like AI's where they simply don't have physical stats and the BP cost reflects this (IMO an AI pays 110BP for phantom physical attributes it just doesn't have, still freeing 200BP for spending on a mere 5 attributes, compared to the 9 or 10 other characters need to spread those same points across). The only way I feel the devs can address this is to publish both a BP and a karma racial cost (which aren't necessarily the same or simply multiples of each other, or put a special note under a few exceptional cases like AI's which are different enough to justify a unique cost outside the normal system).

Honestly, I don't know why people choose the karmagen. I understand the flexibility is greater under karmagen, but the headaches are even more headache-y. I personally prefer the BP-gen, and am going to be taking a serious look at the Priority system again.

Now keep in mind I'm not flaming on you guys for choosing the karmagen, I'm just wondering why you prefer to use that (not kind words [not profanity] deleted) system as opposed to others.

And has anyone else noticed that the Karmagen system starts you off with 75 Street Cred?

Neraph:
Because of the nature of the system. BP encourages two things... as many soft maxed stats as you can. (w/ the rest left as low as possible, you can quickly raise them up to average with your first 20-30 karma). And then to hyperspecialize in a handfull of skills raised as high as you possibly can. Difficulties arise because long-term it's cheaper to buy some things later and some things right now in chargen specificaly because you're using two radically different point buys.

also IMO a lot of people get hung up on 2karma == 1BP... IMO it's a lot closer to 1.5:1 or 1:1

Think about it this way, a skill group (max4 chargen) costs 55karma, or 40BP (1.375:1 ratio)
Skill group raised to 1: 10karma or 10BP (1:1 ratio), Raised to 2: 20karma or 20BP (1:1 ratio)
An attribute raised from 1-5. 42karma, or 40BP (~1:1 ratio)
An attribute raised from 5-9. 90karma, or 40BP (here's the 2:1+ ratio and about the only place you find it, trolls are the only race which goes up this high, most of the rest are limited to +1 to 3)
Oh and chargen focuses are another gold mine in the ratio for mages (reduced attunement cost)

Remeber points spent on attributes help all skills linked to that attribute. Points spent on skills only affect that skill. So think of attributes as super-skill groups.

Because now consider above, until you get 3 or more ranks in a skill group it costs you the same in karma as it does in BP. From a long term perspective you're better off buying them later and raising your existing groups to 3 or 4 to start seeing linear cost savings. (IMO: skills suffer badly for the first rank costs double).

Or another example of abuse. Under simple BP. (which karma made even worse... which is IMO the primary reason for the howls of outrage)
An ork who just doesn't care. 5 bod is 5 bod for soak he's an intuation based mage! And low-light vision for free (helps w/ vis mods against spellcasting)
4->5 bod, 3str free... rest going elsewhere. 15karma or 30BP (20 race which doens't cost against attr limit). The rest is free to be spent on a higher magic rating or the like or making the mage even tougher (more armor w/ even higher bod than a human can)
If it was a human....
5bod, 3str. 60BP or 57karma. All of which count against the attr limit!.

net 42 karma saved. 42karma is enough to raise the orks magic from 1->5 before we even start doing anyuthing w/ the human! If we 'equalize them' we now give the ork 'human looking' for 5BP qual, and the human 'Night Vision' for 5BP qual... almost identical from RP perspective!

When you're talking numbers like that, now suddenly balance issues are more than minor. I think everyone accepts that perfect balance is impossible. But if you're going to try and set any kind of a point buy for things, an effort should be made to keep balance issues minor.

I could live with either of TheOOB's house rules. I don't think they're necessary, but they don't cripple metahumans. Falconer's house rule, though, would, and is needlessly complicated (plus, who needs to go back to how SR1 & SR2 did it?).

Neraph, karmagen is not that complicated. You just need to make yourself a little table of Attribute and skill costs, and you are good to go. It gives characters with decent Attributes with a wide spread of skills in addition to being good at their core skills. Characters are more powerful, but make more sense than they do under BP, where you can either min-max or be ineffective (although BP is better when you go a bit over 400 BP).

Priority system has not even come up that much. Does anyone even use it? It falls flat on its face, because most characters require "Priority A" in several areas to be good. And for something that is supposed to be for newer players, it is actually more difficult to use (and get a usable character) than doing it with build points.

