Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Charactor Build Help
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Shinobi Killfist
We are starting a new campaign where we are all former lonestar officers involved in a paranormal investigation that went wrong. It happened near the time of crash 2.0 which basically caused us to become free of lonestar. And we have been shadowrunners since, while trying to figure out what went wrong that night and fix the problem if we can. Especially now that we are no longer held back by corp restrictions. I'm thinking of having my charactor still be tied a bit to lonestar so a group contact to them. Thing is i want an occult detective style character either a phys add or a mage. I basically stole my background from Bond and Magnum PI. And it is below. Unfortunately he needs to be a quasi competent face since we are short one face,(GM wants us to have 2) so at least 8 dice total in the influence pack. If anyone has any build ideas it would be appreciated, i keep running out of points. I've been trying to fit a 6 magic into the character since I wont ever feel like boosting it once its 6, and under 4a that would be 30 karma. We use standard 400BP rules.

So Far:
Body 3
Agility 3
Reaction 2
Strength 1
Charisma 5
Intuition 5
Logic 5
Willpower 4
Edge 2
Magic 6

Influence 4

At this point I'm drawing a blank, i'm not sure where to go and what to do. What positive qualities and negatives? What contacts beyond lonestar(and ouch will that be expensive), what spells would fit for a occult detective for lonestar(im digging catalog so far), if a phys add which powers would you suggest analytics, and boosted perception and then i'm done. I can usually bust characters out, but I got nothing this time. In the other SR game I am in, i play a Street Sam and I want to stay away from that type this game.



Lonestar Personal File: Lieutenant Johnathon Cannon
Lieutenant Joe Cannon is a XXXXXXXX stationed at Lonestar Seattle headquarters.

Born in CalFree, Cannon grew up in New York and Germany untill the age of 11.
At the age of 11, Cannon suffered the loss of both parents in a drunk driving accident while attempting to apprehend a known terrois, who is still at large. This event had a profound impact. In his later teens, Cannon lost his one surviving close relative, his aunt Daisy. Cannon Like most who lose parents in their youth, Cannon has abandonment issues. He rarely makes long-lasting relationships with men or women. He professes to have never fallen in love. He maintains no friendships from before his parents' death and only the most irregular contact with friends from his late teens Cannon then moved to Miami, Florida, where he lived with his aunt.

Cannon's one strong relationship with an adult from his teens and early twenties ' one Marion Robert Morrison of San Antonio, Texas ended when Morrison disappeared mysteriously. Cannon has referred to Morrison as a second father.

He eventually attended Lone Star Primer Academy untill he was 13 because he was expelled for repeated curfew violations and 'trouble' with the chemistry lab. Cannon then attended LOSMA(Lonestar Magical Academy) where he won numerous competitions.
At the age of 17 he joined the Lonestar Acadmey, studying at the the San Antonio headquarters. Cannon excelled in all areas of training and he seemed to come into his own upon his entrance into the service. Cannon matriculated from his coursework for procedure with passable marks. However, Cannon excelled at magical competitions, strategic operations,and counter-intelligence courses, but his unconventional approach to his education, his diffident attitude to certain of his superiors, and a lack of respect for curfew drew him many demerits. On more than one occasion, a fellow candidate was strongly suspected of lying to protect Cannon from punishment.

After graduating Adademy, Cannon was recruited by the Paranormal Investigative Service. After becoming an Officer, he was given the FastResponse status after two “takedowns�.

Cannon enjoys pushing himself to he limit, both mentally and physically. Cannon's stress levels actually drop when the stakes are higher. He is prone to boredom and mild depression when not challenged. Cannon enjoys drinking and gambling, although the former seems to be a way for him to test his personal limits at times rather than a vice. Cannon has been known to gamble more than he can afford to lose, although he always gambles with a plan and a clear understanding of the odds.

Cannon is goal-oriented, but he often seeks these goals in an indirect and secretive way. He's financially challenged. He's emotionally insecure and vulnerable, and at times possesses a callous hardness that verges on abrasive. He kind of bumbles around with little direction or drive unless challenged, and he can have a dubious work ethic at times. He has kept many areas of his life meticulously compartmentalized, never allowing the emotional issues from the loss of his family or from relationships to intrude on his professional life. Cannon seems to have an emotional and mental need for multiple layers of reality. He thrives when not revealing all of himself, carefully organizing the aspects of his personality he reveals to others. Thus Cannon is excellent as burying information he does not wish to reveal, making him a very good security risk if questioned under almost any circumstance.

