So I'm wondering if any of you have come up with stats for vampires that makes them a little more lethal?

Sort of Anne Rice style vampires, if you will. I want to make them sort of a larger enemy for my runners.


And God help me if somebody talks about that bulldrek Twilight. I'll rig your car into a wall.

Twilight had vampires?... I Thought that they were Fairies...

Don't get me started on twilight. Honestly I liked a couple of the characters but the main ones (Bella and Edward) annoyed me so much I skipped huge chunks of it.

If our vampires over drained someone so they had over 6 essense that extra was added to all their stats but they had a limit of +6. Now I know what your thinking, Jesus thats a huge bonus for a pc. Thats why there were different types of vamps in our games. The PC ones were heavily modified so they were much weaker but could walk in daylight and they didnt drain pure essence just your energy. Same effect, addiction and all that, but you couldnt die from it. There were 4 different kinds in all I believe. The PC ones, those over powered ones who made our lives miserable but exciting, some more animalistic ones, and some vamps who leached off of emotions. What type was a personal preference.

To be honest we hated those stronger ones. Our GM would make a public roll so we could all see, so no claims of him cheating, how strong the next vamps would be but he would never say when we would fight them. Once we ran into a group of them. 5 of us and 5 of them. Everyone of them had +6. We actually won though because of some well placed edge, a few lucky rolls, and the fact that I had enough spirits on call to even the odds.

With regeneration, a natural weapon, essence drain (and the ability to boost stats), +2 Rea, and +2 Agi, they really don't need much else. Don't forget that most of them are Awakened (in the mage/mystic adept/adept sense), and they really have nothing better to do than plan things out, so they're lethal not because they're strong, they're lethal because they're prepared for (nearly) all eventualities.

@ Lost Proxy: You're GM ran them wrong (by the books, that is).

Shadowrun 4 House Errata

Essence Drain is less powerful, but far more versatile. This will only significantly affect PC vampires, however.
Regeneration is more powerful, making them somewhat more difficult to kill.

Overall, they really do not need much of an increase; they are deadly as-is.



And that is a game I would never play in. If there are different rules for the same thing, depending on if it is a PC or NPC, the game has already failed. This is the single largest reason (even moreso than the absurd balance issues) that Free Spirits & Synthetic Intelligences as published in Runners Companion are not allowed in my games.

Oh, they are awesome. I have one, myself. He's sort of my guilty-pleasure character. He's pretty insane.

He's an adept-I pumped a lot of his physical attributes naturally, and his Strength is high(he's also Surged with a few things). Now, on a normal day, he kicks ass, but honestly, it's nothing super out of the ordinary. My sam(whom I play more often, and is basically my main character), on any given day, pretty much can own the combat field if the vamp is in his normal form. (I finally whittled my character roster down to about 5. ) The Vamp has a geas on all of his adept powers that requires him to feed daily off of a willing subject. This is beyond his normal requirement(where he can just nab some schmuck and suck him dry.) He does have a contact he uses for this(and she doesn't mind, because he has the negative quality of unable to infect. It can cause problems if he's on a run out of the city for more than a day, though.) In fact, if THAT happens, he's basically just a very sturdy, very strong fighter who can regenerate, and needs to stay in the dark and has a dietary requirement. In fact, even his adept powers aren't too insane; improved strength, some critical strike, smashing blow, killing hands(vampires are supposed to be strong, damnit, as useless as the stat can be.) His Regeneration and defensive capabilities are probably his best thing, though he can lay down a nasty unarmed blow with his martial arts damage, good physical stats and skills, and hardliners. But again, nothing that my sam can't do, and probably better.

Now, if he happens to suck up his daily 10 essence and burns them on his magic? Ouch. I have a 'system' that I use when he gains more Magic; a list of powers that he can utilize as long as the magic is high enough, beyond his normal Magic score.(By RAW you can apparently pick and choose fresh powers as you gain Magic again, but I kinda like the ''chosen'' method. It feels better for the character.) Then, he starts sprouting insane levels of Critical and Penetrating Strike, Combat Sense, Improved Unarmed, and other nonsense that turns him into a whirlwind of pain that can reduce anyone within ten feet of him into a red, soggy mess with his bare hands. At that point he could probably tear my samurai in half.

So they ARE very powerful, even in direct situations, but he does have to plan for it to be that way fully(get his Geas taken care of and fill up on essence beforehand.) He's kinda more or less best used as the team's ''trump card'', if a member is willing enough to let him feed a bit and then toss him into whatever room has things that need to be broken.

