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LostProxy
I searched through one or two shapeshifter threads and something has been bugging me. People say that their really strong, almost unfair to a certain point. I'm kind of confused by how their so unfair. I have RC and I read their section and I dont see exactly how their so powerful.I searched through one or two shapeshifter threads and something has been bugging me. People say that their really strong, almost unfair to a certain point. I'm kind of confused by how their so unfair. I have RC and I read their section and I dont see exactly how their so powerful.
Windling
The two features they have that make them so strong are regeneration and dual natured. All shifters have these two qualities. Regeneration allows them to heal lots of damage, and only certain types of damage can't be regenerated. Dual natured allows them to have access to assensing and astral combat without having to purchase a magic quality. Also, if a shifter becomes a phys ad they can astrally perceive w/o the need to purchase the astral perception power. Always perceiving in both forms of perception can make them aware of things other party members would miss b/c they aren't looking astrally at the time. (Like a spirit trailing the group, ect.)

Basically add the above to something that can range higher than human in some base stats and you could see where some people are coming from. It's not about raw stats as much as the total package of powers.

Does that help?
Draco18s
Regeneration isn't all that good actually. You make the check once a combat round not ever pass.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 13 2009, 03:36 PM) *
Regeneration isn't all that good actually. You make the check once a combat round not ever pass.

True, regeneration does little to nothing in your first fight. But five minutes later when you're in your second or third fight and the team is accumulating damage while you're still 100%, it makes a bigger difference.

But this is going to come down to play style. For a lot of groups, if you're on your second or third fight you've failed the run long ago. For other groups, that's just getting warmed up.
LostProxy
Ya that helps I kind of see where your coming from about how strong they can be. Does anyone have any house rules to even these out because I'm going to run a game soon, first time GMing, and two of my players are using shifters with a linked back story. One is a bear and the other is a Leopard. The worse part is like you said the bear is a physad and the leopard is a mystic adept combat mage/sniper adept. Ya...I can see this going well all ready. I dont want to say no just because it would make things easier on me though.

I was thinking of the term Geek the Mage could also be extended to Geek the intelligent animals who are shooting/eating us. Also I was looking at the optional rule which allows you to change the metatype and I was wondering how much abuse could come form implementing this rule. At first I was thinking of using it and giving them two options. You could pay for it and gain the stat changes or not pay for it and just get a cosmetic change. What are your opinions on that?

Another thing is what about other animals like the Ox or Boar. Could you use some of the given stats and change the name or would you make a few changes?

EDIT: I'm using a house rule to make their animalistic nature a bit more obvious. Nothing like OMG. But something like someone with the right no how or who has been watching enough discovery channel would figure it out.
Draco18s
QUOTE (LostProxy @ Apr 13 2009, 04:46 PM) *
EDIT: I'm using a house rule to make their animalistic nature a bit more obvious. Nothing like OMG. But something like someone with the right no how or who has been watching enough discovery channel would figure it out.


Like tail and ears (fox). Hawk Eyes didn't seem to be all that much of a physical feature to me.
LostProxy
More like feathers and vestigal wings that turn into working ones. My SR world is a bit more instructed due to required courses so your children arent blindsided by the super natural.

EDIT: The main thing is though how do I deal with some characters that will be this tough. Specifically the Bear Physad who I'm beginning to think may be a bit more of a problem then expected.
Adonidus
I'm not too up on Shifters but maybe if he can only use his adept powers when he's in man-form, or only let some of them used in bear form. Another one could be that they'd only Astrally Precieve when they're in animal form, so they have to choose which set of powers to use. Regeneration should be easy though, just ramp up the number of encounters they'll be getting.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Adonidus @ Apr 13 2009, 06:22 PM) *
I'm not too up on Shifters but maybe if he can only use his adept powers when he's in man-form, or only let some of them used in bear form. Another one could be that they'd only Astrally Precieve when they're in animal form, so they have to choose which set of powers to use. Regeneration should be easy though, just ramp up the number of encounters they'll be getting.