He strongly prefers being called "Detective" over any indication of his magical capability. One of his goals in life is to write a book on How To Be A World-Class Detective. He considers his squad to be the most important element in his life. His current squad consists of..


Cannon seeks structure in his life. He is a man of pattern and habit. He has acquired strong tastes. This is a potential security risk. Cannon both thrives under structure yet finds subtle ways of rebelling against it. He is not self-destructive, but he can be a challenge to his superiors.

Cannon uses humor as a shield and a weapon. He is skilled at making cutting remarks that reveal insecurities of others or mock death, danger and risk.

Cannon has a distinctive "look" which makes him easily identifiable. He sports a mustache. He often wears blue jeans with a hawaiian shirt, He also favors khaki field shirts and banded (collar-less) dress shirts. He likes to wear baseball caps, usually a San Francisco Giants (Home) cap or a .NRA cap. And a high quality watch. He has a particular fondness for cigars, beer, wine, Fig Newton's (dipped in milk), "macho tacos", pizza, cheese (self-proclaimed "cheese freak") and chili dogs. He collects baseball cards and masks, and has a slightly peculiar affection for rubber chicken's.

Cannon has a "little voice" whether this is a mentor spirit or a delusion is currently unknown. It seems to work as a variation on his conscience, which warns him of danger. The little voice is always counseling him, making the leaps of intuition he needs in order to escape bad situations, or to solve a crime.

Most importantly, Cannon is deeply loyal to institutions. After his parents' death, Cannon embraced his UCAS roots and Lonestar background. His concept of his nationality is a large part of his identity. This is reflected in some of his social attitudes, which seem to embrace a Lonestar identity of the not too distant past. When pressed, Cannon seems to identify with the notion of helping to 'protect the corp', of 'serving the company' and the ideals embodied in the wild west.
Windling
Concept wise, I'd reconsider the strength 1. It seems out of concept for a PI/Bond crossover type. You want to look at skills needed to pass the academy and would be required for you're job. Good news is you can look at the lonestar template. (For example, you'd need to at least know who to operate guns.)

I'm honestly not sure where you want to take the adept powers, but the easiest way to figure that out is to decide what is the common thread between your powers. You don't have to pick a way from the book, but knowing what is the common theme makes it much easier to decide what makes the cut. If you see you're running low on points I'd at least reconsider the magic 6 down to a 5. You could honestly drop it lower if you're not sure what kind or how many points of powers you want/need. (If it doesn't stand out as important, it's not as vital to the concept.)

You should also consider taking the essence hit for skillwires (or equivalent) because the "bond" part of your concept would need to be a lot more "jack of all trades" than you'll be able to pull off with the amount of skills you can buy at present. If the skills aren't important to the concept, then disregard that.

Both Bond & PI are closer to "high edge" characters; and having a better edge could help you make up for a couple sticky situations each game where you discover you weren't as fleshed out as you want / need to be.

Not sure if that will help you much. If you have much more specific questions I could help more.
xsansara
For a mage:

Drop Logic and decrease Intuition. You can't excel at everything, so choose game-relevant flaws like being unattentive and not particularly intellectual and borderline lazy, which also fits with a drinking personality.

Since you have to be a face, you should pick up CHA as the drain attribute and consider Elf for race. That should upgrade your Influence-pool so much, you can upgrade most of that later, if you need higher values.

Suggested attributes for elf:
BARS: 4321 (50 BP)
CILW: 7315 (100 BP)

Body 4 is almost a must for heavier armor (8/6)
and you have 50 BP room for improvement should you you end up with extra BP at the end of creation.

Try to save on the Skills e.g.
Conjuring Group 1
Influence Group 2
Spellslinging Group 3
etc.

That guy relies on talent not on skill.

