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Mx
If you get your character both improved physical attribute adept power and attribute augmenting ware at chargen, which is applied first.
Writer
The Adept power Improved Physical Attribute still falls under the augmented maximum rule of 1.5 your natural maximum. The second paragraph under Improved Physical Attribute on pg 187 of the core book states, "This power allows you to exceed your natural attribute maximum up to the augmented maximum, but each point over the maximum costs double (2 Power points per level)." Keep in mind, this does not increase your natural maximum, it just allows you to augment past your maximum. It doesn't matter which you apply first, magic or cyberware/bioware augmentation, your maximum is still 1.5 your natural maximum.
Mx
QUOTE (Writer @ Apr 16 2009, 12:03 PM) *
The Adept power Improved Physical Attribute still falls under the augmented maximum rule of 1.5 your natural maximum. The second paragraph under Improved Physical Attribute on pg 187 of the core book states, "This power allows you to exceed your natural attribute maximum up to the augmented maximum, but each point over the maximum costs double (2 Power points per level)." Keep in mind, this does not increase your natural maximum, it just allows you to augment past your maximum. It doesn't matter which you apply first, magic or cyberware/bioware augmentation, your maximum is still 1.5 your natural maximum.

But the order of applying can greatly affect the amount of powerpoints used.
Eimi
Also on this note, could someone fill me in on how magic + lost essence works at chargen? If a character had lost several essence points before they awakened, would they have to pay 'over' their maximum magic rating in order to achieve it?

Ie: If they had an essence of 2, would they need to spend 25 BP to get a magic of 2 (1 being 'free' with an awakened quality, 25 for the maximum attribute rating with lowered essence), or would they need to spend 65 (paying for magic 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, even though 4 of the 6 points are 'lost' to them)?
gtjormungand
QUOTE (Eimi @ Apr 16 2009, 07:54 AM) *
they need to spend 65 (paying for magic 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, even though 4 of the 6 points are 'lost' to them)?


This is how I understand it. It would be very abusive otherwise.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Eimi @ Apr 16 2009, 07:54 AM) *
Also on this note, could someone fill me in on how magic + lost essence works at chargen? If a character had lost several essence points before they awakened, would they have to pay 'over' their maximum magic rating in order to achieve it?

Ie: If they had an essence of 2, would they need to spend 25 BP to get a magic of 2 (1 being 'free' with an awakened quality, 25 for the maximum attribute rating with lowered essence), or would they need to spend 65 (paying for magic 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, even though 4 of the 6 points are 'lost' to them)?


Two ways to do this.

With Latent Awakening (Street Magic), you spend your 5 BP and when you awaken (GM's discretion) you start with a Magic of 1. Note that if your Essence is less than 1, you cannot awaken.

The other way to do it is to buy your magic up at character creation. Say you buy a Magic of 5. That costs 40 BP plus the cost of Magician, Mystic Adept, or Adept. When you install implants, your current and maximum magic is reduced. So, if your Magic 5 character had lost 2 essence to implants, your current Magic would drop to 3 and your maximum would drop to 4.

Basically, this means that if you want to start as an augmented magician, you're going to be paying through the nose for the privilege.

Hope this helps.

-paws

Eimi
I'd thought as much, since it could be pretty abusive otherwise. Still, this place makes inquiring with others almost too tantalizingly easy.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Eimi @ Apr 16 2009, 10:41 AM) *
[...]this place makes inquiring with others almost too tantalizingly easy.


Its kind of addicting.

-paws
Mx
Litlle bump, becouse i would really wanna hear opinnions on this.
Muspellsheimr
It does not matter which is applied first, because the power is adjusting your 'natural' attribute value, while the 'ware is adjusting your augmented attribute value.


If you want 2 Essence worth of augmentation & 3 Magic, you are paying for a Magic of 5. Essence loss lowers current and maximum Magic, & does not distinguish between character generation & post-generation play.
Writer
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 16 2009, 02:25 AM) *
If you get your character both improved physical attribute adept power and attribute augmenting ware at chargen, which is applied first.


Ah, I think I see what you are asking. Let's start with a human with strength 5. I want to add 1 point of Improved Physical Attribute and 1 point of Muscle Augmentation. You want to know if the Muscle Augmentation is added first, does the Adept power cost 2 Magic, instead of 1, correct?

QUOTE (SR4, pg 187, under Improved Physical Attribute)
If you later want to increase the attribute using Karma (see p. 264), the cost is based on the total attribute, including the magical improvements.


Attribute increases from the Adept power cost Magic, which costs BP and/or Karma, depending on when the increase occurs. While this is considered an Augmentation for maximum ratings, it is considered natural for continuing development. A character with a strength of 6 with 8 levels of Improved Physical Attribute still has a natural limitation of 6, and an augmented level of 8. To raise the attribute to the augmented maximum, the attribute is considered 8 for karma calculations.

