Greetings all and sundry. I've just decided to run my first Shadowrun game in ten years, having previously run several SR games from '89 to '99. I'm glad that resources like Dumpshock are still thriving and I've enjoyed my couple days of introductory lurking.

Over the years of running Shadowrun and then OWOD Vampire games I gradually began to despise any form of mind-reading. I've been able to handle mind-reading without it ruining games, but I've felt that sort of an ability to be a net minus on the fun of resolving plots in RPGs. Having just completed my first read-through of 4th edition SR I notice that spells like Mind Probe and Control Thoughts are still in the spell list. Aside from noting on p. 172 BBB that mental manipulation spells are illegal in many jurisdictions, there isn't much support for restricting access. The way I see it, I have a couple of options to deal with this in my upcoming SR game.

I could just inform my players that I prefer not to have these spells in the game and effectively remove them from play. This approach seems to remove the players' freedom of choice, which is part of what I dislike about the spells in question in the first place.

A slightly less draconian approach would just be to emphasize the illegality of the spells in question via adjusted Availability numbers and the like. However, elevating the legal consequences to a level similar to that of violent crimes seems a bit laughable when the characters in question are shadowrunners, who "..are Horrible People that Shoot People Right in the Face for Money." (Thank you, Mr. Sturgis.)

A more attractive approach, in my opinion, is to take a page from the Harry Dresden books (and other sources, I'm sure) and declare that mind-altering and controlling magics are inherently corrupting to the practitioner. Not in an Evil™ way that supposes an ultimate moral authority, but more in a way analogous to drug addiction. Users of this sort of magic can easily grow accustomed to manipulating the thoughts and emotions of others to get their way. With a bit of tweaking the BBB addiction rules could be used to model this effect. I was also considering having the more advanced forms of this addiction be visible in the practitioner's aura, so that a moderately successful Assensing Roll could reveal a magician with a taste for these sorts of spells.

The reason I like this last approach is that it creates rather than diminishes roleplaying options. One of the aspects of Shadowrun that I've always enjoyed is that while the characters are most often criminals of one sort or another, it is still up to the individuals to decide on their own personal code of ethics. The interplay of these ethical codes can make for some interesting roleplaying when jobs get offered that cross the line for some members of the group, but not others. By assigning additional consequences to the mind-controlling/reading spells, I hope to discourage their use by the PCs, but also to make for more interesting gameplay in the case that a player chooses to go that route anyway.

Anyway, it may seem like I've already made up my mind on this issue, but the reason I'm posting this is so that all the keen minds here can poke holes in my logic and give me some alternate viewpoints. Thanks in advance for those viewpoints.

What specifically is your beef with those spells, what kind of problems are you fore seeing them causing.
Knowing specifics like that would help in answering to you question.

There are enough other methods to get the information a mind reader want's to get (which are available to mundanes too!) who should also be restricted if you despite the fact that you have to take them into the equation if you want your players to be clueless.

The easiest way is: just let not everybody know everything. people are like cattle. especially those who are fooled to believe they are wolves.

YMMV obviously, but I've found that in practice these sorts of spells, especially the mind-reading ones, lead to the most inelegant and lazy means of acquiring information in a RPG. In a game like SR, with its emphasis on Legwork, Contacts, and Matrix Search, it seems particularly lazy. Admittedly, this phenomenon is easier to control in some game systems than others. In SR, you just need to have LoS (perhaps while astrally projecting) to a given baddie for a few Complex Actions to pick their brain. Of course it's down to how well the player and I roll, but I think you see what I'm saying. There are a number of other ways to deal with this problem, including limiting the knowledge any given antagonist has in their head, but I've seen that run amok to the point of supposing superhuman information discipline on the part of a group of antagonists. Giving every peon the Willpower to resist is also unattractive. I do appreciate the rule that the subject of a Mind Probe knows that they're being probed, and that prevents the group from probing every single individual they ever have reason to suspect, as happened in my Vampire game.

Hope that answered the question. I appreciate the feedback.

double post

Interestingly enough (on the topic of spell addiction) I designed a character who's concept was an addiction to Alter Memory (specifically he'd alter the memories of the other player characters at the table--it takes a special kind of GM to run properly* but I'd enjoy the chaos it'd cause).