Pick the spells on your groups munchkin level (eg. average number of actions per round is a good indicator, try not to lower it!).
For high munchkin: Enhance Reaction (with sustaining focus), Increased Invisibility, Mana Bolt are a must
For low munchkin: pick out fun spells, one Combat, maybe one Illusion, also Analyze truth and Control Emotion are fun

For Connections I would pick a more or less random string of ex-girlfriends with helper syndrome and maybe a criminal you got reformed by your good influence, but kept his ties to the underworld.

Max Edge for even more fun Edge 6 > Magic 6

For an adept:

social adepts rock hard if you specialize on the Face aspect and are willing to outplay your superhuman social skills to the fullest. "You want to shoot me? No, you meant you wanted to buy me a drink and introduce me to your sister." But I don't like to play them purely, as it is much GM-dependant how you fare and there are a lot of situations in which you can't participate. (Stealthing, fighting, ...)

With a high Munchkin level (see above) Adepts have to dump a lot of points in adequate fighting/survival skills like extra actions and Dodge and so on, so you can actually participate in the game. That doesn't leave many Magic points to put into Face, magical Perception/PI and extra Wumps. High Munchkin levels are cheaper achieved by mages (as outlined above).

On a sidenote, Adepts can be pretty good magical detectives than Mages with Astral Sight, increased Perception/Intuition, maybe Mystic Conjuring for Watchers. So that might be a package you would like to consider.

All summed up: Adepts are the fiercest specialists, basically whatever they specialize in. Multi-purpose is not really their forte. As mentioned by Windling: Find your theme/specialty and group all abilities around it to make an extraordinary character, basically the guy who can do X really, really good.
Mages are a lot more diverse and easily "multi-class" with Face or whatever, if you choose a couple of weak spots.
However, most of those weak spots can be fixed with Karma and good spells, unless you have grown to like them. While Adepts usually just get even more awesome.

I hope that helped
Shinobi Killfist
Thanks for the help. I'm not sure I can drop intuition and logic much since they are as I see it the key detective stats. I probably don't have to go with 5s but, they should be at least above average. That's a good point on Body, its needed for encumbrance. I'd like to boost my strength a smidgen but I'm cutting corners in the beginning and seeing what can fit in. I am a bit tempted to see what I can get from spell sustaining focuses to supplement weak stats. A force 3 focus costs 12 resources and 3 BP for binding and then another 3 BP for the spell. 18 BP for a potential +3 in a stat with the limitation its not always up. It feels a bit cheesy, and I'm not trying to make a powerhouse so I don't know if I'll need it. But it may help me cut some corner sin order to round the character out.

SO maybe
BARS 4321 50
CILW 7444 130
ELF 30bp
Magic 6 15or5+65=80or70
280-290 spent so far leaving 110-120 for skills, resources, maybe spells, contacts, edge and positive qualities, and with 35 points in negative qualities i have more to spend.

Summoning 1 4
Binding 1 4
Influence Group 2 20
Spellcasting 5 20
Counterspelling 2 8
Ritual Casting 1 4(only bothering with this waste of space of a skill for thematic reasons)
Perception 1
Assensing 1
68 points
30 points in spells
98 of the 110 total
with 35 point sin negative qualities that leaves 47 points for resources, contacts, edge, and positive qualities. Not bad. Only downside is I prefer logic traditions and humans. But it might be good to change thing sup a bit. Got to think more on the phys add angle there are a ton of detective powers.
ElFenrir
Ill put it out there-if you are going mage, go dwarf or ork. The latter can take the Human Looking quality, remember!

you won't have to put much BP into your Body/Strength as an Ork, and you can still have a 4 Charisma and Logic, which are great(and their Intuition has no penalty.)

Dwarves get a mild Body bonus, but a Willpower bonus too(and you'll start with a decent Strength.) You won't be able to take Human Looking, though.

Also, your ork can get a bit of cosmetic surgery with Human Looking and no one will know the difference. (Also, for someone who ''likes to push themselves physically'', a 1 strength is really....not making sense, IMO.)

Sadly, elves are the worst bang for the buck under the BP system. I say this as someone who likes playing elves often. If race isn't too important to you(since the top was human I'm guessing not), you can make an ork with:

20 BP-Race

Attributes: 200
Body: 5(10)
Agility: 3(20)
Reaction: 2(10)
Strength: 4(10)
Charisma: 4(30)
Intuition: 5(40)
Logic: 4(30)
Willpower: 5(40)


And you can take an Intuition based tradition. smile.gif You can play with these stats more if you like, too-just an example.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 11 2009, 02:21 PM) *
(Also, for someone who ''likes to push themselves physically'', a 1 strength is really....not making sense, IMO.)

