Ok, tried the search, said that "3rd vs 4th" was not a valid search function. Looked through the first 5 pages to see if I could find something and didnt really get any good answers, so figured I would post.

Anyone have links to "3rd ed vs 4th ed" threads?

I started with 1st in the mid-90's, playing during our lunch break in middle school. Went to 2nd briefly, then to 3rd. I have generally avoided 4th since it came out, due to some changes I (personally) do not care for... but there is interest in my local game store to try a game of it and I figured I might as well give it a go.

Now I am reading here that there is a new version coming out (4.5?) that changes things again? All we have available is the regular 4th ed rulebook and sourcebooks at the store.


Just looking for some info on what to expect. I got a bit of the basics (Matrix is wireless, Otaku are in the core rules, WoD like system for game mechanics, etc) but was just looking for an overall guide to the differences since I was unable to find one. Links would be great, or an idea of where I should look to find that info.

Thanks in advance!

My personal recommendation is to not look up comparisons. Just read the rules sections in SR4A, get the PDF from BattleCorps(spelling?)

SR4A(not 4.5) is essentially errata and clarification, with some rules changes. Its not a new edition, at least not to its producers.

Your what to expect list looks accurate enough for me. Most of the changes in how the game was written occurred 1997 ish, so you may already have most of the feel down. But again, I highly recommend reading the rules sections in SR4A with a fresh mind. Otherwise you are more likely to induce version creep.

Thanks for the info. It was more about the mechanics. Stuff that was a given in previous editions, and how true it is in the newer edition.. stuff you only really pick up while playing.

Stuff like how if you want to be at all effective in combat, you need boosted reflexes (somehow).. be it Cyber, Magic, Adept, whatever. Or that you can introduce a little cyber to an awakened character without hosing them, etc.

The opinions on SR4A seem to be mixed. Since some of our guys already have the un-updated version (and seems like alot of folks seem to be against alot of the updates?), should we go with that? I am liking the idea of being able to pick up all of the sourcebooks in one place...

From my POV, so much changed I was held back thinking about any of my older precepts. Then again, I didn't like 3RD especially well and came in from 2nd.

For all of the middle section, do searches. If you were in my area, the standard answer for "How to be effective in Combat?" is "Start with as much AGILITY as you can pump into your Sammy". If its a mage, the answer is "Stunball overcast to max". That's enough chit chat from me, there are better threads on these.

I won't touch the SR4A debates here, there are plenty of other threads. And I don't want to touch the debate in those threads either. If anyone jumps on it here, it will just be rehash.


BlueMax
/mmmm hash

Given that the rule that caused such a ruckus is now optional I doubt it'll come up.

The main difference between 3rd and 4th edition mechanics wise is dice pools. No more do you roll exploding 6s until you reach a Target Number. Now its more like World of Darkness (and other d10 systems): 5s and 6s are "successes" and you count how many of those you have.

Karma is now Edge (which does give you exploding 6s) and whatever experience was before is now Karma.

Another big change is that unlike previous editions, you now roll your attribute with your skill instead of just rolling skills alone. This means that instead of just rolling something like computers, you now roll computers + Logic. The increased dicepools this gives you is somewhat offset by the fact that you longer have the discretionary dice pools (Hacking, Combat, etc).

Along these same lines, there have been a few changes to attributes. Quickness was broken apart into Agility and Reaction. Reaction is now a normal attribute, and not a derived stat. Similarly, Intelligence was broken into Intuition and Logic.

To add to what has already been said about 5 always being the target number, modifiers now affect dice pool. Smartlink, for example, no longer lowers the target number from 5 to 3, but instead adds 2 dice to the roll.

Finally, one that has more subtle changes than I think most people realize, is that magic no longer starts at its maximum (which is your essence score). Part of building the character is buying up your magic attribute. This leads to characters that have magic lower than their essence at times, which is something that can change how you look at NPCs or magic in the world when you are used to magic always being equal to essence (as I was for soooo many years).

I'm someone that didn't pick up SR4 books for a LONG time. I didn't play enough to warrant moving away from what I already had and enjoyed (like you I started in 1st and have worked my way up). I won't get into the pros and cons of SR4A, but I do agree with the thinking that its a large errata type change as opposed to a system overhaul (4.5 style). That being said, the changes are out and eventually I expect them to publish errata for the books that already exist. However, all future releases will be based around SR4A since it is the official errata and Rules as Written (RAW). If you and your group haven't bought the books yet keep this in mind as you decide whether to buy for whats out there (and maybe find good deals on the SR4 main books), or to buy for what is coming out.

Looks like our GM has settled on 4th, so I will be giving it a try for sure.

Once I get a copy and read over it I will be sure to be on here posting all sorts of questions. Thanks for the quick response!