To be perfectly honest, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Mechanics wise: sure (heck, Drakes are only dual natured in drake form, but shapeshifters are specifically dual natured all the time), but not conceptually.
KitsuneKaze
Just a point, being dual natured all the time is actually a rather big penalty in the shadowrunning line of work.
Draco18s
QUOTE (KitsuneKaze @ Apr 13 2009, 10:46 PM) *
Just a point, being dual natured all the time is actually a rather big penalty in the shadowrunning line of work.


Yes it is. No one can help you fight off all those astral things beating the shit out of you.

But at least you can fight back.
toturi
Being Dual Natured can be good and bad. Sometimes both at the same time.

How good it can be depends on build. How bad it can be depends on environment. If every building and vehicle is warded and clouds of FAB floating around everywhere, it is very damned bad.

I had an NPC concept that I have not had the opportunity to introduce into my campaign. A Adept/Mystic Adept Eagle shifter with all the Perception/Astral Perception enhancements. "Ambush? I spotted them 2 miles away!"
Windling
Best thing to do is read up on all their abilities and limitations. As a GM, you need to understand what they're capable of just as much or better than they do. Shifters have allergies and attract a lot of attention to ghouls and others who astrally percieve.

Create what you think could / would be a challenge and then let it run it's course. Once you see how they play their characters you'll get a better feel for what kinds of challenges to use.
Glyph
A bear adept will be hobbled by that horribly low Agility (4, if you hard-max it), a bear form that can't wear body armor unless it is custom-made, and no 'ware. Believe me, an ork or troll adept with some bioware is much more effective most of the time.

Also, regeneration is a big plus, but keep in mind that certain types of damage don't regenerate. And dual-natured is very much a hindrance, especially for an adept - you trip wards automatically, projecting mages can float 20 feet above you lobbing manabolts at you, and until you get masking, anyone capable of astral perception can tell your true nature.

Like any other character type, shapeshifters can be useful if you play to their strengths, but they are not an instant "I win" button. If you remain aware of their obvious weaknesses and remember to occasionally have those weaknesses come up, you should be fine.
GreyBrother
One Question you have to answer for your group is, if you count Drain as magical damage which can't be regenerated. My GM is generous enough to let me regenerate Drain damage (Yes, he is aware of the pwnage) which makes my magic 2 shifter kinda... well i think you can think the appropriate adjective up yourself.
But i don't recommend it for every group, for example those two shifters described in this thread should feel the wrath of drain (the Mystic Adept at least and the Adept when he Adrenaline boosts his stats).

All in all: Regeneration is a reason why many SR4 Shifters will be magically active. Heck, Magic + Constitution every round is pretty sweet and if your opponent doesn't know what he is dealing with can be quite surprising if the bloody cut spontaneously closes. But Silver is a big "Oh Snap!" for a Shifter, even if he Alleviates his Allergy by Magic, since the weakness isn't alleviated (and i know of no way to negate the weakness). For extra Fun: Take another Allergy appropriate for the shiftertype (iE a European Wolfshifter with Allergy (Wolfbane)) or instead. I recommend the former over the latter.

Dual Nature is a great boon and a curse. You perceive everything astrally too, you can get basic emotions of people just by "looking" at them (my shifter smells/feels astral impressions) and it's no problem for you to perceive both worlds. Another plus is, that you can switch your foci on all the time. No one can hurt them without you knowing. Last but not least: Aura recognition is very handy if your opponents are in disguise, wheter masks or adept powers. And that ends the mertis. Spirits with an Elemental Attack are your bane if you can't project. They fly around and shoot you and you can't do jack back. Same goes for projecting magicians. Endure and break LOS.

If your animal form CAN fly, you can fight Projectors and Spirits, but if you are caught in your human form you waste one or two complex actions stripping and shifting. I recommend special clothing like a one-piece-suit, even if you look like a pimp or womanizer (if you are male) in it. My GM demands an Edge test if i want so strip and do something simple meanwhile, like running. An agility test should do it too, or agility + intuition.

Enhanced Senses are nifty. Per RAW you can use those in different ways, and even in your human form. You can hear, smell, whatever and those apes around you can't even throw one of their dice. Great for detecting ambushes.