Sadly, elves are the worst bang for the buck under the BP system. I say this as someone who likes playing elves often. If race isn't too important to you(since the top was human I'm guessing not), you can make an ork with:

20 BP-Race

Attributes: 200
Body: 5(10)
Agility: 3(20)
Reaction: 2(10)
Strength: 4(10)
Charisma: 4(30)
Intuition: 5(40)
Logic: 4(30)
Willpower: 5(40)


And you can take an Intuition based tradition. smile.gif You can play with these stats more if you like, too-just an example.


I'll look into ork. as for push themselves physically at the time I put it in I was visualizing a more endurance oriented push. In my youth i pushed my self physically every day by running 14+miles. If I was generous I would give myself a 2 strength back then. Now a days I mainly lift weights and go like 2-3 miles on an elliptical since my joints can no longer take the abuse. I had intended to take running with the long distance specialization built in, but I forgot.

Thanks for the help everyone, there are great ideas here great ideas and its helping me put something to paper.
Stingray
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 11 2009, 09:21 PM) *
Ill put it out there-if you are going mage, go dwarf or ork. The latter can take the Human Looking quality, remember!

you won't have to put much BP into your Body/Strength as an Ork, and you can still have a 4 Charisma and Logic, which are great(and their Intuition has no penalty.)

Dwarves get a mild Body bonus, but a Willpower bonus too(and you'll start with a decent Strength.) You won't be able to take Human Looking, though.

Also, your ork can get a bit of cosmetic surgery with Human Looking and no one will know the difference. (Also, for someone who ''likes to push themselves physically'', a 1 strength is really....not making sense, IMO.)

Sadly, elves are the worst bang for the buck under the BP system. I say this as someone who likes playing elves often. If race isn't too important to you(since the top was human I'm guessing not), you can make an ork with:

20 BP-Race

Attributes: 200
Body: 5(10)
Agility: 3(20)
Reaction: 2(10)
Strength: 4(10)
Charisma: 4(30)
Intuition: 5(40)
Logic: 4(30)
Willpower: 5(40)


And you can take an Intuition based tradition. smile.gif You can play with these stats more if you like, too-just an example.

Dwarf's can not take Human looking Quality?.. Only elves,dwarfs and orks can take Human-Looking quality. (BBB) (page 78 last sentence)
ElFenrir
Oh, they can! My bad. Thanks for the clear-up, though. smile.gif

There ya go though-if it's important to you that your guy look human for some reason, they can be either of those races and can.

But Ork and Dwarf are excellent mage choices for their BP cost. Dwarves give up a point of max Reaction and a bit slower movement for a point of Body, 2 points of Strength and a point of Willpower, along with thermo vision, and extra dice to resist poison and disease. Orks give up the point of Logic and Charisma for big Body/Strength bonuses, as well as low-light vision. Both races can make solid mages, faces, or spies. I'm a sorta hardcore fan of the ork/dwarf mage as many folks here know. biggrin.gif

Re: Taking Running-It's linked to Strength, as well, so keep that in mind, too. the Athletics Group is the one group where Strength actually is important for(climbing, running, and swimming anyway-the big popular one, Gymnastics, goes with Agility-or Reaction if you are using Gymnastics Dodge.)
Martin Silenus
I'm also building a character to fit the mage and face roles, so all this advice is interesting to me as well. Some questions on the skills people are recommending: why such low spellcasting, conjuring, et cetera? Also, why no astral combat? Are spells simply better on the astral?

Apologies if these queries are painfully newbish. I am new to the system.
xsansara
Hi Martin,

Being both face and mage, you have to make your sacrifices somewhere and skills are kind of expensive, so it is one viable choice. Also under the new Attributes cost x5 SR4A rules, it is comparatively cheap to upgrade your skills later. Another thing you will see, is that most avoid buying specialisations while building. They can be picked up much cheaper in the game.

However Shinobi is right, having a high Spellcasting from the beginning does have its advantages as you can take more spells, which can be kind of hard to pick up later on. Depending on your GM.

