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Shinobi Killfist
For the life of me I can't remember, are spirits considered dual natured when they materialize? The reason I ask is in SR4A a dual natured creature with the concealment power can conceal vs astral detection as well, which is just bad ass.
Glyph
Yes, they are considered dual-natured when they are materialized.
Muspellsheimr
Cluelessness

Moral of the story - never include "dumb question" or similar in the title of an inquiry.
Shinobi Killfist
wow this is awesomely broken. A force 8 spirit materialized can hide you from basically everything. Just low rent stealth skills and this and you go everywhere unseen vs everything.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 25 2009, 04:51 PM) *
wow this is awesomely broken. A force 8 spirit materialized can hide you from basically everything. Just low rent stealth skills and this and you go everywhere unseen vs everything.


Though Force 8 spirits are pretty rare, all concealment does is subtract dice... anyone with more than 8 dice in perception would still get to attempt and see the Concealed individuals... it is STILL a contested roll Stealth vs. Perception after all... Just with a dice penalty...
eidolon
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 25 2009, 04:28 PM) *
Cluelessness

Moral of the story - never include "dumb question" or similar in the title of an inquiry.


Real moral of the story - don't post just to insult someone. Thanks!

Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 25 2009, 10:29 PM) *
Though Force 8 spirits are pretty rare, all concealment does is subtract dice... anyone with more than 8 dice in perception would still get to attempt and see the Concealed individuals... it is STILL a contested roll Stealth vs. Perception after all... Just with a dice penalty...


A bound force 8 spirit is rare, but a summoned one is easy peasy. I'm not even the summoning specialist in our team and I could summon one no problem. I might take some drain but that is what a first aid kit is for. When you are talking about summoning one for concealment, its usually not in a fight so I have the time to get patched up. And the shark shaman in our group specialized in summoning water spirits with a summoning focus heck he can probably summon a force 10 spirit without to much problem. While -8 dice wont stop perception heavy types cold when you are only rolling like 1-3 dice total my stealth skills don't have to be that good to sneak past you. Now sure its possible we could bump into someone with like 17 dice or more to perception but I suspect that is kind of rare.
Caadium
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 26 2009, 06:53 AM) *
A bound force 8 spirit is rare, but a summoned one is easy peasy. I'm not even the summoning specialist in our team and I could summon one no problem. I might take some drain but that is what a first aid kit is for. When you are talking about summoning one for concealment, its usually not in a fight so I have the time to get patched up. And the shark shaman in our group specialized in summoning water spirits with a summoning focus heck he can probably summon a force 10 spirit without to much problem. While -8 dice wont stop perception heavy types cold when you are only rolling like 1-3 dice total my stealth skills don't have to be that good to sneak past you. Now sure its possible we could bump into someone with like 17 dice or more to perception but I suspect that is kind of rare.


You are overlooking the wonder that is spirits as guardians. Since they have Perception as a skill, they basically get 2 dice per level to perception checks (1 for skill, 1 for Intuition). This means that your force 8 concealment wouldn't completely beat a force 5 spirit. The force 5 would only have 2 dice to spot you, but its a chance. And a force 6 has 4 dice, and so on. This is before factoring in things like Enhanced Senses, or even similar creatures or tech.

Fortunately, concealment can hide you astrally as well so those spirits can't simply see you coming that way. But, I just wanted to point out that one commonly used aspect of security is not as blind as you might think; therefore concealment while useful, is not "awesomely broken". Part of being a guardian is the ability to spot intruders.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Caadium @ Apr 26 2009, 11:13 AM) *
You are overlooking the wonder that is spirits as guardians. Since they have Perception as a skill, they basically get 2 dice per level to perception checks (1 for skill, 1 for Intuition). This means that your force 8 concealment wouldn't completely beat a force 5 spirit. The force 5 would only have 2 dice to spot you, but its a chance. And a force 6 has 4 dice, and so on.