Shifting from one form to another is nice and the "schtick" you have. You can hide among humans, eat stuff they throw away or hunt vermin (this counts more for wolf shifters and other small predators). If you are a pack animal, your merit is doubled in that you can actually do some diplomacy for your family - IF you are able to talk "human" and actually are interested in posing as one for a longer time.
It is actually good to learn the local human language for nice information tidbits, food sources, warning labels and so on. And hey, no one would mention that "big dog" (if you do look like one) who searches around in the garbage and almost no one pays attention to a motionless bird.
You are followed? SaS. Strip and Shift, hide your clothes somewhere or buy cheap ones in the first place. Humans play into your paws/claws, since there are some cloth vending machines which are cheap. If you have money, that is. Then hide if you are in an appropriate enviroment. A bear or a tiger may have troubles hiding in the cities, but in the wilderness, that's less of an issue, especially if there are some caves nearby.

Wow, that went longer than i thought. Maybe i should write a "Shifters Guide to the Cities" or something...
treehugger
I've always considered that range is not an issue in the astral world : what you can percieve, you can touch. An astral form "floating" above you 100 meters high is just as close as the guy hugging you : you can see it, you can hit it. (Astral plane does not abide to physical rules). When you see the threat posed by the shifters in Yakut, if they could be sniped like you guys are mentioning, they wouldnt be a threat anymore.
The big problem for the shifter are the wards, and detection : anyone astrally percieving you will notice that you're not human. Remember most nation does not consider a shapeshifter as a citizen : they're dangerous creatures that must be shot on sight.
So, until the shifter is able to initiate and take the Masking metamagic, survival will be a pain.
GreyBrother
It's okay to handle the astral that way, but the RAW reality is that the astral space has distance and ranged attacks are sadly an issue. The shifters of Yakut have some magicians and spirits of their own (remember, they are just the state police), probably strong area knowledge and know how and where to hide better than some foreign merc with a long range gun.
darthmord
QUOTE (treehugger @ Apr 14 2009, 08:11 AM) *
I've always considered that range is not an issue in the astral world : what you can percieve, you can touch. An astral form "floating" above you 100 meters high is just as close as the guy hugging you : you can see it, you can hit it. (Astral plane does not abide to physical rules). When you see the threat posed by the shifters in Yakut, if they could be sniped like you guys are mentioning, they wouldnt be a threat anymore.
The big problem for the shifter are the wards, and detection : anyone astrally percieving you will notice that you're not human. Remember most nation does not consider a shapeshifter as a citizen : they're dangerous creatures that must be shot on sight.
So, until the shifter is able to initiate and take the Masking metamagic, survival will be a pain.


Distance is a factor as you can certainly have an astrally projecting person attacking a dual-natured person. Dual Natured beings are required to respect Physical Realm movement requirements (can't go through walls, that sort of stuff).
crazyconscript
We have a fox shapeshifter in our game. I built the character for one of my players and so far she has not broken the game that much. She is a stealth/close combat phys adept with magic 5, and she is pretty sick in combat (thanks to being on fire and having that luverly S/2+2 natural weapon in fox form). Most of the time she ends up being on a run in fox form, and spends almost all of her time like that, frequently forgetting that she is naked when she shifts to human (both player+character, which creates some interesting social interactions by the way...). She has really played up the "i am a FOX in HUMAN form, not a human in fox form!!!" part which is crucial to being a shapeshifter. It took about 3 games for the other players to convince her that she should carry a commlink (on a collar as a fox).
The main shtick she has so far shown over any other phys adept is her regeneration power. Yes, its only every combat turn rather than IP, but that is still some pretty sick healing power! I have seen her take 7-8P in one round, and then regenerate half of it at the end while her opponents are minced meat. It really is what makes her superior to any other close combat specialist as far as i have seen.
Being dual natured hasnt been too much of a problem with her, but probably more of an disadvantage than advantage. The fact that astral wards keep getting in the way, and spirits keep paying attention to her keeps her on her toes. Plus she cant regenerate spirit-inflicted damage vegm.gif
She also makes good use of the fact that a fox is smaller and harder to notice than a human, and is our resident stealth-fox. She doesnt likes to crawl through air vents any more though, after that nasty incident with the devil rat nest. She also uses the fact that she is a fox to her advantage in social situations; since she has no social skills she just walks around in fox form and people assume she is a pet spin.gif . At least in areas where she isnt seen as food....