@Shinobi:
The reason I advised elf over human or especially ork is that elf faces are less limited in development. After some time, you may want to raise your Influence pool, which is a lot cheaper, if you already have a high CHA. Plus, they are a number of face activities that rely only on CHA, like Cha-based modifiers and so on. There are also some benefits of high CHA to mages, like more spirits and more damage in Astral Combat. It is good synergy. High Intuition also has good synergy because you can sense other people's mood or spot details you can use to influence them and mages need it for askenning and PIs need it anyway. High Logic is not needed for faces, mages mostly gain by having more foci (and drain if applicable), PIs... I am not sure which skills you are refering to. As far as I know it is most useful for demo and technical Hackers/Riggers/Technomancer.

Be aware, however that having many foci is limited by Logic and I am not sure, if Increase Logic does in fact raise that limit. Ask your GM for that.
The Mack
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 12 2009, 03:21 AM) *
Sadly, elves are the worst bang for the buck under the BP system. I say this as someone who likes playing elves often. If race isn't too important to you(since the top was human I'm guessing not)


While this might be true in terms of raw points, I've never let it affect me when making a character decision.

For one thing, Orks are limited in their mental stats. There's no way around this except INT based traditions, of which there are very few I actually like (and very few that make any sense for a real shadowrunner concept).

And while Orks may get more bonus attribute points at the start, STR does very little for a mage character.
Don't get me wrong, I think Orks are a great buy, but I also think Elves are fine and "worst bang for the buck" at worst sees elves breaking even on BPs spent and BPs gained.


I always take the long view of it and consider maximum attribute potential as well as freebies handed out at the start. Not to mention that some attributes are simply more valuable than others.


QUOTE (xsansara)
Be aware, however that having many foci is limited by Logic and I am not sure, if Increase Logic does in fact raise that limit. Ask your GM for that.


Just a bit of clarification.

MAG controls the total number of bonded foci a Mage may have as well as the total Force of all bonded Foci, LOG controls how many of those foci you can have active at once.
xsansara
QUOTE
MAG controls the total number of bonded foci a Mage may have as well as the total Force of all bonded Foci, LOG controls how many of those foci you can have active at once.


You are right, so Increase Logic should increase that limit, since it is temporarily determinable anyway.

Personally, I never considered Increase Logic. We did have a mage who used Increase Charisma to raise from 1 to 6 mostly. That was kind of odd already.
Stahlseele
Dwarf-Magician is one of the Classic builts for a Reason ^^
They are smaller, lighter, thus easier to hide/transport.
And they can get away with getting angry for being called
magical bowlingball ^^
xsansara
Nothing against dwarfs, but the call was for a Mage/Face character and I don't see how being dwarven helps with that.

Personally, I haven't played an elf in SR4 so far. My face is a bioware/crazy doctor/human. But for Mage/Face it just fits.
Stahlseele
Well, i might be a bit biased, because i love dwarves . . but in my eyes, being a dwarf helps with everything ^^
Only Problem i have with them is the lot of small jokes, short jibes and little insults one has to deal with *snickers*
The Mack
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 11 2009, 02:58 PM) *
We are starting a new campaign where we are all former lonestar officers involved in a paranormal investigation that went wrong. It happened near the time of crash 2.0 which basically caused us to become free of lonestar. And we have been shadowrunners since, while trying to figure out what went wrong that night and fix the problem if we can. Especially now that we are no longer held back by corp restrictions. I'm thinking of having my charactor still be tied a bit to lonestar so a group contact to them. Thing is i want an occult detective style character either a phys add or a mage. I basically stole my background from Bond and Magnum PI. And it is below. Unfortunately he needs to be a quasi competent face since we are short one face,(GM wants us to have 2) so at least 8 dice total in the influence pack. If anyone has any build ideas it would be appreciated, i keep running out of points. I've been trying to fit a 6 magic into the character since I wont ever feel like boosting it once its 6, and under 4a that would be 30 karma. We use standard 400BP rules.

So Far:
Body 3
Agility 3
Reaction 2
Strength 1
Charisma 5
Intuition 5
Logic 5
Willpower 4
Edge 2
Magic 6

Influence 4



I wanted to come back to your post to address a few things.