*Player doesn't need to know in advance what the events of the plot are (beyond about 15 seconds in case there's anything important he wants to change and can't see coming--i.e. the Lone Star helicopter that's about to intercept the run-away vehicle--which takes a certain kind of player to not metagame, we're already meta-gaming by changing the meta-game) he just needs to give the GM some baseline rules, "First reoccurring NPC we fight should be a dragon." "The thing we're stealing at the time is a fruitcake." "If we get chased by a chopper that's the dragon too." "The receptionist is a troll who's name is Steak Nipples."

It worked. He honestly believes he never made that second post! ha! I am the mad mage-ors!

Add a threshold of willpower or 1/2 willpower. They should of had it in the first place.

Mind probe is limited in that the people who have the knowledge that you really need to know are typically not the ones that wind up in your clutches. Furthermore, the people you do wind up with might or might not actually know the truth - they could be passing on false information to you, because they believe it's true. Finally, if you have captured something, torture and/or psychotropic conditioning can have the same result, anyways. Mind probe is not a big "I win" button, at least if you remain aware of its limitations.

Personally, I feel it would curtail player choice less for the spells to simply be unavailable/non-existent. I guess that's because I am biased against things like addiction tests, composure tests, and social tests outside of a narrow range of circumstances (seeing if you can impress the bouncer or fit in at a ganger party, good. Rolling to see whether you convince another PC to sleep with you, bad). These things don't usually lead to better roleplaying, but to frustrated players whose own vision of how their characters would react is overruled by the allmighty dice. As soon as you introduce "corrupting" things, you open Pandora's box (what about the sammie who always shoots the civilians? Should he roll to keep from turning into a serial killer?), and come one step closer to having (ugh) alignments in Shadowrun.

I'm with Glyph.

I've found that you don't necessarily need 'superhuman information discipline' to balance things out - it's enough to plant a few pieces of false information every now and then. Players start to look for more reliable sources pretty quickly, after the first couple of times they look for the paydata in the wrong place or go after the wrong people.

I don't think it's too unbelievable for security grunts to sometimes have false information about the precise location of the thing they're protecting. You only need one paranoid security chief ;) And opposing runner teams might quite often have false information about their employer, depending of course on how you run things.

And don't forget that the human mind is not entirely perfect. as long as the victim of those mind reading spells has no eidetic memory any information you could get out it's mind can be fairly inacurate if the successes of the spell casting test is not exceeding the niveau of the information searched for. And even then you could drop important details just because the victim wasn't aware of them.

And if you still like to restrict them in some way: make them squish the victims mind. tampering with a mind can easily break it or turn it upside down (fluffwise!). So, if your groups mages are overstressing it just let them leave some babbling idiots in their wake.

Okay, so you've all brought up a number of other ways to limit the utility of the Mind Probe spell, for which I am grateful. Reading through them, my emotional response tells me that I still want there to be some additional consequence or set of consequences to using those spells that deprive a person of their free will and mess with their minds. The above idea about permanently damaging the victims of mind manipulation might fit the bill. It certainly means that the PCs won't be likely to use the spells on people they don't already intend bodily harm to. My group of players is unlikely to play any real pyschopaths, so instituting something like this will limit the use of mind manipulation spells more than even the addiction idea would.

That sounds like you've figured it out already, particularly by treating it as an addiction. Your players will limit their mental probing in a hurry when they see somebody addicted to it getting caught doing it and gacked on the street because of it. You could introduce an NPC that has that particular addiction as an example, or put something on the newsnet for them to see, etc.

On a similar note, I was thinking about introducing a small vigilante organization of magicians who make it their business to take the more egregious offenders off the streets.

Keep in mind that mind probe, or control thoughts, while they reveal what the targets know - not all targets will have all information available to them.

You can use the fact that mooks, and even their leader types, probably won't actually know very much. You can use that against your players, misdirecting them with information that the targets "know", but might not actually be accurate or true.

Or maybe they have a data filter, or cranial bomb installed.

