Wondering what your guys' thoughts were. Wanted to make a dual pistol prime runner for my game. Is it balanced? Any houserules?

It's balanced well enough - you won't really get a whole lot out of it, but that's a big part of what makes it balanced.

Specialize in the type of pistols you use. Dice pool modifiers apply after the split (this includes specialization as well as range, movement, vision, etc)

I would recommend using machine pistols (or burst modified heavy pistols) with the most recoil comp you can stuff into them if you want to use pistols. Wide burst, wide burst, wide burst, narrow burst against the big bad guys and just hose down the mooks.

Think of the "Killer" from Fung Shui. "Carnival of Carnage" and "Both Guns Blazing" (Because shooting someone in the chest with two .45's is a good way to see how tough they are) is your target.

make sure the probability to fuck up is low enough and use two monowhips instead . .
or get the biggest, baddest revolvers with smart motor and add more bang to the stuff.
there was a bult around here somehwere, where someone quadruple-wielded SMG's with reasonable dice-pools in short burst . .
that would be the extreme, but try to dig it up and apply the modifications to only dual-wield and you can fire long narrow bursts without uch problem i would think
Also, i would more likely think of the guy who did gun-fu, all in white, cannot remember name of movie or guy . .
equilibrium, my brainum tells me O.o
or do two-hand-revi from black lagoon ^^

Its more for style than actual advantage. It does confer a slight advantage but once you factor in the cost of a second weapon, buying the Ambidextrous skill, and the ammunition for two weapons the advantage is mostly lost.

Machine pistols arent a bad idea for dual wield but remember you have to haul the bullets around so something that can spew lead at a prodigious rate isnt going to help you because eventually you gotta re-load (Which is also tough with both hands full)

Modify Fore-Arm-Gun-Slides so they become Fore-Arm-Clip-Slides.
Eject spent clips via smartlink dni command as a free action, and reload using these as a free action too O.o
you can actually do autofire faster that way than real full auto, in terms of bullets per round/second i think ^^

also: WTF?
how and when did i become prime runner? o.O

What the... I can only assume this involved a character with two cyberarms wielding an SMG in each hand, plus an additional SMG on an external mount attached to each arm. My question is, how the hell would you coordinate four weapons at once?

Poorly.

But if you're not the only one shooting, it's going to be a brutal way of stacking up the Dodge penalties applied when the guy who's firing narrow bursts from an assault rifle lays into your target.

Equilibrium is the movie you're thinking. And yeah, I wanted dual pistols for more style than mechanical advantage. This guy was more inspired by Justice, from Afro Samurai, but I wanted him with old-school obvious cyberarms with forearm gun slides. Thanks for the replies everyone. It's good to know dicepool modifiers are added after the split, that makes it not so bad. Using two weapons is supposed to be difficult!

A thought crossed my mind as you split you dice pool one could in theory use two different skills say a MP or SMG and a heavy pistol (the latter could even be modded for FA if you want). then you'll be splitting all you dice in automatics and all your dice in pistols. At least that's how I read RAW.

Don't have my BBB here in my office, but per SR4A, you split the pool you'd get for the worse of the two skills and use that for both attacks.

Same in my BBB. Must have overlookec that in my last reading.

The best thing about dual wielding is that it gives you options. Options are good. Of course, if you're not build for dual wielding, don't bother. You're just going to waste bullets and embarrass yourself when your tiny, split dice pool glitches. Or critically glitches.

When dual wielding you can:

Mow down goons with the best of them. Seriously, mooks suck most of the time.

Wear down a high Reaction (+Dodge) foe. By your fourth shot in a single pass, they're already at -3 to their defense DP (assuming you're not tacking the wide burst modifier on too). If you have more Passes than your target, you can slow down your rate of fire after they've used up their last action and concentrate more on high dice pool kills.

You can also use your highly inflated dice pool to do a one shot, one kill thing. Very handy for putting the fear in people and punching holes in tough targets.

Depending on your style, you can go a bunch of different ways with your weapons:

The Gunslinger Adept's smartlinked Colt Manhunters are a really good call. More ammo than a Predator, laser sight for intimidation purposed and when you don't have your contacts, and they're just a good, solid gun.