I still don't see how karmagen is any "more better-er" than BP. The BP system keeps it much more simple, and karmagen seems to punish metahumans, let alone other racial choices (metasapients, AI, Wild Spirits...).

Exactly the opposite. pointwise, Karmagen as published gives nothing except incentives to metas. And zero reason to consider human.


Glyph:
My only issue w/ TheOOB's is that is still encourages the worst types of abuse. And is probably a little worse on that score.

Take above example... ork intuition mage. 20karma for ork (garrr). To get say bod7 (great point for lots of armor and good soak and natural healing of things like drain). He pays even less under his system than he would under karma. (bod7 for a human is pretty much inconcievable as the exceptional attribute qualities are rediculously expensive IMO, maybe if the quality gave the extra rank they'd be worthwhile). And he never addresses how cha and logic would be treated...

At the end of the day a dice pool is of either of size A or size B. If you pay significantly less for A >> B for no real cost. Then you have a problem.
How much is it worth to have. I'm fine w/ this, no such thing as perfection... but it should be limited to say no more than 2-3% (10-20karma on a 600karma character)

I should note that doing the math on my second houserule (races cost 2xBP cost in karma, but positive racial mods are applied after you buy attributes) usually would reach a net bonus in karma in the 5xattribute cost. A dwarf who manually uses raises their body to 3, and willpower to two is getting (20+15+25) 60 karma worth of attributes for a 50 karma meta. Not bad. This gets even better if you focus on your metas attributes, eg the troll is more valuable if you focus on strength and agility.

I don't like the idea of hitting metahumans with their penalties at chargen, subtracting from their attributes. This is essentially how it worked in SR3, and as a result nobody ever played metas, unless they were an Elf gunslinger or some kind of melee troll. I think I'm just going to go back to BP in the future; it's much easier and faster for chargen.

Metahumans aren't as "free" as you would think for having no base metatype cost, but they aren't "punished" - you can make viable elves, trolls, whatever. I guess I like it because it's less tight, point-wise, than BP, so you don't have to take dump stats or do other min-maxing tricks just to get a usable character. And since you are paying with Karma, you don't have to worry about "I want to start out with this, but it would be cheaper to improve with Karma once the game starts."

Also, despite what you have heard about it creating "balanced" characters, you can still be as badass. In BP, you could sacrifice in other areas to have an effective gunslinger. In karmagen, you can make that same gunslinger, and also have enough points to give him some other skills.


@Falconer:
TheOOB's house rules don't work like your example. In version 1, the ork pays 20 karma to be an ork as a flat cost. In version 2, the ork pays 40 karma to be an ork, but gets his racial bonuses added after buying Attributes. Like I said, I don't personally think they are necessary, but I could certainly live with them.

In version 1, the ork comes out 16 Karma ahead of a human, the troll comes out 38 points ahead of the human, the elf comes out 15 points behind the human, and the dwarf comes out 4 points behind the human. That's fairly reasonable, since the ork and troll came out ahead (by 20 and 30 BP, respectively) under BP, too. The elf and dwarf are screwed a bit, but it's a liveable amount.

In version 2, the ork who takes racial minimums is 4 points under a human, the troll is 2 points under a human, the elf is 45 points under a human, and the dwarf is 29 points under a human. The ork who soft-maxes the attributes getting bonuses is 20 points over a human, the troll is 16 points over a human, the elf is 24 points under a human, and the dwarf comes out 2 points under a human.

NOTES: Comparing points to the human, if they seem off, remember that humans get +1 Edge, a 6 Karma bonus, which I factor in when comparing them. Also keep in mind that the SR4A rules make a lot of these calculations moot until we get the errata for Runner's Companion, which will adjust karmagen to take the SR4A rules into account.

Setting aside house rules for a moment, could you live with the standard ruleset and a player who makes an AI character, or a Free Spirit?

KarmaGen is not really suitable for AIs or Free Spirits.

Personally, I would tend to treat it as a quality, instead, like drake or infected. That's a house rule, though (although I hope the Runner's Companion errata addresses this - it's the area where karmagen is truly broken).