Fortunately, concealment can hide you astrally as well so those spirits can't simply see you coming that way. But, I just wanted to point out that one commonly used aspect of security is not as blind as you might think; therefore concealment while useful, is not "awesomely broken"


Sure full blown spirits as opposed to watchers can see you, but how many spirits guard a place, and what force are they on average. Thing is even vs a force 6 spirit your stealth checks are only going against 4 dice. It only gets difficult if you are going against a force 8 or higher spirit which is really tough to bind to guard a place. So you only have to avoid the 1 or maybe 2 that are summoned and watching a location. The bound ones will likely be of a low enough force that you can stealth past them if you don't totally blow your stealth rolls.
BullZeye
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 26 2009, 05:53 PM) *
A bound force 8 spirit is rare, but a summoned one is easy peasy. I'm not even the summoning specialist in our team and I could summon one no problem. I might take some drain but that is what a first aid kit is for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can heal drain with a medkit or any other means for that matter. Only resting helps.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 26 2009, 09:20 AM) *
Sure full blown spirits as opposed to watchers can see you, but how many spirits guard a place, and what force are they on average. Thing is even vs a force 6 spirit your stealth checks are only going against 4 dice. It only gets difficult if you are going against a force 8 or higher spirit which is really tough to bind to guard a place. So you only have to avoid the 1 or maybe 2 that are summoned and watching a location. The bound ones will likely be of a low enough force that you can stealth past them if you don't totally blow your stealth rolls.



Also don't forget, there are sensor devices that completely ignore magical invisibility... Not sure how they stack up against concealment, but you never know...

And having midline characters with 12-14 dice of perception (with all the technology out there) is not too uncommon an occurrence, so even at a -8 penalty, they are still rolling 4-6 (or even more) dice to oppose your Stealth roll... care to stake your life on success?

Odds are you will probably remain hidden, but that will always be based on the number of dice you are throwing at the time...
10 Dice stealth vs. 4-6 Dice of perception is fairly even odds of success for the sneaky guy, but there is always the possibility that you will fail with those numbers...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 26 2009, 09:38 AM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can heal drain with a medkit or any other means for that matter. Only resting helps.



AS far as I know, You can only resist....
Stahlseele
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 26 2009, 05:38 PM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can heal drain with a medkit or any other means for that matter. Only resting helps.

Physical Drain can be healed using first aid or any other non magical means to heal someone.
And a Force 8 Spirit is usually bigger than MAgic Attribute, so Drain=physical, if i remember correctly
BlueMax
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 26 2009, 08:38 AM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can heal drain with a medkit or any other means for that matter. Only resting helps.


First Aid works on all Drain. Physical and Stun, just like Medicine.

BlueMax
/who may not be a Medic but he plays one on Sundays.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 26 2009, 09:50 AM) *
Physical Drain can be healed using first aid or any other non magical means to heal someone.
And a Force 8 Spirit is usually bigger than MAgic Attribute, so Drain=physical, if i remember correctly



Forec 8 would be physical, yes... to the typical character...

As for healing drain... Though we have always played that Drain was not capable of being healed by magic/mundane as a default, (you had to heal it naturally)... well, after looking, nothng in the BBB specifically states that you cannot heal the physical drain taken by casting/summoning... I would even say (barring a reference that drain is not treatable by magic) that the Heal Spell could even be used... If it does contain a reference, I could not find it...

My Search Fu is weak this morning...
Jaid
iirc, don't you have to target one plane or the other with powers? i didn't think you could target both at the same time, even if the power can affect either plane...
BullZeye
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 26 2009, 06:50 PM) *
Physical Drain can be healed using first aid or any other non magical means to heal someone.
And a Force 8 Spirit is usually bigger than MAgic Attribute, so Drain=physical, if i remember correctly

That would make mages who can cast heal almost immune to drain, now wouldn't it? ...and how does a medkit heal drain anyway?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 26 2009, 10:02 AM) *
iirc, don't you have to target one plane or the other with powers? i didn't think you could target both at the same time, even if the power can affect either plane...



Correct, you cannot target both realities at the same time... One or the Other... The only caveat tot hat would be Dual-Natured targets, though the effect will still only reflect on a sinlge reality...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 26 2009, 10:02 AM) *
That would make mages who can cast heal almost immune to drain, now wouldn't it? ...and how does a medkit heal drain anyway?



It surely would... and a medkit would heal physical drain (assuming it is possible) the same way that it does all other physical trauma... it is pretty abstract...
BlueMax
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 26 2009, 09:02 AM) *
That would make mages who can cast heal almost immune to drain, now wouldn't it? ...and how does a medkit heal drain anyway?


How does it heal drain? Easy, drain is a wound. The medic program, or better a real medic guiding the program, analyzes the subject and administers proper treatment.

Logic 5 + First Aid 5 + Medkit 6 -4 from crappy conditions == 12 dice to wash that grey right out of your hair.