I've grown partial to modified Ruger Super Warhawks. Add a factory Smartlink, Increased Cylinder, Firing Selection Change (Semi-Auto), and Personalized Grip. And Melee Hardening, just for the hell of it. Throw in some EX-Explosive rounds (at start) or APDS (after you can upgrade) for maximum penetration. Either way, they hit hard.

I've seen Yamaha Pulsars and Fichetti Security 600's loaded with Stick-N-Shock used to absolutely brutal effect.

And then there's the machine pistol option, mentioned above. I haven't explored that option much, honestly. I'd probably go for heavily modified Steyr TMPs or Ares Crusaders. Since its a relatively light round, Stick-N-Shock might be a good way to defeat armor.

Other things you should consider investing in:

Smartlink. They don't work while you're dual wielding, but they are must-haves when you fire single shots. Plus smartlinks allow you to do all the silly smartlink stuff, like ejecting clips, etc. Don't leave home without it.

Specialization. Pick a weapon. As dice pool modifiers, these are essential to making a gunslinger concept work. Don't leave home without it.

Reflex Boost. Something, anything, to get you additional Passes. They will save your bacon, I promise. Don't leave home without it.

Reflex Recorder. As a dice pool modifier, these are excellent buys, if you can afford them. Luxury.

Synthacardium. If you have Gymnastics, you can add your Sythacardium dice to your Gymnastic Dodge! Truly gross and you get to look like you're in a crazy Neo-wannabe. Luxury.

Forearm Gyromounts. These are great if you have cyberarms and make the whole dual Machine Pistol/SMG firing wide bursts thing really viable. Niche.

By now we're getting to the point of silliness. If you want to keep it more down to Earth, take a good look at the Gunslinger Adept. She's a clean, straight forward build. And he big advantage is that she doesn't suck with any gun... she's just better with pistols.

-paws

A four armed changeling is more likely.

As mentioned above, dual-weilding gives you options. It also allows you to put more rounds down range in a single combat turn if needed (ie suppressive fire). It can keep you in combat longer (as you don't need to reload right away if your using one weapon at a time). I would make sure that you have the Ambidextrous Quality though.

Why?

because it's true.
it was real quadruple-wield.
not wielding 2 weapons per arm.
he could pretty much use short narrow or wide burst on 4 different targets, if he wanted to.
or use his fucking huge dice-pool for some devastating full bursts.

Why exactly do smartlinks not work when dual-wielding?

Using a weapon in each hand becomes especially effective if you don't fire them simultaneously. Fire a long burst with each at the full, not split, dicepool and get the smartlink bonus on both.

@Reflex Recorder: according to the errata, the Reflex Recorder increases the Skill Rating. So the +1 is added before the split. Improved Ability works the same way after the errata.

Game-Balance.
Nothing Else.
Also, when you do not actually shoot all those weapons at once, you get to use Smartlink even if you are using 6 hands and single shot weapons . .

That's... not quite the answer I was looking for. Mäx's reply implied that a four-armed changeling is inherently more probable than a cybered-up gun freak, and I would like to know why.

There is a metavariant that has four arms. I cant recall the name at the moment

Nartaki

because even if you plaster weapon mounts all over your body, you are not really quadruple-wielding anything.

Can anyone give me a tip about where is stated that Smartlink doesn't apply when dual wielding?

Ambidexterous Quality i think.

No i just ment that it was more likely to be a four armed changeling who was quadwielding in the build that was being refenced.


In ranged combat modifiers list under the header "Attacker Using a Second Firearm" in page 141(SR4)/150(SR4A)

Yes those are the chaps, I wonder if you would suffer penalties QUAD wielding

Wow, split hairs much? Are you saying that if I have a Predator in my right hand and an external mount on my right forearm with another Predator attached to it, I wouldn't have to split my dice pool to fire them both at once? Because I have to tell you, that sounds totally batshit insane to me.

But it's true.
More or less.
You can effectively use them as self targetting Attachments that have their own Attributes and their own Initiative Score and so have nothing to do with your character.
Aside from being mounted onto him. You CAN use them to fire on Targets you yourself have specified. But you would not be using the appropriate Weapons-Skill, but Gunnery.
Technically, you have just become a more or less biological Vehicle which has Weapon-Moints. And those Mounts are used by yourself, like a Vehicle would with an Agent.