BPs sure aren't worth it for Free Spirits IMO. I tried to make one under the BP system and was less than impressed. A lot of work for something not terribly effective.

Doing the same under Karma-gen was noticeably better.

Glyph:

Please enlighten me. I have an ancient SR1 book, and my SR4 books. I was out of it for a while, so I'm not quite up to speed when you say that adding a modest penalty cost on penalized attributes kills metas. (also since pre-SR4 attribute splitup were often in the teens so those penalty costs would be a LOT higher in comparison I'm guessing). I understand that might be wrong, so explain the cost & difference to me please.


Why to discuss this now:
The rules are being worked on now. The time to be heard is now. Not after the errata gets published and all we can do is complain.


My views: (please feel free to disagree here)
Metas should not be free.
The cost for a meta should reflect the investment in an average attribute, not an exceptional one.
It's the really extreme cases which give the system problems
Undercosting the metatype is just as bad as overcosting it

I don't want to see metas not played, I just want to see some incentive to make human a reasonable pick, while not handing metas scads of 'freebies' just to precompensate for higher ranks in attributes they may or may not take. The only way I see to allow them a bonus in their strong attributes and not see them then 'save' the karma and invest in their 'dump' stats is to put a penalty cost on the dump stats related to the max reduction. (is 5 extra karma per rank for an attrib capped at 5 going to break the bank? That's the same as them spending 62karma to raise it from 1->5 when it would take a human 60 to take it from 1->6).

Okay, first, here's my analysis of one of TheOOB's house rules, where the metatype pays its cost in karma.


Your version would do that, then make the ork and troll pay an extra penalty on top of that. For example, if the troll wanted a Charisma of 4, he would have to pay 60 karma, instead of 27 Karma, or an extra cost of 33 Karma. And that's just one, out of four Attributes that he will be penalized on. And he still pays 90 Karma if he wants that Body or Strength of 9. And that's the old Attribute costs.

So that's why I think your house rule would be too excessive. I think TheOOB's rules already make humans the best all around option - there's no need to gimp metahumans even more.

If that's the case, why not just give the troll a 'discount' on karma buys to raise those attributes.

Using the 5xrating new karma cost as a guideline.


Human: 1->6. 10+15+20+25+30==100karma
Human: 1->5 70karma
Human: 1->4 45karma
If you penalize troll cha by an extra 10karma/rank. 1->4 is 10+10, 15+10, 20+10. 45+30==75karma (almost the same as a human going 1->5)
If you penalize troll Log by an extra 5 karma/rank: 1->5 is 10+5, 15+5, 20+5, 25+5. 90karma (only 20more than human)
Now that those are within reason... offsetting them w/ reasonable discounts in bod & str.

reducing str by 20/rank.
5->6 (30-20==10), 6->7 (15), 7->8 (20), 8->9 (25)

NB: mathematically the above is the same as 'buying base attribs' as a human, then applying the meta template AFTER the stat buy.

For a system like this to work properly, the cost of the meta MUST be higher than if no points were spent on any attribs otherwise you leave open the problem of the ork intuition mage (strong 'dump' stats for zero investment). Hence why I suggest placing the meta cost as if 'average' stats were bought. (straight 3's, then apply template). Look at the karma difference between meta and basic stat. (at the end of the day, 7 dice in agility beats 5, all else being equal before skills etc.).

Explanation: buying the template then, costs you more, and you get a better 'value' the more you invest in their strong attributes, and the less you invest in your weak ones. But the system as it is now... the template costs less than even the lowest level stats which come with it, which is why it's so abusable.

Maybe I should have mentioned, I don't actually apply metatype penalties, I just leave them as attribute caps. In my game a troll would cost the same amount of karma to raise their charisma as a human, they just couldn't go above 4. The attribute cap is penalty enough in my mind.

Which would make the following(not counting human bonus to edge).