BlueMax
/my Saturday group really needs a medic
Stahlseele
Magic can NOT be used to heal Drain.
Everything else works just fine.
Which is, in my eyes, one of the Big Problems with SR4 Magic/Drain.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 26 2009, 10:11 AM) *
Magic can NOT be used to heal Drain.
Everything else works just fine.
Which is, in my eyes, one of the Big Problems with SR4 Magic/Drain.



Not that I doubt you, but as I said, My Serch Fu is weak this morning... Got any references to point to... I know that they have to be there somewhere...
BullZeye
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 26 2009, 07:10 PM) *
How does it heal drain? Easy, drain is a wound. The medic program, or better a real medic guiding the program, analyzes the subject and administers proper treatment.

Logic 5 + First Aid 5 + Medkit 6 -4 from crappy conditions == 12 dice to wash that grey right out of your hair.

BlueMax
/my Saturday group really needs a medic

I don't think drain causes wounds on the skin or anything like that that could actually be healed with a simple medkit. I've been trying to search the books but no dice so far. I still would not let a mage be healed from drain with a medkit. It's not really that kind of injury, afaik.
Stahlseele
I yam at work.
Yes, that's right, Sunday afternoon, i am at work.
i don't have access to the rules. especially not the SR4A, so i don't know if that got changed, but it was that way in SR4.
In SR3, it was, for example, specifically mentioned in an FAQ or errata or something, that the Adept-Power Sympathetic Healing did not work on Stun damage, because it's magic . .
This, coupled with the wording of the heal spells, lead to things like a mage taking 2 light physical drain, then inflicting some other light physical wound, like a knife stab or something, onto himself, then healing the accumulated medium damage and not taking stun, if he was good at that . .

Physical Drain is you starting to bleed from the ears, the nose, maybe from the eyes, your hands/fingers . .
Because all that magical power that your body can not propperly handle has to come out SOMEWHERE . .
BullZeye
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 26 2009, 07:11 PM) *
Magic can NOT be used to heal Drain.
Everything else works just fine.
Which is, in my eyes, one of the Big Problems with SR4 Magic/Drain.

Didn't find anything about this, either. So if mundane can heal it, magic can heal it, too. My books are first few printings, so if there's an errata bout this...

edit:
Well I'll be damned... the errata states that magic can't be used to heal drain, but nothing about mundane healing methods.
Stahlseele
It HAS to be that way . . there was too much bitching about it for it not to be like that O.o
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 26 2009, 10:20 AM) *
Didn't find anything about this, either. So if mundane can heal it, magic can heal it, too. My books are first few printings, so if there's an errata bout this...

edit:
Well I'll be damned... the errata states that magic can't be used to heal drain, but nothing about mundane healing methods.




And Viola...
BullZeye
Next mage I'm gonna make has 100 fillings for medkit and is going to overcast EVERYTHING spin.gif Just gotta make a logic based tradition and spend all points to first aid biggrin.gif (I still think the rule is... weird, but hey, so sayth the book's latest version so I'll go with that)
Semerkhet
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 26 2009, 10:59 AM) *
First Aid works on all Drain. Physical and Stun, just like Medicine.

BlueMax
/who may not be a Medic but he plays one on Sundays.


My understanding of the fluff on physical drain over the years was that it was system-wide damage like burst blood vessels, internal bleeding and the like. Aside from some super coagulating agent or other really high tech drugs, how exactly is a first aid kit going to do much to heal physical drain? Something I did a lot as a youngster running/playing Shadowrun back in the early 90s was to lose sight of the spirit (no pun intended) of the rules in favor of finding loopholes. So ask yourself, did the designers intend conjurers to be able to half kill themselves summoning a powerful spirit, have a medic slap on a bandage and then carry on as though nothing untoward happened? I, myself, favor a less literal interpretation of the rules these days.

BlueMax
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Apr 26 2009, 08:40 AM) *
My understanding of the fluff on physical drain over the years was that it was system-wide damage like burst blood vessels, internal bleeding and the like. Aside from some super coagulating agent or other really high tech drugs, how exactly is a first aid kit going to do much to heal physical drain? Something I did a lot as a youngster running/playing Shadowrun back in the early 90s was to lose sight of the spirit (no pun intended) of the rules in favor of finding loopholes. So ask yourself, did the designers intend conjurers to be able to half kill themselves summoning a powerful spirit, have a medic slap on a bandage and then carry on as though nothing untoward happened? I, myself, favor a less literal interpretation of the rules these days.


