Dumpshock Forums > Old time fan coming back...

silva

Mar 22 2009, 10:12 PM

Hi there. As an old time 2nd ed Shadowrun fan, I stayed in limbo since 3rd edition came out. But the new anniversary edition got me excited.

So I bought the pdf and am reading it right now. But it seems a whole new world out there. Im trying to do some basic character to learn the new system but Im finding it dificult.

1) It seems there was some changes in the basic runner types. What were they?
(Riggers - i mean the old vehicle pilot ones - got less almost unimportant now?; Differences between Hermetic and Shamanic traditions got diminished? ; hackers got all-powerfull ?)

2) My assumptions about gear got screwed. What changed? (bioware seems really powerfull now, making cyberware seem thing of our grandpas).

3) Is there some general tips for the Point Buy creation process?

And what else would you guys tell for an old dog who is eager to jump back in the wagon?

THanks!

Fix-it

Mar 22 2009, 10:23 PM

1: deckers got replaced by hackers. technomancers were added. Riggers got semi-blended with hackers, at least in terms of rules.

2: bio better than cyberware? in some respects. not in others. cost and avail, for one.

3: do not forget to save points for contacts.

Draco18s

Mar 22 2009, 10:28 PM

1) Those changes happened a while ago, really. Riggers are still around, in concept, but tend to be just a variation on the hacker, who is not all-powerful.

2) Bioware isn't better than cyber, but advances in technology have made it less detrimental to a character's Essence (of course, cyber got better too)

3) Soft-max attributes, it's not worth buying the "final" point. Actually, wait, with SR4A (the anniversary edition) it might be. Attributes were (new)*3 and SR4A changed that to (new)*5, so while it used to be 25 BP vs. 18 karma, its now 25BP vs. 30 Karma (more for metas), but with the increased karma awards it's still likely better to raise it later.

Don't buy Gymnastics and Dodge. Gymnastics is almost always just as good (and comes in a skill group).

hobgoblin

Mar 22 2009, 10:29 PM

one thing to note about 2 is that where there was a overlap between cyberware and bioware, one of the two have been removed and the other have been made to match the stronger variant.

usually this seems to have resulted in a enpowerment of the bioware variant, as usually it was that it was weaker but also more compatible with the body.

now its basically that the side with the least essence cost gets its cost cut in half...

as for the vehicle rigger, note that the VCR gives a -1 treshold modifier. this can be really important as your looking at a average of 3 dice pr +1 on the treshold. this means he will have a easier time avoiding crashes and doing stunts.

Stahlseele

Mar 22 2009, 10:48 PM

Strength?
most useless attribute in game, except for certain specialist builds.
Bows?
still rediculess in terms of power, when paired with high strength built.
Privacy?
yeah, right, htere's RFID-chips in your coffee nd scanners in your underwear that send out the information of how much coffee of which blend is right now in which part of your digestive system.
Privacy?
yeah, right, nobody seems to care, because that would make it impossible for runners to exist in that society, like, at all . .

imperialus

Mar 22 2009, 10:49 PM

1) Runner Archetypes have always been a bit of a moving target. Faces have gotten quite a bit more attention. Dedicated wheelmen aren't as critical anymore, but it's a useful secondary skillset for another runner to pick up. The hermetic shamanic distinction has largely been erased. Hackers aren't all powerful... though it does depend to some degree on how finicky you want to be with skinlinks and the like.

2) The big thing that catches you with bioware is the nuyen cost. Best comparison is probably Wired Reflexes vs. synaptic boosters. Wired Reflexes give you +1 IP and +1 reaction for a cost of 2 essence and 11,000:nuyen:. They're also compatable with other reflex enhancers. Synaptic Boosters give you +1 IP and +1 reaction for a cost of .5 essence and 80,000:nuyen:. Not compatable with anything else.

This means that a fresh out of the gate street sam is probably better off buying an alphaware version of Wired II (for 64,000) since it will still cost him less than a single Synaptic Booster, give him 3 IP's instead of two and it leaves room for him to grow. You can always yank the wires out later and replace them with something better to free up a bit of essence if you want.

Cyberlimbs and the like are actually more useful now IMO than they were in any previous edition. Particularly with some of the stuff you can do to them with Augmentation.

suppenhuhn

Mar 22 2009, 10:59 PM

If my memory serves me correctly bioware is still pretty much the same as it was when it was first introduced.
Boosted reflexes (if that was the name of that cyberware) have been removed though.

hobgoblin

Mar 22 2009, 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 22 2009, 11:48 PM)

Privacy?
yeah, right, htere's RFID-chips in your coffee nd scanners in your underwear that send out the information of how much coffee of which blend is right now in which part of your digestive system.
Privacy?
yeah, right, nobody seems to care, because that would make it impossible for runners to exist in that society, like, at all . .

less pink mohawks, more suits and fake id's.

runners are more like spies for hire then hooligans for hire now, but runners can still exist.

Ayeohx

Mar 23 2009, 02:45 AM

Welcome back!