Same as with Dual-Wield.
You can buy the Ambidexterity Edge for each pair of Arms.
And you have to buy it, if you wanna be half-way-effective . .
Hmm . . 6 Halves is still 3 Times as effective O.o . .

Is that in Augmentation? How does it work for balance purposes? It seems to me that it allows a character to sidestep the balancing mechanism of split dice pools just by spending nuyen and Essence/capacity.

Balance Factor that the Attributes of those mounts are generally so bad that only a lucky hit can do anything . .
and the question:"do you want your guns to decide who to shoot?"

So what would be the actual issue behind using a Nartaki and having all four arms fire at once?

Nothing, if you ask me.
It's more or less what they are built for.
There is no real advantage to having more arms.
You only use it for style, and then you are easy to find.
And it's hard enough to get them to do that good enough.
But it is the only way to do it too.
There are no rules for getting more Arms through Cyber.

I don't think it was mentioned earlier (I could have missed it), but I prefer dual wielding SMG's. While the Ingram & Uzi is not the best weapon for this purpose, dual wielding them just makes me smile.

Reminds me of Ghost from the 1e/2e cover.



SR4 pg 141 under the Attacker Using a Second Weapon section

Does the smartlink limitation limit to only one gun when dual wielding (i.e. cannot switch between two smartlinked weapons) period or one gun at a time? Its a subtle but important distinction...

- J.

Dual-Wield meaning you fire BOTH GUNS using THE SAME ACTION.
In that case Smartlink does not apply AT ALL.
If you fire your weapons left, right, left, right, with different Actions,
you get the Smartlink Bonus to both weapons, as per the Rules.

Ok. That makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

- J.

No Problemo.
For such a Built, i would not use Smartlink anyway.
Laser-Pointer would get the Bonus while dual-wielded i think . .

If you shoot both weapons in the same action phase, Laser Sights don't work either. If you shoot them one after the other they work. The only difference between them and the smartlink is that they only give +1 each but don't need a free action to switch.

... except for ejecting clips as a free action.

I hate wasting time reloading.

- J.

Okay, yes, i forgot about that.
Now with SMG's and big clips,
with at least two of them, would
you really need to switch clips
like all that often at all?

Smartlinks also allow you to change firing modes as a free action. Very handy if you're using automatics.

-paws

While I could be wrong (can't check right now), I do believe Tracers do work while dual wielding. So if you fire bursts, basically gives you the effect of Smartlink/Laser Sights.

Hmm. I hadn't considered that, but it looks like you're right.

Since they're only usable beyond Short range though, they're not the best pick for a close up firefight. Looks like it stacks with l;aser sights, but not smartlinks. Weird.

-paws

Anyone played a pistol/melee weapon combo (here comes the chummer with his predator and monofilament sword) ?? Is it useful per your experience ?? Tx in advance.

Built gun into Handle of sword.
Not Gunblade, that the bullet goes out parallel to the blade, but that you hold the sword on the guns grip and the blade extends from the barrel upwards.
Gives a nice way to clear up the locked stalemate.
Usually, it's not really usefull to be dual-wielding close combat and ranged weapon.

Except for style or you been playing to much WH40K SMurfs with lots of Assault Marines.

No they don't
Neither Smartlink nor Laser Pointer.Not Akimbo Style (= Dual wielding)
By the Way ,I'm playing a Nartaki (Well actually its a surged Elf but never mind)
he is Maximised in Holdouts and MPs with about 12 to 14 Dice + Specialisation (and Ambidextrous 1)
to get full ambidexterity (no Mali) you have to take the Advantage 3 Times
His Dicepool gets ridiculously Low with more than 2 Weapons at the same Time
(4-6 Dice each with 3 Weapons and 2-4 Dice each with all 4 depends upon his combinations)
he's very Good at mowing down Mooks,but only under ideal Circumstances (close Range,good sight no Cover for Enemies)
and also very Good at Melee fighting (4 Tulwars with personalized Grip)
What I really like about him is his Options ;he Can use Firearms & Melee Weapons in a lot of Kombinations
And Tracers add their Bonus after the Poolsplitting (its a Modifier)

with a four Legged Dance
Medicineman