I think you misunderstand what I said, or I said it incorrectly, its not that he ran them wrong or that there were different rules but that there were literally different kinds, as in different breeds. It was like the difference between a normal vamp, an elder, and one who had gone insane with bloodlust. They were each their own type, like mutations in the virus since most viruses do mutate. I don't remember the specific reason why they worked as such but thats because we arent that far in. Anyways they arent that hard to deal with, even with the random rolls he tends to even it out.

@Muspellsheimr: I really like the change to Essence Drain. I'll probably steal that one for our group.
The change to Regeneration makes PC vampires really difficult to kill without extreme prejudice and heavy ordnance, though, which could be a problem. Have you had one of those in one of your groups and if so how did it work out?

No, there is no PC character with Regeneration yet. The change is not as major as you may think, though. Yes, they can heal magical damage; it did not make sense why they could not before. Any method of killing them now is what was most likely to be used previously anyways - shoot it until it stops moving. Although it certainly helps, the power is not enough to keep a character alive.

Basically, the goal of both these changes was to streamline the powers without breaking them, & I always thought Regeneration had stupid limitations on it anyways.

Ah, I see.
Depending on how the planning of our group goes along, I may be able to shed some light on the effect of that change to Regeneration combined with a nosferatu houngan (ie: possession mage) in a few weeks time.
If that doesn't pose any problems, nothing will.

If they are relying solely on Weapon Foci to bypass the Immunity, it will depend heavily on what other defensive measures the Nosferatu is using, & may make a significant difference, effectively removing attrition of hitting for 1 or 2 points at a time (which they would have a similar problem with anyways, due to the Heal spell - although admittedly not as bad).

If they are using spells, it will increase the number of hits needed by at most 1 or 2.


Basically, yes. With my change, Regeneration is obviously more powerful, but still a fairly minor boost, & it just fits better in my opinion.



Edit: I should also probably note that with my house rules, Immunity provides Hardened Armor equal to the spirit's Force or creatures Magic, & Hardened Armor is now automatic soaking. So far, it seems to make it far less powerful, but that is probably due to the character usually taking out the spirits using Super Warhawks (or a Barrett) with AV rounds & 4-point called shots...

The problem with SR vampires (or rather : what makes them more compelling, in my opinion) is that they are not centuries-old creatures of legend.
They are basically sick people with a couple of powers and some stat boosts and at best, they are about a hundred years old, probably 150+ if they got infected immediately after the awakening and where old farts to begin with (one of my favourite NPCs is a toxic nosferatu mage who was infected in 2012 in a private retirement home and had been a North Korean nuclear scientist before).

If you want tougher vampires, go about it the same way you would build a tough awakened human.
In the case of vamps, Charisma makes for a nice drain stat.

High degrees of initiation may help a lot, as Regeneration in SR4 (which is, BTW, a lot weaker than in previous editions) is dependant mostly on the Magic attribute for vampires, who will not have exceedingly high Body scores.
Even then, don't rely too heavily on regenaration as a combat tactic, it will fail if your runners are halfway capable.
Let's assume you have a vamp with Body 5 and Magic 13.
Pretty impressive, right?
But even that tough bastard would, on average, regenerate "only" about 6 boxes of damage per turn, which is potentially a lot less than the complete recovery in SR1-3.
If multiple PCs pump enough lead into him (not to mention spells), he'll last a bit longer than a non-regenerating character with equal Body.
Unless his powers make him careles and he just stands there in the open or charges at the runners- in that case, he won't stand any chance whatsoever.
If he manges to hit the PCs and then run for cover, however, regenerating will be a huge benefit for him, as he'll probably be healed completely when he comes up next, assuming he takes only minor wounds from mundane sources.

Make sure he has good counterspelling or spirits with Magical Guard- that way, you can reduce the risks of combat spells, which are one of the best vamp killers in SR4.

The Alleviate allergy spell may be particularly handy.
Not only because you get an instant daywalker, but also because critters suffering from their allergies cannot regenerate.

Use spirits to make sure that the runners aren't able to heal their wounds in the meantime.
Also, use the spirits to seperate and pick at them (by powers such as Fear and Confusion)- thereby, you'll avoid that the PCs can concentrate fire to put him down before he regenerates and just continue to put bullets into the guy until excessive damage overflows his ability to regenerate.

