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pbangarth
I never really thought of this before, but it seems from the wording (SR4A p. 192):
QUOTE
Astral Signatures
Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected
by them, which is detectable using assensing. An astral signature
is the magical “fingerprint� of the Awakened creature who created it. A
signature lasts for a number of hours equal to a magical effect’s Force
after the effect ends. Foci and other magical items (like magical lodges)
always contain the astral signature of their owner (or owners).


... that at least some Adept Powers, say those that involve the channeling of mana at the moment, would leave a signature. Maybe those that are permanent, such as Combat Sense, would not, but it seems logical, for example, that an adept who uses Attribute Boost would leave a signature.

This would be an extra reason for the adept to have Astral Perception, so that he may erase his own astral signature.
Kingboy
QUOTE
A signature lasts for a number of hours equal to a magical effect’s Force after the effect ends.


This would be the key phrase here. The vast majority of Adept powers have nothing in the way of a Force rating. They have a Power rating, a measure of the Adepts given level of magcal ju-ju in a particular somatic effect, but that isn't the same as a Force rating. If the description of the Adept power mentions that use of the power requires the choice of a level of Force (I can't remember any that do, but then again it's 4 am and I'm too lazy to check), then yes that power would leave an astral signature. Otherwise, no, Adept powers by RAW do not leave an astral signature upon use.

If you want to play an Awakened character that inherently can't clean up after themselves, try the red headed step children of the Awakened world known as Mystic Adepts. Their total exclusion (in their natural state) from the Astral coupled with the ridiculous Power cost of the Adept Astral Perception power (is this a good time to intersperse interrogatives regarding if, and if not, why not, this is one of the reduced cost powers in SR4A?) and the splitting up of their Magic between spellcasting and Adept powers ensure that few starting Mystic Adepts can do anything about the astral trails they leave behind after every spell (aside from teaming with a full-on mage who can wipe their metaphysical behind for them). It also makes the Astral Chameleon quality one of a young MA's best friends.
darthmord
I agree with Kingboy. With SR4 having 4 be the new 6, a lot of those old costs need to be adjusted downward to compensate. I have no problem with some costs being fractional. If it ends up they only used 5.8 Magic, then so be it. They have 0.2 left over they can combine with the next point to get a power that costs 1.2 points.

Just might have to write that houserule up and toss it up here for critiques.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Kingboy @ Mar 23 2009, 04:21 AM) *
This would be the key phrase here. The vast majority of Adept powers have nothing in the way of a Force rating.


Including Augment [Attribute].
TheOOB
I've house ruled that any roll that includes the magic attribute leaves a signature, though ones without a force score only last a hour.
Neraph
QUOTE (Kingboy @ Mar 23 2009, 02:21 AM) *
If you want to play an Awakened character that inherently can't clean up after themselves, try the red headed step children of the Awakened world known as Mystic Adepts. Their total exclusion (in their natural state) from the Astral coupled with the ridiculous Power cost of the Adept Astral Perception power (is this a good time to intersperse interrogatives regarding if, and if not, why not, this is one of the reduced cost powers in SR4A?) and the splitting up of their Magic between spellcasting and Adept powers ensure that few starting Mystic Adepts can do anything about the astral trails they leave behind after every spell (aside from teaming with a full-on mage who can wipe their metaphysical behind for them). It also makes the Astral Chameleon quality one of a young MA's best friends.

Ghoul Mystic Adept.

Shade (Arsenal, page 78). I can't find it at the moment, but I could have sworn there was a drug somewhere that caused even vanilla mundanes to Astrally Perceive.

EDIT: Summon a spirit to do it for you.
TheOOB
Heck, summon a watcher spirit to do it for you.
Kingboy
QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 23 2009, 03:24 PM) *
Ghoul Mystic Adept.


That's a pretty munchkiny route to take (unless the character concept fits it), but I guess it does technically do the job. If I'm that worried about it though I'd probably just spend the power point on Astral Perception and be able to have a normal (well, for runners anyway) social life.


QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 23 2009, 03:24 PM) *
Shade (Arsenal, page 78). I can't find it at the moment, but I could have sworn there was a drug somewhere that caused even vanilla mundanes to Astrally Perceive.


I suppose that works, but again for me it comes down to character concept. Not everone I play is going to be willing to pop pharmaceuticals of varying legality to cover up "defects" in their abilities, especially if it can be accomplished in another manner. I tend to be rather leary of the whole dependency issue without good character reason to ignore it...


QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 23 2009, 03:24 PM) *
EDIT: Summon a spirit to do it for you.


Not a bad idea, something to keep in mind (although for me personally it means my Mystic Adept Face is going to have to get off his butt and actually learn to summon). I've actually been thinking about that just in general anyways as it pertains to Possesion traditions. People can correct me if I'm wrong, but if a Possesion mage asks the possesing spirit to Astrally Perceive the area, he gets to see what's going on in the astral as well right?


I guess I will formally ask the question though now: Is the reason that the Adept Astral Perception power costs a whole Power Point is merely the fact that "that's how it's always been"? It's been some time since I've read any of the SR3 books, so I don't remember what powers used to cost. Or are there game balance issues that I am missing that justify the high cost of that particular power? Is a spirit hunting Adept (or some other concept) that overpowering that it needs to be that high?

.5 power point seems more reasonable to me, but even a reduction to .75 would allow Adepts/Mystic Adepts to pick up one of the low cost utility powers with that Power point and not feel quite so much like they blew a whole Magic point on something that on the surface seems to lack some of the oomph of other high cost powers (not to mention being four times more expensive than the basic sensory powers).
TheOOB
Astral Perception is a very powerful ability with many uses. I think 1 PP is a bargain for adepts personally. There is so much information you can gain from it.

Mystic Adepts kinda get the short end of the stick though, I'm thinking of magic mystic adepts cost 15, and giving them astral perception for free.
pbangarth
I wonder why I didn't pick up on this before. Under Metamagics, adepts can use the Flexible Signature Metamagic. (SR4A, p. 198 - same description, with some gender changes and page references, as in SR4 p. 189):

QUOTE
Flexible Signature: The initiate can choose to alter her astral signature
(p. 192) at will, disguising it so that it cannot be used to
identify her, forging the astral signature of another magician, or
simply reducing the amount of time her signatures last.
When someone attempts to assense a faked signature, add
the faking magician’s initiate grade to the Assensing Test threshold.
So if a grade 2 initiate leaves a forged astral signature, another
magician would need to score only 3 hits as usual to see the fake
signature, but would need 5 hits to realize the signature was fake
and spot the true signature hiding underneath. The initiate must
have assensed someone else’s astral signature in order to forge it.
Initiates with this metamagic can also reduce the longevity
of astral signatures they leave behind by the initiate’s grade
in hours. So a grade 3 initiate can choose to leave no signature
on Force 3 or lesser effects, and the signature of a Force 5 effect
would last only 2 hours.


So, if adepts can alter the astral signatures they leave behind... they must leave behind astral signatures. The issue of not having a Force for their powers must be generalized from the one example where this issue is mentioned in the RAW, the Magic Sense adept power (SM, p. 178). There, the adept's Magic rating is used instead of Force.

This does, as has been mentioned, put those adepts who don't have the Astral Perception adept power at a disadvantage. The importance of this disadvantage is debatable.
pbangarth
OK, so in SR4A, p. 90, under the Astral Chameleon Quality:
QUOTE
Astral Chameleon
Cost: 5 BP
With the Astral Chameleon quality, the character’s astral signature
blends into the background of astral space more quickly. All signatures
left by the character last only half as long, and others assensing
the signature receive a -2 dice pool modifier. Only characters with the
Adept, Magician, or Mystic Adept qualities may take this quality.


