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Ayeohx
According to pg 150 SR4A you can't stay locked on to targets with your rifle scope if the target moves. This doesn't sound right to me. Besides sniping tons of moving bad guys in video games my friend used his scoped rifle to kill running jack rabbits IRL (and yes, they are very fast).

I'm trying to play the game RAW but this rule seems to be incorrect. Am I reading this wrong?
Sir_Psycho
I wouldn't consider this a RAW reading, but you could interpret "locked on" as having taken a "Take Aim" action, so you could say that shooting moving targets with a sniper rifle, you can't use Take Aim actions. That's just like, my opinion, man.
Caadium
QUOTE (Ayeohx @ Mar 22 2009, 08:33 PM) *
According to pg 150 SR4A you can't stay locked on to targets with your rifle scope if the target moves. This doesn't sound right to me. Besides sniping tons of moving bad guys in video games my friend used his scoped rifle to kill running jack rabbits IRL (and yes, they are very fast).

I'm trying to play the game RAW but this rule seems to be incorrect. Am I reading this wrong?


Is this in relation to taking an Aim action, or in general? I don't have SR4A yet, so I can't check.

If this is in relation to taking an Aim action I'd agree with that rule. You can take the shot, and use the scope to negate the range modifiers, but you can't really get that bead on a target that taking careful aim allows since your moving to keep up with it.
Ayeohx
The rule, if anyone is curious. Sorry, probably should have included it in the first place.

"Attacker Using Image Magnification
Image magnification equipment allows the character to “zoom in? on
the target, reducing the Range category to Short, and thus eliminating
any range modifiers. The character must take a Take Aim action
(p. 148) to “lock onto? the target (the Take Aim does not apply a +1
aiming bonus for this purpose, unless additional Take Aim actions are
made). As long as the target and attacker do not move, the attacker
remains locked on and may continue to get the image magnification
bonus on subsequent actions without further Take Aim actions.
Image
magnification can be used in conjunction with a laser sight or smartlinked
weapon (but not both)."
Caadium
Then that rule actually makes sense. Bear in mind that a Take Aim action is a simple action. By requiring you to use a new take aim action to keep the target in your scope you basically mean that in 1 IP you can take 1 zoomed in snipe shot, not 2. Ask your friend if he had to make an effort to keep his aim on the rabbits. You can get off 2 sniped shots on a stationary target in the same time you can accurately get 1 on a mobile one. I think thats a valid rule. Thats why sniper keep 'taking aim' actions while targets move, then as soon as the target stops they fire.
Ed_209a
Yet another conflict between "real reality" and "shadow-reality"

If it were my game, then in certain situations, I certainly would let you aim at a moving target. Scoped rifle, 200m, car on the freeway? Sure. Guy with a handgun, guy running away from him? Sure.

Actually. the more I think about it, the only thing I would have cancel out aiming is breaking line-of-sight. All other movement should just add more penalties to the roll.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Mar 22 2009, 09:47 PM) *
I wouldn't consider this a RAW reading, but you could interpret "locked on" as having taken a "Take Aim" action, so you could say that shooting moving targets with a sniper rifle, you can't use Take Aim actions. That's just like, my opinion, man.


I agree with this. When trying to use a scope to shoot a moving target, you really can't "lock on" to the target per say. You are always adjusting to keep the target in your site and there is a much higher chance that you won't hit the target. That being said you have a better chance of hitting the target with a scope then iron sight if your more then 300 meters away from it.
Method
I think the point of the rule is that if you take aim and shoot during the same action phase (each being a simple action) you get the bonus even if your target is moving. If you aim but do not shoot in that action phase and the target moves you have to aim again. In other words if you are shooting a moving target the aim and shooting actions must be in the same action phase. This represents "leading" a moving target. If you are shooting at a stationary target you can aim in one action phase and shoot in another.
Caadium
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 22 2009, 09:09 PM) *
I think the point of the rule is that if you take aim and shoot during the same action phase (each being a simple action) you get the bonus even if your target is moving. If you aim but do not shoot in that action phase and the target moves you have to aim again. In other words if you are shooting a moving target the aim and shooting actions must be in the same action phase. This represents "leading" a moving target. If you are shooting at a stationary target you can aim in one action phase and shoot in another.


