Enhanced Senses like enhanced smell and hearing for guard dogs is a great way to catch those skulking Runners as they try to sneak into a secure compound for a little friendly Data theft. But how do they work? There are no mechanics as far as the Enhanced Senses go in the Critter Powers description. For my game I have added a number of dice equal to the number of enhanced senses for a perception test so for example a guard dog would get:
Perception:3+Intuition:2+Enhanced Smell+Enhanced Hearing=7 dice
How do you approach this? Any suggestions or rules I missed? I mean this workls fine but if there is something I missed that should be applied to this I would rather follow that ruling.
Full Version: Enhanced Senses Mechanics
By RAW (written or otherwise) I think "Enhance Senses" merely means that the critter can use that sense in a Perception test. No bonus dice as far as I am aware.
(Reasoning: Metahumans generally don't make Perception (smell) tests)
(Reasoning: Metahumans generally don't make Perception (smell) tests)
As I read the use of perception it includes all situations that involves sight, hearing, smell, touch, or taste. More successes give more information. I catch your meaning though Draco, and probably won't add a positive modifier. But what is the advantage to having enhanced senses? I guess that it means a guard dog will be able to smell or hear a PC where as a PC would more likely only see the Dog.
I'm as stumped as you are.
Blue Planet was a system that had....6? kinds of perception, IIRC (Taste, Touch, Smell, Sight, Hear, Chemical--though I don't remember what that one was, knowing that something you were looking(etc.) at was toxic maybe).
Blue Planet was a system that had....6? kinds of perception, IIRC (Taste, Touch, Smell, Sight, Hear, Chemical--though I don't remember what that one was, knowing that something you were looking(etc.) at was toxic maybe).
Put it this way guys: the average human cannot track an animal or metahuman by smell - they cannot even make the Perception Test; a character with Enhanced Sense(smell) can. A character without thermographic vision cannot make Perception Test to view something in those wavelengths, period.
What about Enhanced Hearing?
I can hear things. I can even track things by sound.
I can hear things. I can even track things by sound.
But you have limits to your hearing - sounds that are too soft to hear, or outside the metahuman hearing frequency range - and your ability to pinpoint sound sources is less than that of creatures with more highly developed hearing.
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 10 2009, 06:22 PM) 
But you have limits to your hearing - sounds that are too soft to hear, or outside the metahuman hearing frequency range - and your ability to pinpoint sound sources is less than that of creatures with more highly developed hearing.
Ah ha.
So where's that in RAW?
Basically, Ancient is trying to BS his way out of saying there is no mechanical effect. I rule the critter power to function identically to the Adept Improved Sense power, which has been changed/clarified.
SR4 House Errata
SR4 House Errata
[ Spoiler ]
I disagree. He's trying to explain that there are so many possible enhanced senses, that it would've taken to much room to explain each one. You can see good examples/guidelines under the Improved Sense Adept powers and the you can easily extrapolate from the critter descriptions the nature of the enhanced sense.
P117 Using Perception. And do you need a RAW reference for the limit of what frequencies of light and sound a normal human can perceive?
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 10 2009, 06:26 PM)
Ah ha.
So where's that in RAW?
So where's that in RAW?
P117 Using Perception. And do you need a RAW reference for the limit of what frequencies of light and sound a normal human can perceive?
QUOTE (Cabral @ Apr 10 2009, 07:03 PM)
I disagree. He's trying to explain that there are so many possible enhanced senses, that it would've taken to much room to explain each one. You can see good examples/guidelines under the Improved Sense Adept powers and the you can easily extrapolate from the critter descriptions the nature of the enhanced sense.
He's spewing a bunch of shit that has no RAW support whatsoever. Enhanced Sense does not direct you to Improved Sense for examples, or anywhere else. It has no explanation whatsoever for how it works, & Ancient is trying to BS that it does.
QUOTE
P117 Using Perception. And do you need a RAW reference for the limit of what frequencies of light and sound a normal human can perceive?
p.117 has jack shit to do with what was in question.
Ye gods and hairy fishes, M, what crawled up your ass and died?
You're right in that there is no clear mechanical effect (except where modifiers for thermographic/low light vision already exist, etc.) but it is a reasonable and common-sense interpretation that if a critter has an Enhanced Sense, it can use the Perception skill with that sense.
[/edit]It's not that your idea doesn't have merit, Musp. You're just being a real dick about it.
QUOTE ("Enhanced Senses Critter Power")
Enhanced Senses covers any improved or augmented senses beyond the normal human range of awareness. This includes low-light and thermographic vision, improved hearing and smell, heat-sensing organs, natural sonar, and so on.
You're right in that there is no clear mechanical effect (except where modifiers for thermographic/low light vision already exist, etc.) but it is a reasonable and common-sense interpretation that if a critter has an Enhanced Sense, it can use the Perception skill with that sense.