So, here too, adepts are said to leave an astral signature.
Larme
I don't see how Adepts could leave an astral signature. Astral signatures last a number of hours equal to Force. No adept powers have a Force. So they only last 0 hours? Or maybe they last [UNDEFINED] hours? Either way, to make adepts leave astral signatures, you need to insert a house rule that determines what powers leave a signature, and how long they last. Anyone who thinks they leave signatures per RAW is reading too much into the fact that Adepts can take astral chameleon, and learn flexible signature. At best, I think that was just another copy/paste error. If Catalyst wanted every adept power to leave a signature, they wouldn't have done it in such a secretive way, by inserting the word "Adept" into the description for one quality, and one metamagic. They would have come out and given us a rule explaining which powers cause signatures and how long they last. Since they haven't, I don't think we should read too much into those two tiny inclusions of the word Adept.
Zurai
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 29 2009, 12:00 AM) *
I don't see how Adepts could leave an astral signature. Astral signatures last a number of hours equal to Force. No adept powers have a Force. So they only last 0 hours? Or maybe they last [UNDEFINED] hours? Either way, to make adepts leave astral signatures, you need to insert a house rule that determines what powers leave a signature, and how long they last. Anyone who thinks they leave signatures per RAW is reading too much into the fact that Adepts can take astral chameleon, and learn flexible signature. At best, I think that was just another copy/paste error.


ALL Awakened beings have Astral Signatures and leave them whenever they use a magical ability. That is explicitly stated in the rules, with no room for wiggling out of it. The rules then go on to state that Astral Signatures last for Force hours. Lasting for 0 hours doesn't mean that Adepts don't leave Astral Signatures -- it just that they don't even last a whole hour. It's certainly a valid interpretation of the rules that Adept signatures evaporate nigh-instantly. It's also a valid interpretation that they last several minutes, maybe even up to a half hour.

QUOTE
If Catalyst wanted every adept power to leave a signature, they wouldn't have done it in such a secretive way, by inserting the word "Adept" into the description for one quality, and one metamagic. They would have come out and given us a rule explaining which powers cause signatures and how long they last. Since they haven't, I don't think we should read too much into those two tiny inclusions of the word Adept.


It's not secretive or hidden. The rules EXPLICITLY say that ALL Awakened beings leave signatures. That's about as bold and up-front as you can get. They also state which powers leave signatures - all of them. The only ambiguity is exactly how long signatures last for powers that aren't measured in Force.
Larme
QUOTE (Zurai @ Mar 29 2009, 01:33 AM) *
ALL Awakened beings have Astral Signatures and leave them whenever they use a magical ability. That is explicitly stated in the rules, with no room for wiggling out of it. The rules then go on to state that Astral Signatures last for Force hours. Lasting for 0 hours doesn't mean that Adepts don't leave Astral Signatures -- it just that they don't even last a whole hour. It's certainly a valid interpretation of the rules that Adept signatures evaporate nigh-instantly. It's also a valid interpretation that they last several minutes, maybe even up to a half hour.


Wait, so now you're deciding that 0 hours = some unknown amount of minutes? Couldn't 0 hours just as easily be 0 hours, 0 minutes, 0 seconds? The point is, it's a big gap in the rules. There is no way to decide how long they last without creating your own house rule. If you don't use a house rule, then the powers don't leave a signature that lasts for any time at all, because they have no force. Plus, we may be making an unjustified leap, here. We're saying that Signature time = (force)hours. But for something to last 0 hours, we'd need a 0 from somewhere, wouldn't we? Adept powers don't have a force of 0, they have a force of [NULL], they have a force of [N/A] -- they have no Force attribute whatsoever. Those are not valid numbers for us to plug into the equation, if we try to figure out how long they last we are not left with 0, we are left with no number at all.

QUOTE
It's not secretive or hidden. The rules EXPLICITLY say that ALL Awakened beings leave signatures. That's about as bold and up-front as you can get. They also state which powers leave signatures - all of them. The only ambiguity is exactly how long signatures last for powers that aren't measured in Force.