I'm in a similar boat. I played a few dozen games in 3rd and took a break. I'm now back and studying 4th edition. Here's what I've learned so far.

Wireless is the biggest change. It changes how every mission is ran.
Hackers go on shadowruns now instead of staying home, jacked into the Matrix.
Credsticks are gone; it's all wireless now. There's still hard currency & bartering. Certified credsticks are around, but less popular.
You can still have a rigger and they look sweet.
Trolls are incredibly fast; no more little stubby legs.
Karma pool has been replaced by Edge.
Technomancers replace Otaku (you may have missed that one too).
Cyberware is somewhat old school, unless you need it that is. It's still very useful, IMO.

Glyph

Mar 23 2009, 03:04 AM

QUOTE (silva @ Mar 22 2009, 02:12 PM)

Hi there. As an old time 2nd ed Shadowrun fan, I stayed in limbo since 3rd edition came out. But the new anniversary edition got me excited.

So I bought the pdf and am reading it right now. But it seems a whole new world out there. Im trying to do some basic character to learn the new system but Im finding it dificult.

1) It seems there was some changes in the basic runner types. What were they?
(Riggers - i mean the old vehicle pilot ones - got less almost unimportant now?; Differences between Hermetic and Shamanic traditions got diminished? ; hackers got all-powerfull ?)

2) My assumptions about gear got screwed. What changed? (bioware seems really powerfull now, making cyberware seem thing of our grandpas).

3) Is there some general tips for the Point Buy creation process?

And what else would you guys tell for an old dog who is eager to jump back in the wagon?

THanks!

1) Rigger and hacker roles blend, but a dedicated rigger requires a slightly different skill/cyberware set than a dedicated hacker. All mages use the same basic rules now, but there are still differences between the traditions, each using a different Attribute in conjuction with Willpower to resist Drain, and each having a slightly different set of 5 spirit types that they can summon. The big thing to realize is that rather than hermetic vs. shamanic, now those are only two out of many different magical traditions (voodoo, druidism, etc.).

2) Bioware is powerful, but expensive, so most starting characters will tend to have a mix of both. Cyberware still rules as far as senseware and headware are concerned. Due to its low impact, Essence-wise, bioware is a lot more tempting for adepts to take. Indeed, a "pure" adept is at a distinct disadvantage for certain builds.

3) Generally - get Attributes as high as you can, but soft-max your key Attributes - hard-maxing them is too much of an additional cost to be worth it, most of the time. For skills, you can buy skill groups at a discounted rate. Specializations are cheaper with Karma, but it is still often wise to start out with some, because they add +2 dice. Perception is now a skill, as is dodge. Dodge helps you evade melee and ranged attacks. Melee skills can be used to block in melee, and gymnastics can be used instead of dodge for ranged combat - therefore, you might not need dodge, but only if you have a melee skill (for close combat) and gymnastics (for ranged combat).

The game works on dice pools, usually composed of Attribute, skill, and modifiers. Example - suppose you have a street samurai, and you want him to be really good with pistols. You get Agility at 5, then get muscle toner: 2 to improve it to 7. For skill, you take pistols: 6, then take a reflex recorder to improve it to 7, and have a specialization in semi-automatics to give you +2 dice for using them. You get a smartlink, which gives you +2 more dice. When you shoot your pistol, you will roll Agility: 7 + Pistols: 7 + modifiers: 4 (+2 from specialization and +2 from smartlink), or 18 dice.

Much like previous editions, it is optimal to be really good at something, and well-rounded in other skills and abilities. If you over-specialize, you can wind up costing yourself too many points to be good at much else. If you overgeneralize, you will wind up with someone who can do many things, but not be effective at any of them.

wind_in_the_stones

Mar 23 2009, 04:40 AM

I think the biggest change, that's not purely mechanics (like rolling attribute plus skill), is hacking. Hackers (they don't call them deckers, because they don't use decks) aren't tied down by cables anymore, so they can do their hacking while they're hiding behind you in a firefight, or while running down the corridor with you. They're not all-powerful, but they're seldom useless. A creative player can very often find ways to affect whatever situation you're in.

silva

Apr 1 2009, 09:37 PM

So, a decke.. oops I mean a Hacker doesnt even need a datajack anymore !?? (not even for a hot sim matrix connection ?)

- - -

Other doubt...

I see that now we can burst wide or narrow.

If I burst wide, does all my "hits" count toward damage value? If yes... I dont get it, because it has the potential to do so much damage as a narrow (and with more chance of hit at least one shot).

Am I missing something here?

Stahlseele

Apr 1 2009, 09:41 PM

nope, no hole in head needed. just touch that shiney little thing . .
as far as i understand, with wide burst you don't add to your damage, but you substract from the targets dodge pool, making it harder to get away from your base damage.
with narrow burst, it's as easy to get away from as it is with single shot weapons, but you get to do more damage.

silva

Apr 1 2009, 09:50 PM

So you can have a hot sim connection just with a finger touch? I dont get it...

- - -

Another thing...

Is there some math that gives me my chance/probability of success based on the number of dice I play on a givem moment?