Basically rather than restrict, or take away, find away around the problem.




That's kind of a hard sell in a game that focuses on self styled criminals who break the law simply by existing (SINless), some of whom kill people for money.

Is mind probing someone for information less humane than torturing them for hours on end to get it?

Would you rather your players cut people's toes off with a pair of wire clippers to get that information?

One of our former players didn't even need to do that.

Tent stake, hammer, and a blow torch.

Had the captive magician blubbering even before he got to work.

Stray made a few intimidating moves with the tent stake and the hammer (put it 3" into the concrete or something).

And then the guy committed suicide, setting off a cranial bomb (the weakest one) in his head with a tooth-capsule trigger.

Reminds me of a book I read long time ago. In it was this character who had to question people reqularly. He would order some bizarre equipment for it in from of the person, like: "I need bucket of apples, three rats and a.... let me see... medium brick."

He never actually did anything with those, because people would usually break before he had the stuff. There was always at least one item that wasnt readily available. Near the end someone finally asked what he was going to do with the stuff he replied:

"Heck if I know. But whatever you can do, they can always imagine something far worse."



Or you could just use ask nicely, if no answer use Alter Memory to make the person think that he has been tortured and healed. Rince and repeat.

In the last group I played with everyone agreed to ban the mental manipulation spells. Not the mind reading ones, but the mind control ones. They made it too easy to push the I Win button for whoever used them. And we decided that we didn't really want to deal with the sauce for the gander issue when the sammi shot all the other characters in the head before they even realized they were in a fight.

That from one of the book in Wheel of Time series, probaply third.

You do realize that they roll willpower almost constantly and that their successes stack up, right?

Agreed on this point. I'm not so worried about mind probing as part of interrogating a prisoner. What I was worried about was use of mind probing in place of legwork. Between the responses I've gotten and reminding myself that the SR mind probe notifies the victim they're being probed, I'm convinced I don't *need* to institute the restriction I proposed in the original post. The only question left is, does the idea have enough merit to institute anyway? Will it make the game more or less interesting?

Thanks for all the advice.

How do you know whose mind to probe? Do you probe everyone? Does the person who you probe know the right thing? What happens when the mind probe person has it wrong, doesn't understand, or has been lied to?

Legwork goes in stages and degrees. If the team doesn't know enough to know where to start, they need to do that, is Mind Probe worth using then? Is it worth mind probing people randomly till you learn enough to get to the target that really knows something? Mind probe is worth the risk when you are pretty sure you've got the right target. And the right target often may have some consequences that occur.

OTOH, if you've got Mind Probe, it is powerful against the normal run of things. no question, have fun with it.

That is all very nice, but it doesn't matter.

I have magic 5, spellcasting 5 and cast force 5. I get 3 successes (average) with control thoughts. Victim has will of 3 and gets one success. I've got him.
Every 5 turns my victim could spend a complex action to try to shake off the effects. But I'm running control thoughts, so I don't think I'll have him do that. Instead I'll have him shoot the mage in the back of the head with an HE mini-grenade on IP 1, which will get the other two teamates standing next to him, then on IP 2 I shoot the hacker in the face with an HE grenade, then on IP 3 I use control thoughts on the other sammy, because they killed my first target with automatic weapons fire. On IP 1 I drop an HE grenade at his feet, on IP 2 I put a short burst into the rigger and another into the guy next to him, on .....

THere are two things being discussed here: detection spells, and mental manipulations. Some suggestions other than outright ban or rule changes:

Detection spells:

For mind probe: Keep in mind (as others noted) that mind probe is not 100% reliable. The NPC may not have the infor, may be mis informed or may resist. GM should roll b/c on critical glitch PC will get incorrect information. Also a touch spell not ranged. recating makes it more difficult.

Other detection spells, the limits on those is typically range and thresholds (which is set by gm, or opposed by will power or OR). Also, as it can be counterspelled any nearby opposing mages will know it has been cast. As with mind probe gm should roll due to mis information from a glitch.

Force also limits the number of successes, so high force may be the norm to get much use out of these spells.