[/edit]It's not that your idea doesn't have merit, Musp. You're just being a real dick about it.
Not the best week.
And every-day Humans, by RAW, can make scent Perception tests, so saying Enhanced Sense (Scent) allows you to make scent-based Perception tests is bullshit.
And every-day Humans, by RAW, can make scent Perception tests, so saying Enhanced Sense (Scent) allows you to make scent-based Perception tests is bullshit.
I didn't say they couldn't (the rules are actually fairly explicit in saying the can), but your average human does not have the fine sense of smell of some critters, and it would not be unbelievable or game-breaking for a critter with Enhanced Senses (Improved Smell) to be afforded a Perception Test where a normal metahuman would not.
If there was a sound at 24kHz going on in the background, it would be fair not to roll Perception for normal humans to hear it because it's way out of their range of hearing. (20-20kHz on average, and most people lose the upper ranges as they grow older)
If there was a sound at 24kHz going on in the background, it would be fair not to roll Perception for normal humans to hear it because it's way out of their range of hearing. (20-20kHz on average, and most people lose the upper ranges as they grow older)
Which makes sense, but has no RAW support.
The recipe for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches isn't in the rulebook either, but characters can still make them. The "you can't make Perception tests for things that are beyond the range of your normal sense" may not be written explicitly, but neither is it countered anywhere either.
Not what I was talking about - what I was addressing is that Enhanced Sense (Smell), or most other Enhanced Sense abilities, have no definition of what that Enhanced Sense does.
With RAW, a normal Human is no different than a bloodhound with Enhanced Sense (Smell). The bloodhound can 'smell better' - which means what? As written, nothing.
With RAW, a normal Human is no different than a bloodhound with Enhanced Sense (Smell). The bloodhound can 'smell better' - which means what? As written, nothing.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 11 2009, 04:34 PM)
Not what I was talking about - what I was addressing is that Enhanced Sense (Smell), or most other Enhanced Sense abilities, have no definition of what that Enhanced Sense does. With RAW, a normal Human is no different than a bloodhound with Enhanced Sense (Smell). The bloodhound can 'smell better' - which means what? As written, nothing.
I would personally agree that it would be nice if there were some guidelines in place, maybe an example or two. But I think it's pretty obvious what the difference is. A human who has a sense of smell smells body odor. A dog with a sense of smell smells Jojo the Troll's body odor, and can identify him by it and track that body odor to a degree.
Myself, I'd probably give minor bonuses if it made sense to someone with an Enhanced Sense, if the person sneaking or what have you didn't have something negating it. It's what circumstantial bonuses are for, really.
- Eleint
...and we're back in PB&J territory again.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 11 2009, 12:38 PM)
He's spewing a bunch of shit that has no RAW support whatsoever. Enhanced Sense does not direct you to Improved Sense for examples, or anywhere else. It has no explanation whatsoever for how it works, & Ancient is trying to BS that it does.
That was a little rude, don't you think...
Give him a break, he's had a hard week. I've been there.
QUOTE
But you have limits to your hearing - sounds that are too soft to hear, or outside the metahuman hearing frequency range - and your ability to pinpoint sound sources is less than that of creatures with more highly developed hearing.
This suggests that Enhanced Senses (Hearing) counts as both Audio Enhancement (but at what rating?) and a Spatial Recognizer. Is this what you intended?
Let's take a few PC-relevant specific questions:
1) What are the game mechanics of a PC ghoul's Enhanced Senses (Hearing)?
2+) Same as above but insert Banshee/Nosferatu/Wendigo/Vampire in place of Ghoul.
Lot of Questions:
Can Enhanced Senses stand in for sight in combat?
(To put it another way) Can the Enhanced Smell of the ghoul (it reaks) negate the blind penalties (a hefty -6) in combat?
Is thermograph always sight?
Could it be agrued that is is move in the realms of an advanced touch (feeling heat)?
If you can cast spells by thermographic (yes, this old chestnut), could you cast by touch using my arguement above?
Is ultrasonic always be translated by sight even though its really an advanced hearing?
Can my arguement for touch and magic be applied to hearing then as well?
I know the old arguement about sight is all the RAW will allow to target spells with, but if enhanced senses could allow for a detailed perception (opposed the mere human detection in the case of smell for example) test; could it not also extend to combat (making ghouls that much more dangerous) and subsequentially (sp?) spell targeting?
AH, you opened pandora's box and found this conversation inside. I know you have conections with the WORD of GOD (if you are not it), but all I ask for is an opinion.
I am seriously considering making enhanced senses perception savvy and combat savvy......and I'm entertaining opinions on the old spell targeting. I'm still undecided on that one.
Can Enhanced Senses stand in for sight in combat?
(To put it another way) Can the Enhanced Smell of the ghoul (it reaks) negate the blind penalties (a hefty -6) in combat?