For one, if you want a mage/face, I really think an Elf Shaman will be the way to go.

CHA will work double time for your influence skills as well as soaking drain.


I think taking MAG 6 is a mistake at character creation. Even at 30 karma, I consider that "cheaper" than 25 BP. I'm not sure why you wouldn't eventually want to raise your MAG, as that's an integral attribute for either an adept or a mage.

What I might do differently, while keeping as close to what you already have as possible.

Race: Elf

Attributes
BOD: 3
AGI: 3
REA: 2
STR: 1
CHA: 5
LOG: 4
INT: 5
WIL: 5

EDG: 2
MAG: 5

Total BP = 200 + 50 on MAG/EDG

I dropped LOG because I think 4 is plenty, there probably aren't many active skills you'll have that will rely on it and as a detective you can opt for lots of "street" knowledge skills, which utilizies your INT.

I raised WIL because I think it's a very important stat. It helps your drain, as well as resisting enemy mage attacks. If you wanted to emphasize the face aspect more, you could drop WIL to 4 and take CHA to 6 (which means you'd only need Influence group at 2 for 8 dice).


QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 11 2009, 02:58 PM) *
At this point I'm drawing a blank, i'm not sure where to go and what to do. What positive qualities and negatives?


I would go very easy on the positives taking Magician, and maybe a Mentor spirit. And that's all. You have too much to buy to pick up any other stuff.

Some Mentor spirits that might help: Dog, Eagle, Owl, Spider.

I would load up on negatives, taking the full 35 BP. Take what you like for flavor or character development. I'm a big fan of In Debt as it gives you some extra spending cash as well as BPs.

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 11 2009, 02:58 PM) *
What contacts beyond lonestar(and ouch will that be expensive), what spells would fit for a occult detective for lonestar(im digging catalog so far),


Contacts, whatever you like really.

I would take one solid contact, and then several 1/1 or 2/2 contacts personally. Anyone who can provide information is great. Fixer and Talismonger would be my first choices, and then whatever you have room for.

Rather than have all of Lonestar as a contact, I would pick an "old friend" who still works there that can help you out.

Some spells I might consider: Stunbolt, Analyze Magic, Catalog, Mana Window, Thought Recognition, Detect Individual, Mind Probe, Invisibility, Stealth, Physical Mask, Influence, Levitate, Magic Fingers.
ElFenrir
Being a Dwarf helps with being a mage. Bonus Willpower, plain and simple.

QUOTE
While this might be true in terms of raw points, I've never let it affect me when making a character decision.


Oh, and again, I play elves often, regardless of cost-my current samurai is an elf, and he's wildly and amazingly effective. And the physically strongest character of the party by far, oddly enough(though we did use 750 Karma and I did get him a load of ware.) Hell, most of my characters are elves. Samurai, physad. my bear shifter takes a form of an elf and a SURGED demon-kicking machine dood. All elf. (Funny enough, most of my non-combat characters get funneled toward the big strong races.)

But I've seen a buddy of mine play an ork face just awesome, actually. Started at a 5 Charisma, didn't worry too much about physical attributes(3 and 4), had Adept face powers, high social skills, and the social edges like First Impression. He was fantastic.

Being an Elf would have given him, about 2 extra dice(since he would of had to pay more for his other attributes, to bring them up to at least reasonable levels of how he saw them and would not have been able to max Charisma, also paying more.)

In the end, it's play what you want, but when someone asks for mechanical stuff, I usually point orks and dwarves to the magician roles. When he mentioned he liked to push himself physically, both races get Body bonuses(Orks a huge one), that would fit the concept, and only lack ONE point of Charisma. Not always-sometimes, I want the full-blown, full-on mental attributes(my magical scientist is a human, and she has some Logic improvements as well to get her the Genius role. That was one character whom I really didn't care at all about physical attributes for, having been sheltered her whole entire life.)
Stahlseele
And Dwarves are damn resilent too.
And can see in total Darkness just fine.
And can be the Strong-Man, if they have to.
And they are Small. They fit in every Trolls Glove-Department *snickers* ^^
Levitating them is easier, because they are smaller.
Shape Earth, they can get tunnels faster.
If someone blind sprays bullets it's pretty likely that they will go over their head.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012