Mental Manipulations:

Again, counterspelling being possible means an opposing mage knows the spell was cast. Also the the total hits cannot exceed the force of the spell. Also the force determines the time interval between the resistance test , and net hits mean vs the limit on force means they should shake it off after force combat turns. The otheer thing to keep in mind is that drain on these is worse than a manabolt/manaball. Keep that in mind in terms of game balance. ZThe person also more than likely knows that they have been manipulated, whicch will raise the alarm.

If you have to ask, the mage knowing the spell was cast means the runs gone from quiet and bloodless to a mini corp war. Big YMMV, but in my games as a gm these are things I would keep in mind.

When my players abused control thoughts,I abused them with it just as much. I made sure they kept track of every simple/complex action, didn't let other group members instinctively know who was being controlled without some communication going, and didn't let them get away with the whole 'I control you,so pull the gernade pin and then drop it at the feet of you and your buddies,mr guard' without letting them have the stated roll to overcome. After one session of their own medicene,the entire group decided control thoughts was better as a threat or last ditch resort then the first tool you grab. I didnt tell them no, I didnt nerf the spell, I didn't do anything 'limiting' except make sure that every rule was followed and that what was good for the goose is good for the gander. Magic is an arms race, if you don't want to be nuked, don't open your bush war with an atomic bomb. Anybody using control(Anything) or slay(whatever) as a crutch pretty much deserves what they get because people are going to notice, and they are going to take offense to it.
Fears of what their professional rep would devolve into if they tried mind controlling johnsons at the meet, or telling every lone star cop that wrote them a ticket to go dance naked in the street kept them in check.

So as your FIRST complex action spell directing control thoughts you tell the person you're controlling "not to resist." Mm, got it.

As your second he shoots the mage.

Somehow I think they get to resist anyway, side effect of "holding the spell too long" kind of deal.

Most/many GMs also institute an additional check anytime the action/thought being given is somehow harmful to the person being controlled. It's way, way to cheesy to mind control someone and tell them to shoot themselves.

Personally, if it's detrimental to the person (shooting a friend, destroying one's own property) they get an immediate resist check (Will + CS), if it directly harms the person (shooting themselves, walking off a cliff) then they immediately get a double resist check (Will * 2 + CS * 2).

Then even your Willpower 3 targets end up breaking your hold over them if you direct them to inflict damage to themselves on a regular basis.

Fits right in with Alter Memory forcing an additional resist check anytime new evidence is presented to the target indicating that their memories are false (it's what keeps Alter Memories at Force 6 from lasting 36 months (!!!) on average for a willpower 3 target).

Perhaps you haven't read the actual rules recently:

"Mental Manipulations: For Mental Manipulation spells, the caster makes an Opposed Magic + Spellcasting Test against the target’s Willpower (+ Counterspelling, if available). If the caster scores more hits, she controls the target as noted in the spell description.

"Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer affects the target."

He gets the initial resisance roll automatically (and since it's will against magic + spellcasting he fails), the next possibility isn't for Force turns and requires the use of a complex action. If I control the targets actions, I don't think I want them to shake off the spell. So I don't let them spend that complex action.

Is it grossly overpowered? Unbalanced? It's magic in SR, of course it's grossly overpowered and unbalanced.

I don't write these crappy rules, I just have to play with them.

This was one case where everyone at the table looked at it and decided it was just too ugly to allow in our game.

They are powerful, But I would have to disagree... We give the target the opportunity to shake it off, which is clearly the intent of the rules... so for that attempt, the mage loses out on a complex action every Force Turns... not a big deal in most instances...

So, take a look at my suggested fixes:

1) The target gets the resists anyway.
2) The target gets EXTRA resists anytime the action is something s/he wouldn't normally do (injure him/herself or a loyal friend)

And if the intent of the rules is not enough (as stated in the BBB), then Draco18s suggestions are a good place to regroup from...

My GM has ussually given the target bonus willpower dice depending on how controversial the action was (for example: shooting a bystander that the target doesn't know: +1, shooting someone the target does know but doesn't have feelings for, +2, shooting a coworker +3, shooting a friend +4, shooting self +9).

Sometimes the bonus dice weren't quite that well defined, but more along the lines of "No, (I don't want you to | you shouldn't) be able to do that! +6 dice."