One thing I never do in a fantasy game, try to figure out the science. If I were to ask how he healed drain, I would be compelled to ask how I healed 9 boxes of headshot on a team mate in the field, or how I have accomplished a number of other tasks. Then I wonder how the mage cast a spell at all, or why that guy has points on his ears. Instead I suspend disbelief and engage in fantasy.

As for the gentlemen who said he would stock up on medkit restocks and overcast everything: Welcome to Dumpshock.

Remember First Aid has a threshold, just a medkit wont get you much of anything. Its hard to find a sucker willing to play the medic in most groups.

BlueMax
/who plays for the team
// and darn tooting proud of it.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Apr 26 2009, 06:34 PM) *
Next mage I'm gonna make has 100 fillings for medkit and is going to overcast EVERYTHING spin.gif Just gotta make a logic based tradition and spend all points to first aid biggrin.gif (I still think the rule is... weird, but hey, so sayth the book's latest version so I'll go with that)

yep, you fit right in with the rest of us dumpsuckers . .

QUOTE
BlueMax
/who plays for the team
// and darn tooting proud of it.

i don't mind playing a medic . . it keeps others from getting hurt.
if only, because they are afraid of what my character might be doing to their characters ^^
I figure:"if i know how to fix it, i know how to break it too"
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Everyone please remember though...

You can ONLY heal a number of boxes eaual to your skill rating (or modified skill rating for those who have SKILL RATING boosts, not bonus dice)
eidolon
QUOTE (Semerkhet)
Something I did a lot as a youngster running/playing Shadowrun back in the early 90s was to lose sight of the spirit (no pun intended) of the rules in favor of finding loopholes.


Healing physical drain using First Aid (Biotech in older editions) has always been canon, because it was physical injury. It was a longstanding tradition that Stun damage couldn't be healed by anything but rest (1st-3rd ed.), but that has pretty clearly been altered for SR4. It's not a loophole, it's in black and white:

QUOTE (SR4A @ p.242)
Stun and Physical damage both heal naturally, though at
different rates. Medical attention can help hasten the process.
In both cases, healing is handled as an Extended Test.
...
Characters with the First Aid skill may immediately help reduce the trauma of wounds (Stun or Physical).

And gone from the Healing section is the old ban on healing stun with anything but rest.

'Course, doesn't mean you have to use it. But calling it a loophole is inaccurate and implies that anyone doing it is "cheating" or something.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (eidolon @ Apr 26 2009, 11:11 AM) *
Healing physical drain using First Aid (Biotech in older editions) has always been canon, because it was physical injury. It was a longstanding tradition that Stun damage couldn't be healed by anything but rest (1st-3rd ed.), but that has pretty clearly been altered for SR4. It's not a loophole, it's in black and white:


And gone from the Healing section is the old ban on healing stun with anything but rest.

'Course, doesn't mean you have to use it. But calling it a loophole is inaccurate and implies that anyone doing it is "cheating" or something.

I'm still only on my second read-through of 4e, so I bow to your knowledge of the newest edition. Having just come back to the game, I have many bad memories of how unbalanced the magic system was and how we chose to implement houserules to bring it back in line with the other character types. There is a decent chance that my memories of the rules have a number of those houserules mixed in, including that physical drain could only be healed by more sophisticated medical care ( Medicine and not First Aid) or rest. Of course, I could just rationalize it the other way that 2072 First Aid is sufficiently advanced to take care of any sort of injuries inflicted by Drain.

I hadn't meant to accuse anyone of cheating, rather to gently remind that sometimes we all can get caught up in trying to bend rules interpretations in the favor of our characters and suggesting a step back from that perspective.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 26 2009, 12:06 PM) *
Everyone please remember though...

You can ONLY heal a number of boxes eaual to your skill rating (or modified skill rating for those who have SKILL RATING boosts, not bonus dice)


Yup which is why my last character in Blue Maxs game had a 5 in first aid specialized in healing magically active folk. While I was "limited" to healing 5 boxes I rolled 5+6+5+2-2-(conditions) to patch up drain. I frequently patched up the full 5 boxes, drain really was not much of an issue especially since for much of the campaign I was not the primary medic. In his current campaign the TM is the medic by summoning a tutor sprite or something. We are limited to like 3 boxes of healing not nearly as awesome. In our sunday game I want to donate my karma to him so he can get his first aid from 5 to 6 because 1 more box of healing would kick ass, something called the rules is stopping me from giving him my karma.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 26 2009, 11:06 AM) *
Correct, you cannot target both realities at the same time... One or the Other... The only caveat tot hat would be Dual-Natured targets, though the effect will still only reflect on a sinlge reality...