Alleviate Allergy does not remove the allergy, it only alleviates the negative effects listed under the severities. This means that the allergen's presence - such as a wooden stake in a vampire - still disrupts regeneration even if Alleviate Allergy is used. However, the vampire would not suffer the added damage from a Severe Allergy.

Alleviate Allergy shouldn't be disregarded. It basically does give you a daywalker, and +4 DV to a weapon is a lot, and getting less is always a good thing.

Also remember, the Allergy really only comes into play with Physical damage, not stun(that was, in fact, pointed out to me by several people here, and I recall one was a dev.) If someone hits a vampire with a stake, but due to Impact armor(say they have 10 points, not hard to get with FFBA, a jacket, and a bit of PPP), and they don't get the Power above 10, it will do some damage, but it's stun, and thus will not do +4 DV. This only comes into play if the wood actually hits them for Physical damage. (Or Silver for a shapeshifter, etc.)

I don't, however, recall how the hell regenerators handle Stun damage. I want to say it's the same as anyone else, but that's pretty funny if that's the case...they can, in essence and a lucky roll, regenerate 8 boxes in 1 turn of physical damage(which is like, an arm dangling by a thread and a bullet in the gut), but that bruise on their ribs is just too difficult.

I let them regenerate Stun just the same. It makes for a nice effect when you knock the vampire in the head with a beam and then it wakes up again six seconds later. I wouldn't apply it to magical drain though (for either Physical or Stun) as that is too powerful. I've scrapped the ability to take Mist Form as it's too mystical for the 'infected humans' feel that I want from them.

All that said, I've yet to actually use vampires at all in a game. I do have a module on the drawing board that I'd like to write up for the site that features some, though. Must get round to finishing that.

K.

The Mist-Form get's really Mysterious(yes, bad pun, i know), once you take into accont whether or not his clothes and other belongings get changed to mist and rematerialize later on too or not ^^

Alleviate Allergy reduces the level of the allergy - from Severe to Moderate, to Mild, to nothing; not simply the penalties as you seem to believe. A vampire with 2 Hits on Alleviate Allergy (Sunlight) retains full benefit of Regeneration while outside at noon, middle of the summer.

As for Regeneration healing Stun damage:


Note: SR4 Regeneration could also heal Stun damage, it was just poorly written.

To avoid the endless questions that could open up with the ability to turn equipment and clothes into mist along with your body, I would have them not transform. So my game would have lots of naked vampires running around. Not that I particularly mind some naked vampires, but I just find the mist form too... I don't know? Fantasy? It's one of those things like teleporting or ghosts that just doesn't fit so well in Shadowrun, imo.

About giving vampires counterspelling and whatnot, do that, but do it and more. You talked about Initiating anyways, so while you're already Initiating, take Shielding and either Reflecting or Absorbing.

Don't skimp on the Power Foci (or the Sustaining Foci if you're gunna be sustaining so many spells). And to that end, don't skimp on the Ally Spirit either. Inhabitation/Possession-formed Ally Spirits have a lot of really good uses. For more ideas, go here.

That's rather simple. Male vampire's cloth turn to mist, female vampire's don't. No one knows why exactly that is.

I've dropped Mist Form and replaced it with Influence. It fits better IMO.


Evidence? Example? Proof?

Two questions about Vampires.

1. In regards to Mist Form. When in mist form is the vampire invulnerable to magic? For example if a mage is able to make them out astrally or physically, would a spell caster be able to him them with a manabolt.

2. Not sure if anyone has read "Terminus Experiment" by Jak Koke. The story featured a vampire abominations in which a mad scientist named Oslo Wake set up a shelter and soup kitchen for the homeless population of Seattle. He ended up abducting them and turning them all into genetic vampires. He also grafted them with Cyberware to see if they would be able to survive the process. Many metahumans survived, but others died as well.

So here's the question: Vampire and Cyber/bioware? Does their genetic makeup reject the infusion or is it possible through Cybermancy or another form of 6th world science/magic?

1) IIRC there's nothing indicating that the mist form is immune to magic, so I'd say they are affected as normal.

2) This is clearly lined out in Runner's Companion. Any infected without the regeneration power can accept any cyber- or bioware as normal. Any infected with said power (like regular old vampires) can only accept deltaware-implants.
Geneware doesn't work for infected at all, thanks to the HMHVV-retrovirus.

And for the record, SR novels are usually not even tangentially related to canon, the "Terminus Project" wasn't even close to being correct by the time it came out. And I think it's a quite terrible book as well, but that's subjective opinion.