That is the basic idea I was getting at. However, the rule says (and did in SR4) that you don't get the +1 bonus for the first aim action which is used to use the scope to get the target in and negate the range modifiers. If you want bonuses, you need the target to stop and stay stationary for a moment.
Method
Which seems pretty reasonable to me. I think it brings sniping at a moving target in line with the difficulty it should entail. And to get technical, leading a target is not the same as aiming in the "put your cross hairs on his forehead" sense. You have to guess where his forehead will be an instant later and put your cross hairs there. If you guess wrong all your aiming goes to waste.
Ayeohx
Ahha! That totally makes sense. Thanks again gang.
Phylos Fett
QUOTE (Ayeohx @ Mar 23 2009, 02:00 PM) *
As long as the target and attacker do not move, the attacker
remains locked on and may continue to get the image magnification
bonus on subsequent actions without further Take Aim actions.


The key here may be the "and" - if either the target or the attacker move, all is good, it is only a problem if the target and attacker move.
Muspellsheimr
Actually, the wording & use of "and" requires both the attacker and the target to remain stationary.

If "or" was used, as long as either remains stationary, the 'lock' remains. "As long as the target or the attacker does not move" is the same as saying "As long as the target does not move, or the attacker does not move."
Method
Plus you could argue that the rules for taking aim preclude the shooter moving...

SR4A page 148: "the benefits are lost if the character takes any other kind of action..."

I know movement isn't technically an action (at least walking isn't), but the intent seems to be that aiming takes all your concentration.
Phylos Fett
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Mar 23 2009, 04:45 PM) *
Actually, the wording & use of "and" requires both the attacker and the target to remain stationary.

If "or" was used, as long as either remains stationary, the 'lock' remains. "As long as the target or the attacker does not move" is the same as saying "As long as the target does not move, or the attacker does not move."


Ah, so there is an implied "both" there:

As long as [both] the target and attacker do not move, the attacker
remains locked on and may continue to get the image magnification
bonus on subsequent actions without further Take Aim actions.
TBRMInsanity
Moving while looking through your scope is a good way to twist your ankle and give yourself a black eye. I would impose a penalty any time an NPC was trying to move while looking through a scope just for that reason.
Method
Very true, but it seems to me that the penalty is built into the mechanic- i.e. the +1 aiming action is neutralized by a -1 for moving.
Falconer
Also keep in mind they changed the range chart.

That first take aim can eliminate a -6 dice penalty from extreme range. -6 to -0 for a single simple action is huge, big enough to forgive the inability to use extra take aims for extra dice on a non-moving target.

Also, if the sniper is IP boosted and the target isn't... he could easily get a few simple actions in a row to zoom aim aim fire. Especially if the target is unaware, and the sniper has some time and patience to not take the first shot oppurtunity. (granted some missions might only allow the time from the door opening til the guy is rushed into the building).

Overall I like the new rules a lot more than the old... the old chart was way too forgiving. And if it was me I'd do scopes as reduce by one range category (-6 extreme to -3 which is still +3 dice for a single simple action).
TBRMInsanity
Sounds about right.
Mx
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 24 2009, 02:18 AM) *
Also, if the sniper is IP boosted and the target isn't... he could easily get a few simple actions in a row to zoom aim aim fire. Especially if the target is unaware, and the sniper has some time and patience to not take the first shot oppurtunity. (granted some missions might only allow the time from the door opening til the guy is rushed into the building).

Extra IP:s over the target don't help in this situation, as you don't only move in you own IP but on all IP:s.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
All In All, I think that Sniping is pretty well modeled in SR4/SR4A...

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