For sanity's sake I will call making someone concealed vs both effecting two different planes so its not as bad as I first thought. Still 2 spirits(yes this requires probably two mages), or maybe 2 services will cover both planes. I'll have to re-read the critter powers section to see if they can sustain a concealment and then put up another one.
eidolon
QUOTE (Semerkhet)
I hadn't meant to accuse anyone of cheating, rather to gently remind that sometimes we all can get caught up in trying to bend rules interpretations in the favor of our characters and suggesting a step back from that perspective.


Nah, no sweat. I agreed with the sentiment, I just didn't want people getting confused further about it.

I hear you on the horrible memory mishmash. You should see some of the memories I have of what are and aren't actual rules in AD&D 2nd. biggrin.gif
BlueMax
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 26 2009, 09:06 AM) *
Everyone please remember though...

You can ONLY heal a number of boxes eaual to your skill rating (or modified skill rating for those who have SKILL RATING boosts, not bonus dice)



Edge. My medic has a 6 Edge.

What's in your wallet?
Writer
Not to step too deeply into the oozing miasma of the mages/drain/first aid debate, but there are other things to "heal" with first aid besides paper cuts and missing limbs. I see a mages drain as more like blown circuitry, than broken mechanical parts (i.e. from standard combat).

Ice (or those neat chemical ice packs) can be applied to ease swelling.
(Magical energies pouring through my head just might cause my eyes to swell up.)
There are probably a number of 2070 era drugs that help the body deal with burst capillaries.
(Maybe something affects the connective tissues of small blood vessels.)
There might be a refined version of the modern 5-hour energy drink, which uses enzymes, vitamins, etc to boost metabolism
(Rather than spiking with sugar and massive quantities of caffeinne).
Maybe some of the Eastern medicines have been refined to the point of Western standards.
(Traditional eastern medicine tends to take time, while the western world wants symptoms gone immediately.)
Also, there may be ways to treat symptoms, reducing the effects that distract the body from healing itself.
(Many injuries are minor, but the shock trauma is severe enough to kill.)

I can see how healing drain takes the bite out of spellcasting, but the First Aid still takes time. Unlike Heal spells, I would say that First Aid benefits don't take affect until after the time requirement is met. Also, casting a spell, then stopping for three turns to get patched up gives your opponents three more turns to regroup and toss grenades as they call for magical backup.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 26 2009, 09:53 AM) *
Its hard to find a sucker willing to play the medic in most groups.

My single favorite character is a medic - she has 12 dice minimum for First Aid & Medicine, a LoS Heal spell, a custom Regeneration spell (duplicating the critter power), a custom Regrowth spell (for restoring lost limbs), & a fascination/obsession with death (along with a 'you die' spell, Essence Drain, & Direct Combat spells).

She's also a vegetarian.
eidolon
Funnily enough, my favorite character is a former DocWagon HTRT medic/pilot. SR3, but that character ruled ass. I need to stat him for SR4.
Caadium
QUOTE (eidolon @ Apr 26 2009, 04:03 PM) *
Funnily enough, my favorite character is a former DocWagon HTRT medic/pilot. SR3, but that character ruled ass. I need to stat him for SR4.


I also made one of these that flew the old DocWagon Osprey, with other drones as well as a modified ambulance. The reduction in DW vehicles, and cost increase to things like the Osprey make this character much harder to spec out in 4th edition. At leat to the level it had been in SR3; then again, thats something of the norm and part of what I enjoy about SR4 so....

In SR4 I've made a former DocWagon doc with minor cyber (Rigger adaptation and such; about 2 essence worth total) that was a latent awakening. I started the character with 1 net point of magic as the character was trying to develop it's magical skills and explore the new world opened up to him. Doc types can be a lot of fun.
Glyph
My last medic was a former DocWagon sorcerer, who combined face, mundane medic, and magical healing abilities, and was still decent in combat. Sorcerers were so fun in SR3 - they were incredibly versatile. Sorcerers and skill monkeys are two "types" that really suffered from the transition to SR4.
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