QUOTE (SR4, pg 264, under Improving Attributes)
Raising a natural attribute may raise the augmented attribute value, up to the augmented attribute maximum (natural maximum x 1.5).


If you used Muscle Augmentation to raise the attribute from 8 to 9, it would not cost any karma, but you still have reached the maximum human strength rating of 9.

If you have a character with a strength of 5 and want to add 1 point of Improved Physical Attribute and 1 point of Muscle Augmentation, the Adept power only costs 1 Magic point, as the natural limit has not been exceeded. Even if the Muscle Augmentation is "applied" first, the cost of Improved Physical Attribute is based on the natural rating, not the augmented rating.

Athough, I have one quick question: Doe the augmented limit apply only to racial max or to current max? Could my character with strength 2 get a level +2 increase, or only a +1 (1.5 x 2 current rating)?
Ryu
The augmented maximum for attributes is 1.5 times the natural maximum. You can get there by any combination of natural attribute and augmentation.

Compare: The augmented maximum for skills is 1.5 times the natural skill.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
The augmented maximum for attributes is 1.5 times the natural maximum. You can get there by any combination of natural attribute and augmentation.

Compare: The augmented maximum for skills is 1.5 times the natural skill.

Somehow this breaks down in comparison...

Oh yeah, now I remember. For some reason, Attribute augments are limited to 1.5 x natural maximum while skills are limited to 1.5 x natural skill (not maximum). By RAW, you can have a human with Reaction of 3 (9), but not Dodge 2 (4).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Apr 27 2009, 05:12 PM) *
Somehow this breaks down in comparison...

Oh yeah, now I remember. For some reason, Attribute augments are limited to 1.5 x natural maximum while skills are limited to 1.5 x natural skill (not maximum). By RAW, you can have a human with Reaction of 3 (9), but not Dodge 2 (4).



How I always read it...
Shinobi Killfist
I'd apply improved physical attribute first. The double cost past natural maximum is just a retarded rule in the first place minimize it when you can.
Mx
QUOTE (Writer @ Apr 28 2009, 01:38 AM) *
Ah, I think I see what you are asking. Let's start with a human with strength 5. I want to add 1 point of Improved Physical Attribute and 1 point of Muscle Augmentation. You want to know if the Muscle Augmentation is added first, does the Adept power cost 2 Magic, instead of 1, correct?



Attribute increases from the Adept power cost Magic, which costs BP and/or Karma, depending on when the increase occurs. While this is considered an Augmentation for maximum ratings, it is considered natural for continuing development. A character with a strength of 6 with 8 levels of Improved Physical Attribute still has a natural limitation of 6, and an augmented level of 8. To raise the attribute to the augmented maximum, the attribute is considered 8 for karma calculations.



If you used Muscle Augmentation to raise the attribute from 8 to 9, it would not cost any karma, but you still have reached the maximum human strength rating of 9.

If you have a character with a strength of 5 and want to add 1 point of Improved Physical Attribute and 1 point of Muscle Augmentation, the Adept power only costs 1 Magic point, as the natural limit has not been exceeded. Even if the Muscle Augmentation is "applied" first, the cost of Improved Physical Attribute is based on the natural rating, not the augmented rating.

Athough, I have one quick question: Doe the augmented limit apply only to racial max or to current max? Could my character with strength 2 get a level +2 increase, or only a +1 (1.5 x 2 current rating)?

Thanks, thats exactly what i was looking for.
Writer
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 28 2009, 01:05 AM) *
Thanks, thats exactly what i was looking for.


I have a degree in Philosophy (which explains why I am working for near minimum wage smile.gif ). I have learned that sometimes it isn't easy to ask the right questions, because people will read the question differently. Looking back, I can see exactly what you meant, but it took me a while to understand. Fortunately, I find great amusement when I figure out I have been answering the wrong question.

QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Apr 27 2009, 06:12 PM) *
Somehow this breaks down in comparison...

Oh yeah, now I remember. For some reason, Attribute augments are limited to 1.5 x natural maximum while skills are limited to 1.5 x natural skill (not maximum). By RAW, you can have a human with Reaction of 3 (9), but not Dodge 2 (4).


I think this is where I was confused, but this does make sense to me, now. If your skill is low, you really won't know how to integrate the new knowledge effectively. Someone with a Medicine skill rating of 1 won't really know how to apply the added information of a +2 bonus. To get the knowledge integrated fully, you could use Skillwires, but this doesn't integrate with your own skills. Integrating knowledge much harder than integrating new muscles. I believe that even in 2070 psychology will still not see the scientific precision that other sciences enjoy. Otherwise, reprogramming the brain would be much easier, and much scarier.
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