Dwarf(Base Attributes): 23 karma behind humans(50 cost - 6 body - 6 willpower - 15 strength)
Dwarf(5 base): 25 karma ahead of humans(50 cost - 18 Body - 18 Willpower - 39 Strength)

Elf(Base Attributes): 39 karma behind humans(60 cost - 6 agility - 15 charisma)
Elf(5 base): 3 karma behind humans(60 cost - 18 agility - 39 strength)

Ork(Base Attributes): 2 karma ahead of humans(40 cost - 15 strength - 27 body)
Ork(5 base): 62 karma ahead of humans(40 cost - 39 strength - 63 body)

Troll(Base Attributes): 4 karma ahead of humans(80 cost - 42 body - 42 strength)
Troll(5 base): 100 karma ahead of humans!(80 cost - 90 body - 90 strength)

NOTE: If using shadowrun 4eA rules, the metatypes get an even better deal.

I apply costs to make the meta's have value and make the human a viable option, as well as to encourage meta's to excel where their meta is good at(unlike the base karma gen which encourages trolls not to raise their body and strength beyond their base values, but also to make it so you don't get penalized to playing against type.

I think your method is a bit complicated.
If you wanted to include all such stuff into the attribute cost then you'd have to buy them last and factor all qualities in.
For instance you penalizing a hermetic ork mage for the nice drain stats of an ork hedge witch would be unfair.
Also your system is rather hard on exotic things like troll faces etc.
I think with that system you railroad characters into a certain role, which isn't all that good.

If you don't factor in the penalties(just keep the meta max in mind) then you don't penalize people for playing off type, they just get more efficient if you play to type.

It seems more like you're penalizing people for not min-maxing to their racial stereotypes. I kind of like it now that the average Ork shadowrunner has fairly average intelligence.

There isn't a penalty though, hell, even if you don't raise your strength and body an ork still comes ahead of the curve. It's just cheaper for the big tough goblinoid to get a huge body and strength.

If you're forcing them to pay extra points to not be a retard then yes, it's a penalty. Back in 3rd edition, nobody in their right mind was trying to play ork or troll deckers, because it was absolutely ridiculous. The amount you had to pay to get out of the retard hole they started in left you with nothing, and you wound up paying extra points for a decker who was about as strong and tough as a human, and slightly less intelligent. 4th ed lets you play a hacker who starts out about as smart as anyone, and has slightly reduced potential (it's like 1 die; hardly a big deal) but is physically quite different from a human. By comparison, humans are still pretty awesome for social reasons and because of the extra edge. The system works.

I don't make them pay extra to be smart though. A human and an ork will both spend 27 karma to get 4 logic, the ork just has a lower cap. Whats the difference?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how much extra the cost was in the SR3 days. I missed out on that phase.

I think I understand the resentment.. A penalty spread across 10-20 attribute points yeah adds up quite a bit. But in 4th when you only have 4-6 ranks and you don't have quite so much pain.

Using 5xrank karma costs.
But when you're talking about the difference between a human paying 70karma to raise Logic to 5, and a orc 90karma for same w/ a very modest penalty (log6 costs a human 100karma). I don't see that being a huge deal. Especially when the orc is getting reductions in/head start on karma costs for physical stats.

And what is wrong from encouraging an ork or troll from investing in bod & str?

Another thing which I think is being missed here, is enhanced attribute caps are a big advantage. From that aspect, metas are premade 'enhanced attribute' quality packages.
A street sam doesn't care that his cha is capped at 4. He only cares that he is tough and has adequate cha/social skills to get along in life.

I just think the karma system needs to be edited for three reasons.

The first is that the metatypes have value. You have to pay for everything else your for your character, but a troll can start with 5 body and strength for free, no cost. Thats just not right. 5 body and strength is worth something, a lot for a human.

The other is that the karma system encourages meta's to avoid raising their core stats. A troll starts with such a high body that it is incredibly expensive to raise it further, to raise it 3 points to 8 costs 63 karma! You could raise 4 other attributes to 3 with the karma and still have karma left over. You get an incredibly small return for your karma invested. Thus it stands to reason that it is better to be a troll(or an ork) and not raise your body and strength at all, and use all your karma you would have spent there to raise other attributes. Now you have the body and strength of your human street sami, and have maxed out all your other attributes as well for dirt cheep!

The third reason is that it makes the system incompatible with all the other new options in Runner's Companion. Being a shapeshifter or a free spirit has worth, and I want to be able to be one and use the karma system.