In summary: the player does take advantage of the fact that she is a shapeshifter, but doesnt try to exploit it beyond what a character in that situation would probably do. She really keeps the character's actions in character, and is aware of her inherent limitations
Caadium
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Apr 14 2009, 04:26 AM) *
It's okay to handle the astral that way, but the RAW reality is that the astral space has distance and ranged attacks are sadly an issue. The shifters of Yakut have some magicians and spirits of their own (remember, they are just the state police), probably strong area knowledge and know how and where to hide better than some foreign merc with a long range gun.


This thread reminds me of a thoughtI had a while ago and chose to ignore since it wasn't very important. How would dual-natured work with flying creatures. (Hawk shifter, or Drake are perfect examples and even relate to the OP).

Mages that are astrally perceiving move faster, but a hawk shifter would at least have some ability to get after those pesky flying tormentors. That being said, wouldn't it make sense for a character (PC/NPC/Other) like this to look at Mystic Adept over a true spell-slinger? Going this route put most magic points into actual magic and use power points to give slight augmentations. As you initiate you can take a Power Point instead of a metamagic and buy other metamagics as needed if using those optional rules. All told, being able to fly as a dual natured being, how much do you think you'd be missing out on by not being able to astrally project?

I hope that made some sense.
GreyBrother
You have to fly for real and have to watch physics. That's the bummer.
LostProxy
Thanks for the help and some of this stuff has given me ideas to deal with these characters. The danger with them is their team work. Their very good at coordinating their attacks. We had a test game yesterday with these two, our 4 armed minotaur weapon master, and our wakyambi face/smuggler/semi rigger. Not everyone was there but this gave me a chance to explain to the players how their abilities worked. The mission went well but this was where I realized how well their abilities mixed.

The wm heavy weapons and the smugglers drones were a great assault and cover fire team with the wm's demo skills making new doors where there were none and giving them an advantage by changing the battlefield to their liking. While they took care of more mundange threats and the occasional spirt with stick n shocks the bear and jaguar were basically making the lives of the guards a nightmare. The bear was quite frankly a tank who acted as a living shield for the jaguar who would drop people with a spell and when they were out of LOS or he couldnt risk the drain would drop them with nades or his enforcer rifle. He would also sustain an armor spell on the bear with a foci that made a strong tank even tougher. The best part of my day was when I heard the bear player talking to the minotaur about making him some smart armor that could change with his body like lighter armor but have heavier plates for added protection. Basically the armor would be a series of plates that while he is human cover the bulk of his body but when he transform the break apart to cover a wider area, think plate tectonics, but when he turns back they come right back together like a puzzle. Pretty smart design I thought and the technology is certainly there so idk about doing a dick move and just saying no.

After this test fight I've basically come to the conclusion that in battle I need stronger magical opposition that mainly focuses on them because their obvious threats and outside of battle have trouble caused by spirits and I even have an idea for a prime runner whos a parahunter who has been hired by a local collector who found out about these shifters from some local free spirits to get their hides for a special ritual. Only one problem.

I could use some help building a 500bp parahunter. Dont know where to start besides tracking and maybe bows for flavor purposes.
raggedhalo
I think by the time your PCs include two shapeshifters, a four-armed minotaur and a wakyambi, you might find that you have bigger problems than designing a 500BP parahunter. I mean, sure, if you're all having fun then your game sounds cool but I guess I worry when GMs feel that they can't say no to players for the sake of the game. The Bear player knew what he was getting into when he decided to play that character and is trying to circumvent one of the few balancing points of the shapeshifter.

You've said you're worried about saying no twice now; once "to make your life easier" and once because it would have been a "dick move." I disagree entirely -- you can say no to these things because I suspect you game will very quickly degenerate into something you won't enjoy running. You need to retain some control over the gameworld otherwise you won't have fun.
CanRay
Yeah, OK, your group may have a Shapechanger in it.

Corporations have been using Shapechangers as Security Guards for years now. Wolf Packs particularily.

Some High-Protection Instilations even have Noseprint Scanners for "Doggie Doors" to allow them in and out while "Undercover".

Makes you think twice about trying to feed those poisoned Soysteaks to the Dogs running the pens, eh?
GreyBrother
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