The rules explicitly say that as a matter of flavor text. The very next sentence says that those signatures last for Force hours. For something without a Force, that means they do not even exist, unless you create a house rule that makes them exist. You have to concede, no matter how you slice this, there is a gap that must be filled with a house rule. There is no rule in the book that says how long an Adept's signature would last, even if we agree that they leave signatures. By definition, if you have to make a house rule, it's not RAW. It is perhaps a logical extension of RAW, but making up rules is the antithesis of RAW. What we have is a flaw in the RAW, a gap that the authors left for us. We cannot follow the rules, because they are incomplete. Therefore, they may as well not exist. You can fix them yourself if you want. My concern would be that it's not very cool to make adepts buy astral perception just to erase signatures. They're hampered enough as it is compared to streetsams, especially with the fact that it now costs new rating x 5 to raise magic, raising magic being their primary way of becoming more powerful
Zurai
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 29 2009, 02:10 AM) *
Wait, so now you're deciding that 0 hours = some unknown amount of minutes? Couldn't 0 hours just as easily be 0 hours, 0 minutes, 0 seconds?


Did you not read the part where I said "It's certainly a valid interpretation of the rules to say that Adept signatures vanish nigh-instantly" or are you intentionally ignoring it?

QUOTE
The rules explicitly say that as a matter of flavor text.


Incorrect. The rulebooks -- all of them, though only the BBB is relevant here -- are clearly divided between "flavor" sections and "rules" sections. The passage I'm referring to is in the rules section. It is not flavor text, it is clearly defined rules as written.
Larme
QUOTE (Zurai @ Mar 29 2009, 01:16 AM) *
Did you not read the part where I said "It's certainly a valid interpretation of the rules to say that Adept signatures vanish nigh-instantly" or are you intentionally ignoring it?


Sorry, guess I missed that.

QUOTE
Incorrect. The rulebooks -- all of them, though only the BBB is relevant here -- are clearly divided between "flavor" sections and "rules" sections. The passage I'm referring to is in the rules section. It is not flavor text, it is clearly defined rules as written.


What I was trying to say that if you have a general statement followed by a specific statement that disagrees, the specific statement wins. If it said "humans get pregnant and have babies," and then it said "when a woman gets pregnant, a baby is generally born after 9 months," you'd be making a mistake to read that first statement as definitively saying that men can get pregnant. Specific trumps general. What the rules are saying is that, in general, magical abilities leave signatures, but specifically these signatures last a number of hours equal to their Force. The second statement narrows and clarifies the first. Reading them independently is a mistake, because it leaves you with a large gap in the rules. I do not presume that the developers intended to leave this gap, it is more likely that they simply phrased the sentence more broadly than they should have, and then included the word Adept in two places where they shouldn't have. It's possible that they meant to provide rules for Adepts leaving signatures, but fixing that requires a house rule. If I'm playing by RAW, I'm going to use the interpretation of the rules that doesn't require a house rule. I also tend to presume that the rules follow Shadowrun traditions -- throughout more than a decade of SR3, Adepts never left signatures, so I'm not going to house-rule that they do now in the absence of a very specific rule to the contrary. We have no such specific rule, we just have the broad general statement which is trumped by the specific rule about Force duration.
Zurai
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 29 2009, 02:35 AM) *
What I was trying to say that if you have a general statement followed by a specific statement that disagrees, the specific statement wins.


I completely agree.

Fortunately for my case, the two do NOT disagree, because they're talking about different things.

General rule: All Awakened beings have signatures, and all magical powers leave the signatures of their casters/users.
Specific rule: The signatures left by magical powers last for Force hours.

The two don't contradict. There's ambiguity about how long the signatures for powers that aren't measured in Force last, yes. However, even if they last for 0 seconds as we both agree is a reasonable adjudication, they still had a signature - it's just too brief to be used for tracking purposes. Thus, the specific rule does not need to override the general rule to function, and therefore the general rule still applies.
pbangarth
There is at least one specific example in which an adept power, Magic Sense, is described as substituting Magic rating for Force. I wholeheartedly agree that things could have been worded better, but the categorical statement that all Awakened leave astral signatures is hard to ignore.

Substituting Magic for Force is the best we have to rationalize the deficiencies in the various texts. Either we do this extrapolation from the specific to the general, or we have to disregard at least two clear statements telling us that adepts leave astral signatures in the exercise of their powers. Larme, you yourself have argued elsewhere that in the situation in which one is forced to choose among interpretations, choosing a blanket statement that goes against specific examples and clear text doesn't make sense.