Vampires already are incredibly lethal, having Attribute and initiative bonuses, regeneration, and powers. If you want an even more lethal vampire, an adept or mage with a few levels of initiation can be very tough. If you want Anne Rice style vampires, just make them all bisexual.

Vampires don't seem as overwhelming because they exist in a world with lots of other things that are tough. The rise of magic has brought people who can channel incredible energies through their bodies, and the remorseless pace of technology has brought increasingly lethal weaponry, and people who have had their own bodies modified with technology to leave unaugmented humanity behind. In the Anne Rice books, vampires were pretty much the only game in town. Shadowrun more resembles the increasingly popular urban fantasy books, where vampires rub shoulders with lots of other supernatural critters and magically gifted humans - only you add high tech to the mix (by the way, just as vampires can be awakened, there's nothing stopping them from taking advantage of high tech themselves, either - a master vampire can have LMG-toting drones as well as more traditional minions).

Vamp power comes with age.. and vamps have been around for what.. 70 years? give them another few hundred years and you got annie rice vamps.. or VTM vamps akin to 5-6th generation..

I'm just taking a stab at this, but beyond greater entrenchment, influence, and wealth (immortality means watching those long-term high-yield investments roll in), old vampires would most likely be extra scary as a result repeat initiation. Any 6th-level initiate is pretty bleeping scary even before you make 'em vampires.

Still they grow in power with age. Much maybe at the same speed as a runner but if you ran for 60 years solid as a mystic adept well I think 6th-level initiate scary would be past.

That's one of the reasons that I would prefer that initiation and submersion have hard caps like everything else in the game. Less due to possible abuse from players (since it will only become a factor in either extremely long-running or extremely high-Karma games), and more to prevent 100-year old vampire and/or immortal elf GM cheese-monsters. Personally, I think Karma advancement only works for the narrow range of active shadowrunners working to improve themselves, and it breaks down whenever you try to use it to justify some dumbass uber-NPC (well, he gets 1 Karma a month, for 300 years... ).

I would give them a slightly higher cap (maybe cap it at 9 for normal PCs, but 12 for century+ vampires or IEs), but no ridiculous triple-digit initiate grades. If anyone argues that an immortal being should be able to do better than that, I would point out that 100+ years of experience apparently can't raise a base skill rating past 7 - Magic should be no different.


Now, if you want really scary vampires, take the Laurell K. Hamilton approach - make them whiny and insecure, and then have three or four of them all fall in love with the same PC. Then add a drake and a few shapeshifters to the mix.

Initiate/Submersion Grade cannot exceed 5, natural Magic/Resonance cannot exceed 7. Magic/Resonance follows the normal rules for augmented maximums (natural maximum up to 7, augmented maximum up to 10).

Certain unique creatures are not subject to this limit *cough*greatdragons*cough*


In my game, spirit/sprite attributes are also one-half Force/Rating (round up), so they cannot ever have a natural Magic/Resonance greater than their summoner/compiler.

That's a houserule, right? I'm pretty sure that - by RAW - natural Magic can go as high as Essence + Grade and (if you find a way to do it) augmented Magic would be 150% of that value.

RAW, Magic has no augmented maximum.

The only way to have an "augmented" Magic rating is to temporarily boost Magic is by using the Essence Drain power, then spending the excess points to boost the Magic rating.


I don't know where Muspellsheimr is getting this rule from - I have never seen it anywhere. Page number?

His proctologist could probably tell us that if not for HIPPA.

I could have been clearer, I guess, but I did not feel it was necessary. What I posted was a suggestion, that I have posted multiple times in the past as house rules. Further, I did not correct the assumption of it being a house rule when asked - it should not be difficult to figure that out.

Or through Aspected Domains. Which potentially allows for increasing Magic to far beyond it's maximum value. So the lack of augmented maximums for special attributes (such as Magic) is notable.

Technically, aspected domains provide a dice pool bonus.

Generally, it is a good idea to tell people when you are talking about house rules. There are a lot of newer players here.

True.

As to the above question about Initiation grades and whatnot, we now have much more expensive Magic attribute increases. That may not limit Initiation Grades, but it'll definately limit Magic increases.

Also, see my signature for Inhabitation Spirit fun. Any vamp worth his... blood... or something vampy... would have thought of this long ago, and would be nearing completion of his Quest For Pow'r ™, much akin to Prince Arthas from WotLK.