For ex:

For a basic threshold of 1 success, whats the chance of a average guy (with say, dice pool = 6 ) succeeding, and whats the chance of above average guy (dice pool = 8 ) succeeding?

Stahlseele

Apr 1 2009, 09:52 PM

tenor seems to be that about 3 dice in your pool equal about one success or something like that . .
and yes,you can have hot sim with external gear now. either trode set, or skinlink.

Draco18s

Apr 1 2009, 10:34 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 1 2009, 05:52 PM)

tenor seems to be that about 3 dice in your pool equal about one success or something like that . .
and yes,you can have hot sim with external gear now. either trode set, or skinlink.

Closer to:

(NumSuccessesNeeded * 3) - 1

That will get you a rough 55% chance of success, or better (at 17 dice needed it's closer to 60%)

Matsci

Apr 1 2009, 10:54 PM

QUOTE (silva @ Apr 1 2009, 01:37 PM)

So, a decke.. oops I mean a Hacker doesnt even need a datajack anymore !?? (not even for a hot sim matrix connection ?)

- - -

Other doubt...

I see that now we can burst wide or narrow.

If I burst wide, does all my "hits" count toward damage value? If yes... I dont get it, because it has the potential to do so much damage as a narrow (and with more chance of hit at least one shot).

Am I missing something here?

Wide burst: Fire X bullets, subtracts x-1 from the Targets' dodge pool

Narrow Burst: Fire X bullets, add X-1 to the Final DV

Wide bursts are for shooting dodgy people who have a 18+ dice to dodge.

Narrow Burst are for people who have 30+ armor .

Larsine

Apr 1 2009, 11:15 PM

QUOTE (silva @ Apr 1 2009, 11:50 PM)

Another thing...

Is there some math that gives me my chance/probability of success based on the number of dice I play on a givem moment?

For ex:

For a basic threshold of 1 success, whats the chance of a average guy (with say, dice pool = 6 ) succeeding, and whats the chance of above average guy (dice pool = 8 ) succeeding?

CODE

Hits/Threshold
    1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9    10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19    20
Dice
1  33,33  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
2  55,56 11,11  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
3  70,37 25,93  3,70  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
4  80,25 40,74 11,11  1,23  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
5  86,83 53,91 20,99  4,53  0,41  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
6  91,22 64,88 31,96 10,01  1,78  0,14  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
7  94,15 73,66 42,94 17,33  4,53  0,69  0,05  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
8  96,10 80,49 53,18 25,86  8,79  1,97  0,26  0,02  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
9  97,40 85,69 62,28 34,97 14,48  4,24  0,83  0,10  0,01  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
10 98,27 89,60 70,09 44,07 21,31  7,66  1,97  0,34  0,04  0,00  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
11 98,84 92,49 76,59 52,74 28,90 12,21  3,86  0,88  0,14  0,01  0,00  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
12 99,23 94,60 81,89 60,69 36,85 17,77  6,64  1,88  0,39  0,05  0,00  0,00  -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
13 99,49 96,15 86,13 67,76 44,80 24,13 10,35  3,47  0,88  0,16  0,02  0,00  0,00  -     -     -     -     -     -     -
14 99,66 97,26 89,47 73,88 52,45 31,02 14,95  5,76  1,74  0,40  0,07  0,01  0,00  0,00  -     -     -     -     -     -
15 99,77 98,06 92,06 79,08 59,59 38,16 20,30  8,82  3,08  0,85  0,18  0,03  0,00  0,00  0,00  -     -     -     -     -
16 99,85 98,63 94,06 83,41 66,09 45,31 26,26 12,65  5,00  1,59  0,40  0,08  0,01  0,00  0,00  0,00  -     -     -     -
17 99,90 99,04 95,58 86,96 71,86 52,23 32,61 17,19  7,55  2,73  0,80  0,19  0,03  0,00  0,00  0,00  0,00  -     -     -
18 99,93 99,32 96,74 89,83 76,89 58,78 39,15 22,33 10,76  4,33  1,44  0,39  0,09  0,01  0,00  0,00  0,00  0,00  -     -
19 99,95 99,53 97,60 92,13 81,21 64,81 45,69 27,93 14,62  6,48  2,41  0,74  0,19  0,04  0,01  0,00  0,00  0,00  0,00  -
20 99,97 99,67 98,24 93,96 84,85 70,28 52,07 33,85 19,05  9,19  3,76  1,30  0,37  0,09  0,02  0,00  0,00  0,00  0,00  0,00

Lars

hobgoblin

Apr 2 2009, 08:14 AM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 1 2009, 10:52 PM)

tenor seems to be that about 3 dice in your pool equal about one success or something like that . .
and yes,you can have hot sim with external gear now. either trode set, or skinlink.

it seems people are continually confused by the number of options in how to connect to the matrix.

AR ways:
-glasses/googles/contacts/cybereyes with image link + gloves or touch link cyber
-trode
-datajack
-just the comlink on its own

VR
-trodes
-datajack

skinlink is just a connection option thats a place between radio and wire, that uses the human body as a medium.