Doesn't that apply here, too?
Draco18s
Having all adept powers leave signature for Magic hours really does some odd stuff. For example, it would look like a mage cast 3 to 8 Force 6 spells on himself (at first glance, before the assensor has made out that it was an adept). Not to mention that it's entirely feasible for an adept to wander around with most (if not all) of his powers active all the time (who wouldn't keep Rapid Healing on all the time?)

Something like that is going to start leaving a 6 hour long trail behind them in the astral (and it probably loops over itself at some point too).
Angier
That's why I would substitute the Magic Hours with "Level of Power" Hours. And most of the Adept Powers are still centered on himself so would only leave an Astral Signature on himself.
Larme
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 29 2009, 03:03 AM) *
Larme, you yourself have argued elsewhere that in the situation in which one is forced to choose among interpretations, choosing a blanket statement that goes against specific examples and clear text doesn't make sense.

Doesn't that apply here, too?


No, because creating a house rule of "Force = Magic" is not an interpretation. It's a change to the game rules. We're faced with an unusual situation, where the game rules have a gap. This isn't a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of whether you fill the gap or not. I usually prefer to play by RAW instead of making house rules, since house rules are a burden to keep track of, and they usually are such minor tweaks that it's not even worthwhile. You can fill the gap, you're not a bad person if you do, but you're not interpreting the rules as written, you're writing a new rule to make the rules as written make more sense.
pbangarth
I'm suggesting that the 'interpretation' is that the one example given in RAW be extrapolated to apply to all cases. And, yes, that interpretation is filling a gap in the rules, but it is based on an example in them.

If I may analogize, the picture has a white hole in it, except for one spot painted red. I just extrapolate red for the rest of the hole. I also argue that filling in the hole with red makes it fit the rest of the picture.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 23 2009, 12:24 PM) *
Ghoul Mystic Adept.

Shade (Arsenal, page 78). I can't find it at the moment, but I could have sworn there was a drug somewhere that caused even vanilla mundanes to Astrally Perceive.

EDIT: Summon a spirit to do it for you.



Shade forces even a Vanilla Mundane to astrally PROJECT.... not perceive Page 78 of Arsenal
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Kingboy @ Mar 23 2009, 01:39 PM) *
That's a pretty munchkiny route to take (unless the character concept fits it), but I guess it does technically do the job. If I'm that worried about it though I'd probably just spend the power point on Astral Perception and be able to have a normal (well, for runners anyway) social life.




I suppose that works, but again for me it comes down to character concept. Not everone I play is going to be willing to pop pharmaceuticals of varying legality to cover up "defects" in their abilities, especially if it can be accomplished in another manner. I tend to be rather leary of the whole dependency issue without good character reason to ignore it...




Not a bad idea, something to keep in mind (although for me personally it means my Mystic Adept Face is going to have to get off his butt and actually learn to summon). I've actually been thinking about that just in general anyways as it pertains to Possesion traditions. People can correct me if I'm wrong, but if a Possesion mage asks the possesing spirit to Astrally Perceive the area, he gets to see what's going on in the astral as well right?


I guess I will formally ask the question though now: Is the reason that the Adept Astral Perception power costs a whole Power Point is merely the fact that "that's how it's always been"? It's been some time since I've read any of the SR3 books, so I don't remember what powers used to cost. Or are there game balance issues that I am missing that justify the high cost of that particular power? Is a spirit hunting Adept (or some other concept) that overpowering that it needs to be that high?

.5 power point seems more reasonable to me, but even a reduction to .75 would allow Adepts/Mystic Adepts to pick up one of the low cost utility powers with that Power point and not feel quite so much like they blew a whole Magic point on something that on the surface seems to lack some of the oomph of other high cost powers (not to mention being four times more expensive than the basic sensory powers).



No... Astral Perception for Adepts use to Cost 2 Points, not 1 in SR3.
darthmord
Back in SR1 & SR@, Astral Perception was 1 point iirc.
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