Is thermograph always sight?
Could it be agrued that is is move in the realms of an advanced touch (feeling heat)?
If you can cast spells by thermographic (yes, this old chestnut), could you cast by touch using my arguement above?
Is ultrasonic always be translated by sight even though its really an advanced hearing?
Can my arguement for touch and magic be applied to hearing then as well?
I know the old arguement about sight is all the RAW will allow to target spells with, but if enhanced senses could allow for a detailed perception (opposed the mere human detection in the case of smell for example) test; could it not also extend to combat (making ghouls that much more dangerous) and subsequentially (sp?) spell targeting?
AH, you opened pandora's box and found this conversation inside. I know you have conections with the WORD of GOD (if you are not it), but all I ask for is an opinion.
I am seriously considering making enhanced senses perception savvy and combat savvy......and I'm entertaining opinions on the old spell targeting. I'm still undecided on that one.
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Apr 20 2009, 02:38 AM)
1) What are the game mechanics of a PC ghoul's Enhanced Senses (Hearing)?
If I said there were any definite ones in the rulebook at the moment, I'd be lying. In most cases, the gamemaster has to decide the exact effects or relevance of an enhanced sense in a given situation (just as they generally have to decide what a regular character can see, smell, taste, hear, or feel).
QUOTE
Can Enhanced Senses stand in for sight in combat?
Depends on the sense, but as a gamemaster I would generally say no. Supplementary senses might lower the penalty at the gamemaster's discretion, or at least allow the character to take aim - there was a magnificent story about an old rat-hunter that used a pistol; he would load one bullet in and move carefully into the room, taking a step at a time on the creaking boards, listening to the skitter of the rat...and then when everything was still he'd smile, shoot at one patch of floor no different than any other, and when they pried up the board they found a rat with a bullet between his eyes - but I digress. Enhanced Sense(smell) doesn't help much directly in combat unless the subject is standing still and upwind.
QUOTE
Is thermograph always sight?
No, there is a distinction between thermographic sight and thermographic sense, though for all practical purposes and game mechanics both are treated as thermographic vision.
QUOTE
If you can cast spells by thermographic (yes, this old chestnut), could you cast by touch using my arguement above?
I've always been of the opinion that touch counts for casting spells (particularly touch spells), even if the caster is blind, and indirect combat spells are generally pick-a-direction affairs to begin with.
QUOTE
Is ultrasonic always be translated by sight even though its really an advanced hearing?
There is a distinction between ultrasound sight, which is a vision enhancement, and natural sonar such as used by bats and other critters. In the former case, the sound information is being interpreted and displayed as visual information; in the latter it is not.
QUOTE
Can my arguement for touch and magic be applied to hearing then as well?
Hearing is iffier, because except in cases like ultrasound sight it is not comparable to sight in terms of conveying details of the target, including their distance and surroundings. It might call for a smaller modifier on a ranged attack test when casting indirect combat spells.
QUOTE
(just as they generally have to decide what a regular character can see, smell, taste, hear, or feel).
At least Low-Light Vision and Thermographic Vision have mechanical effects and help to determine what can be seen.
The Impaired (Sense) negative quality also has mechanical effects, and applying those in reverse (a +3 dice modifier with the given sense) might be a KISS way to do Enhanced Senses.
Dracoforms have Enhanced Senses (Wide-Band Hearing), which I gather applies to both infrasound and ultrasound, but this appears to be distinct from Enhanced Senses (Hearing) - at least in this particular case, so (Hearing) differs in some ways to (Wide-Band Hearing).
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Apr 19 2009, 07:38 PM)
This suggests that Enhanced Senses (Hearing) counts as both Audio Enhancement (but at what rating?) and a Spatial Recognizer. Is this what you intended?
Let's take a few PC-relevant specific questions:
1) What are the game mechanics of a PC ghoul's Enhanced Senses (Hearing)?
2+) Same as above but insert Banshee/Nosferatu/Wendigo/Vampire in place of Ghoul.
Let's take a few PC-relevant specific questions:
1) What are the game mechanics of a PC ghoul's Enhanced Senses (Hearing)?
2+) Same as above but insert Banshee/Nosferatu/Wendigo/Vampire in place of Ghoul.
Partial Answer here. It may not make much sense, but it IS read as written.
QUOTE (RC p77 @ Magic and Essence)
Magic is used for any tests involing an affected's innate powers. If an infected character's Magic attribute is reduced to zero(temporarily or permanently), it loses all of its powers except natural weapon and enhanced senses, if any.
So when you roll a Perception test using an infected's enhanced sense, you use their magic attribute instead of intuition. Or, possibly, as the rating of the sense in question. As usual, hits determine what you see with it. Ugh. Thats horrible. Its like giving a seperate sensor rating to people.
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