Often times it doesn't matter.

I've thought about using the Hero systems mind control difficulty descriptions for mental manips in SR4. Something like +2 dice for every +10 to the ego in hero system. On a basic level is +0 do what you'd do anyways.
+10 do something you are mildly opposed to doing, +20 do something you are strongly opposed to, +30 do something you are diametrically opposed to.

This is an area that really needs an errata or house rules. I wouldn't use kzt's interpretation of control thoughts where you can force people not to resist, and even still its way too overpowered IMO. 5 combat turns is an eternity in a fight, and I wouldn't sweat the drain too much on the AoE version of the spell. Force 3-5 spells should not shut down the entire fight on one cast. Compare it to a combat spell like stunbolt, on average I will need 5 net successes when cast at force 5 to drop Mr. Average. And stunbolt has a lot less utility than control thoughts. A force 3 stunbolt just can't drop Mr. Average without edge. Now sure combat spells get more of a boost when overcasting, but so be it. I think its a fairly good measuring stick for balancing attack spells, what could a direct combat spell do cast at force 5, how many net successes would be needed to remove someone from a fight. If a spell can remove someone cast at that force or less with less successes there is a problem.

That is a very good way of looking at the situation... Keeps the playing field somewhat "fair"

We never had anyone who got mind controlled who lived to Force turns.

The issue with it ending the fight was exactly the issue. You pushed the "I win" button with the spell.

I keep toying with trying to convert SR to hero, but it's a huge task and you lose a lot of the flavor. Of course, you also lose a lot of craziness. The cost of area effect ALD Mental Invisible Power effect Energy blasts makes stun balls a lot less overpowering.

Try Cyber Hero... Most of the work is done for you already...

Yeah combat's don't last 5 CTs in my games. But I still would not like it because it opens its out of combat utility too much for my taste.

That 5 CTs is 15 seconds, so they get to resist 4 times a minute, it isn't gonna take them long to completdly resist.

Which is why I don't like kzt's idea of using one of your command actions to order the person not to resist the spell. And i prefer that they get a resistance check no matter what. 1 minute out of combat isn't much time, but controlled until I go to sleep is a bit much. We just don't use them in our Saturday game, its not a big loss IMO.

I just think this would be a good place to ask AH what's supposed to happen. Get it from the horse's mouth so to speak. My take on it is that you DO get the resist every force rounds regardless of what the controlling mage wants. A question I have however is could you cast control thoughts on someone you've already cast control thoughts on, and order then not to resist the second casting to get a better 'grip' on them. One might also want to keep in mind this IS the sort of spell which virtually anyone would try to resist with edge if they possibly could.

Perhaps you didn't realized there in more that one definition to the word "may"



I believe the term 'may' is used, not as "it's possible he will try to shake it off", but as "The target is ALLOWED to shake it off whether or not the controlling mage will let them." As in the phrase:

"Mother, may I shake off the mind control?"
"Yes, dear, you may."

This is a resistance test. I don't know if it Rules as Written anywhere, but I believe it is automatic and cannot be alter by standard penalties (wounds and such) but only specific penalties (drug and whot).
This is like getting you full body to resist damge even in the face of wound penalties. (have I been doing that wrong?)

No, that's correct.

You don't suddenly start taking more damage because you're wounded (though in Albedo you do, but that has to do with the fact that your armor took damage as well, but it lacks an armor HP system, so it's abstracted--you tend to have trinary health levels anyway:

Fully healed
Wounded
Dead

There are a few levels of wounded (like SR3), but if you survive a mission you tend to get new armor for free (and spend 2 to 6 months in the hospital). The army is awesome like that.

i would have to say that if the mage orders the target to not resist, the target still gets to resist. it doesn't say the target can choose, it says the target may do it (ie it can do it). but as has been pointed out, in combat that isn't terribly relevant.

in any case, some kind of additional resistance roll (much like what is found in the alter memory and influence spells) would make a great deal more sense. the only other rule i've heard as being used is that some people require the mage to take an action to command the targets, and until then the targets do whatever they want. probably helps a little, at least.