SR3 Attributes were done very differently than SR4 Attributes. There were only 6 Attributes, and you could have up to 30 points to distribute among them - you had to buy the entire rating, though, instead of having them start at 1 and go up from there. Still, 30 points is an average of 5 per Attribute - taking a single dump stat of 2 or 3 would let you begin with several maxed-out Attributes.

Elves and dwarves had the same modifiers that they do now, while orks and trolls had both bonuses and penalties - giving them a lower net bonus, but you need to keep in mind that SR3 Attributes had more points to begin with, so it was still fairly easy for an ork or troll to pump up their physical stats. One of the flaws in the Priority System design was that for a mundane character, who spent the top three priorities on Attributes, skills, and resources, taking priority D to be an ork or dwarf essentially gave you that metatype for free. The point build system made them cost 5 points.

Orks and dwarves always made out the best under any system, it seemed. Very little penalties, great bonuses. Both races made excellent whatever-Ork's Logic could easily be counteracted for a decker, Dwarves were some of the best mages around. Elves and Trolls both got nailed a bit-while Trolls could dump the physical stats and still end up decent, both were Priority C, and actually had to make a sacrifice to get it. Elves, as usual, ended up at the lowest end of the stick. (Odd, considering how much the IEs seem to get away with. )

As for the karma orks/trolls, what I see most often is Strength left alone(the stat is near useless anyway by RAW, and if you are going to dump a stat that's usually the one, and they start good anyway-if they want damage, they can easily just snatch a combat axe for Str/2+4, get +3 DV to Blades and go to town easily with a 5 strength), and they will pay for the Body, however. I really don't see a problem, and haven't seen a problem in play. In theory, I can see some issues with it. (Then again, I'm someone who actually likes the useless Strength stat and elves, so I end up paying more for crap that rarely helps anyway. )

How was post-chargen advancement handled then in SR3. Or you just didn't?

I'm familiar w/ the concept of the priority system, just not familiar w/ the SR3 particulars.

IMO: the biggest advantage of karma generation rules is that it unifies generation and advancement into a single system.

If i recall, in SR3, the attributes were only two times the new amount by RAW. But somehow it worked out.

If I had to take a gander, it was:

-The fact that skills cost less if they were equal to or below the linked attribute, and more if they weren't. So if you had, say, a Quickness 5, you could buy Pistols 5 for normal cost, but it was more expensive to buy a 6. So you could decide to raise the attribute to make your skill costs cheaper...but sometimes it was STILL cheaper to raise the skill. Skills were cheaper, in any case, to raise in the SR3 days in general, I think. But there were no groups, on the downside.

-Again, I'm squeezing my mind here-but if i recall you could purchase more than your racial max in those days. Not that I actually met anyone who did it.

-You received enough attributes at the start if you took Priority A or B that you really didn't *need* to increase them anymore.

For a combat character, it was probably, from a numerical standpoint, to increase Quickness, Intelligence, Willpower, and Skills. Skills used to be Skill Rating + dice from your Combat Pool. The three listed stats all increased your combat pool. Oh, Body was nice for soaking indeed, but everyone had the same damage track in those days, and if you were a combat-type, you probably had this very high coming out of the box. Strength actually did mean a damn in SR3 as well. You could not, however, add more dice from your combat pool than you had in the skill rating-so someone with Pistols 4 could only add up to 4 dice. Which meant, to really toss the dice, you needed to increase the skill.

Yet another thing-your combat pool was used for defense as well, so you didn't want to blow it all on attacking. So again, you wanted a high Skill to be able to toss the dice. (Keep in mind the average target number was 4 in those days, and modifiers added or took away from this.)

Now, for non-combat characters, Skills were even more important, because Combat Pool did not affect them. There were some brain boosters that allowed you a task-pool, which let you boost technical skills. But you needed the raw skill in these if you really wanted to do the harder stuff. Social skills also.

So while attributes DID mean something(and some, like Strength, were even better-and if I had to also say Willpower, since a mundane with a 6 willpower could actually shrug off some direct combat spells. A mage used to have a target number for Mana/Stunbolt equal to the target's Willpower. Body for Powerball/Bolt. The spells were still dangerous, but it was something to think of), skills were very important as well, so most folks funneled their Karma into skills. I know I played a couple characters for awhile in those days, and I can't remember really raising Attributes all that much.

Again, just my guesses.