Biggest tings to be careful of are when you are dealing with vehicles..many of the numbers are similar and I know I found myself slipping up multiple times by looking at something an old way, and it turned out that, while close, was still different..(Like the Acceleration numbers...I was still thinking of them as "Acceleration/Deceleration" instead of "Slow acceleration/All out acceleration."

4th ed rule system is MUCH better than 3rd (or previous ones) when it comes to combat and magic and hacking (even if i hate the wireless matrix very much). Vehicules rules suck (with enought luck and edge, you can shoot a banshee with your pred 4), but all in all is much better.
I dont like the background on the other end ...

Read SR4 p. 52 Sidebar. Gives the quick list of basic mechanical differences.

One reason for a lack of 3 v 4 threads is that the topic was specifically discouraged since there are a lot of flame threads polluting the boards.

Differences in play are a matter of your groups style, but there are some changes outside of direct mechanics, such as the ubiquity of the Matrix and Augmented and Virtual Reality, so it's worth reading up on the introductory section on AR, and the examples, such as SR4 p. 209 sidebar.

And the major change in the Magic area is the Universal Magic, so no more sharp divide between Shamanic and Hermetic types, no Spirit Domains. Though you can easily duplicate the 3rd edition motifs.

Also suggested reading is Runners Companion information on leaving a data trail. Make sure you pick up a few disposable comms and a few fake SINs.

Having recently returned to SR myself, one of the changes that stood out to me was that the spellcasting system has been reworked to balance it better with other parts of the game. One change that stood out was the stipulation that you *cannot* get more Hits on a Spellcasting Test than the Force of the spell being cast. If my memory serves, in previous editions you could get away with casting low-Force spells for large effect by just throwing a large Sorcery Pool at the test. This change, along with the variable Magic Attribute and several others, seem to have balanced magic with the other parts of the game better than in previous editions. Is this the experience of those of you who have been playing with 4th ed. for a while?

Yes, the Magic sub-system in general just makes more sense now. Gone is the effect that each new Tradition was like a whole new sub-system of Magic. Also gone are the spells where the Spellcasting test appeared to serve no function (Physical Barrier) or where Force had very little function (Increase Reflexes I, II, and III). For every spell, both the Force and the Spellcasting test now has meaning.

That's good to hear. I always liked the *idea* of the magic system in Shadowrun, but felt the implementation often made for munchkin madness. Granted, I'm a good deal older and perhaps a bit wiser than when I first ran the game in '89, but having a magic system less prone to abuse is a generally a good thing.

That mechanic was in 3rd ed as well. I forget where it was noted, though.

Wow, I must have totally missed that. Then again, when 3rd edition came out, 2nd was still pretty fresh in my mind and I probably skimmed the BBB more than I should have. Coming back to the game after ten years has necessitated a more thorough read of the corebook. For the best, really.

I'ma hafta look that up, because I sure as heck don't remember that either.

And in SR4, you just throw edge on the roll, exploding sixes and the such, and can get more successes, or did that get changed along the way somewhere?

Combat? Maybe. I prefer SR3 myself, but it's a matter of taste.

Magic? Yes, improved.

Hacking? Very much improved. SR4 gets rid of the stay at home overwatch characters who don't get to do anything and integrates hacking so you don't have characters who do nothing during combat and then make everyone else wait while they hack. It's a good change.

The largest general change is the fact that systems are supposed to be more parallel and less quirkily individual. Hermetic mages and shamans don't operate very differently anymore, they just get different flavor. Cyberware and bioware don't have different stats they effect, they act very much as the same thing by different names. You have one target number all the time. This is almost certainly good for balance, but it takes a little bit of the ridiculous wonky rules flavor out.

Fluff-wise, the major change is the switch from a Matrix that runs on jackpoints and wires to a Matrix that's everywhere wirelessly. There's also a lot more use of "skins" on realitiy, both for ease of use and for personal taste. It's a nice touch that mostly stays out of the crunch.

Thanks for the info.

I took a look at the rules a bit yesterday and noticed that totems seem to be gone? Did they put them into the magic sourcebook, or is that all gone?

Our game looks to be shaping up to be an "Indiana Jones" style globe-traveling adventure party. Working on a character concept using my knowledge of 3rd ed while not actually having a 4th ed rulebook in front of me (still waiting for it to show up). Went looking for the rules on being a shaman and noticed that.

I have offered, more or less, to fill in the gap with party needs. So, I might go with the Troll Gator Shaman I originally thought up, or might end up being the Decker (I refuse.. REFUSE to call them Hackers.. ).

Totems are now called Mentor Spirits. As with previous editions there are a number in the main book, and more in the magic book. To have a mentor spirit it's a positive quality you have to buy. This means that not all shamans have one, and now hermetics can have one. Just check the index at the end of the book for "Mentor Spirits" to find the page. I'm not at home so I can't just give it to you.