I had an idea the other day for a physad who only uses knives and throwing knives in combat, and in fact is under a geas restricting him from using any other weapons. Key adept powers include Improved Ability: Blades, Improved Ability: Throwing Weapons, and Improved Reflexes. What other powers should I consider? Missile Parry, Power Throw, Cool Resolve, Great Leap, Wall Running, Blind Fighting, Combat Sense, and Motion Sense are all thematically appropriate. Would it be better to take the geas at chargen as the negative quality in Street Magic, or as his first initiatory ordeal? Is the Attunement (Item) metamagic preferable to using a knife weapon focus?

Is such a character even viable, or am I totally off my nut?

It's a bit tricky, but it certainly can be done.

Keep the following things in mind :

-your build will be highly STR-dependent. Choose a metatype with a high STR score.
Orks and trolls imeddiately come to mind.

-you'll have limited reach compared to other combatants. Find a way to close in quickly to the opposition (running up to them, sneaking up on them, fast-talking their way to them before quickdrawing a knife and slashing them in a surprise attack).
You'll also want to be able to withstand a LOT of damage, as you'll always be right in the middle of the action.
You can turn this downside into a combat tactic if you manage to tank effectively.
No more "shoot the squishy mage first!", now it's "oh god, that tough guy with the knifes is going to kill me RIGHT NOW before the mage can screw with my head! I have to shoot HIM first!"
As SR doesn't have an Aggro mechanic, you need to find ways to draw the enemie's attention, such as Intimidation.

Note : SURGEd ghoul trolls work great for such builds, but some players or GMs may have issues with that...

Such a character is viable... just whatever you do get Missile Mastery! Sure the power costs 1 power point, but the idea that you can turn ANYTHING into a thrown weapon. Also it gives you +1 DV to weapons that are designed to be thrown. Now with your Geas you can't just use any weapon, but taking a Cougar Long Fineblade, or a vibro knife and chucking it is worth some points.

Also another power worth maxing is Power throw. I mean +6 Strength WRT thrown weapons for .75 power points... how can you not get it for a knife adept?

I would say that he is very viable... what a wonderful concept...

5BP for a martial art.
Then another 4BP for two maneuvers.

I'd recommend Sangre y Acero. +1 dam blades is probably most usefull to you. Though the reduce penalty for ranged attack in melee is usefull, as is the reduce the friends in melee bonus for the enemy. (SR4a changed it IIRC, but it used to be a -3dice penalty, but opponent lost -3 reaction dice for making a ranged attack against them in melee), and here's why this is good... throw is a simple action... you can throw twice a round... and if they're engaging you in melee it's a great surprise move... as instead of getting their reaction + melee skill as defense pool... they're now only using reaction -3 against the thrown knives!

For maneuvers...
#1 pick, Two weapon fighting under martial arts. You have a knife in each hand... might as well get the bonus of always being on full defense in melee! (also you're not using a 2 handed big weapon like most melee types)
Other than that, there's an awful lot of good ones, and you get get 2 per 5 point rating of Martial art quality taken.

I'd recommend the martial maneuver to do the quick draw over the adept power. More limited, but not going to bother you as you're only ever drawing knives anyhow. You'll find the adept points more usefull elsewhere.

While using it... look at the counterstrike adept power... not only do you defend at full defense (-2 offhand penalty who cares)... but you can then add more dice to your own melee attacks on your own turn. Not such a big fan of riposte, though it's got it's uses as well.

I'm also kind of fond of the 'attribute' boost power of adepts... but I'm kind of wierd like that... (rather than spending .75mag for a point of str, I'd rather spend .75 for 3 dice + magic and raise by the number of hits for a few rounds when I need it).

Other fun concepts... bear spirit mentor and use of the berserk power :). Even better if you're an aspected mystic adept w/ a focus in health spells.

Something I just noticed: the adept power Blind Fighting reduces the modifier for attacking a hidden target from -6 to -4, but the martial arts maneuver Blind Fighting reduces the penalty from -6 to -3. Why is the magical ability less effective than the mundane ability?

Sometimes magic is not the best answer... and you can always use the maneuver + motion sense instead... (I'd recommend it). Especially if you're packing things like flash packs and smoke grenades.

That also pairs well w/ a touch of ninjutsu.

Throwing knife adept?

You mean...

Like so?

Amen to that...

Don't forget Attribute Boost: Agility and Attribute Boost: Strength. Half an adept power point for one level of both, and you're rolling Magic + Rating to up two key attributes.

The kicker? Unless it's been changed, you're only resisting 1 drain for each boost.

Which is why Attribute Boost is such a good bang for the buck...

The downbeat is that it takes a simple action to activate.

Don't forget to take ambidexterity and the two-weapon style maneuver to boost your defensive dice pools, and don't forget to get either the quickdraw power or the Iaijutsu maneuver so that you're not wasting umpteen actions just drawing your weapons.

I'd be tempted to take Krav Maga as a martial art. Its probably the best martial art in the game for builds that incorporate ranged combat, making both take aim and ready weapon a free action is awesome. As a thrown weapon guy you have to ready weapons a lot, making it a free action is awesome.

I'd probably avoid troll as a race while the high strength helps the build the hit in agility is crippling for basically everything you want to do. If you play a troll who wants to be good with the potential to become great at well anything in a fight and most everything you do you are forced to take improved attribute agility as a positive quality.

Heck agility is such the super stat in 4e I'd go elf and still take exceptional attribute agility(or a surged elf with metagenic attribute thing) being able to hit a 12 agility is awesome. Considering how cheap power thrown is its relatively easy easy to get to 8DV with throwing weapons as an elf. Here is a mock 200 points in stats for an elf with exceptional attribute agility.

BARS 4,7,4,5 150
CILW 3,3,2,3 50
Magic 5 40
240

Blades (knives) 5(7)
Throwing Weapons (throwing Knives) 5(7)
Gymnastics 4
Running 2
Stealth 3
Etiquette 3
Perception 3
Skills: 104

Phsycial adept, exceptional attribute agility
25

Powers: power Throw 3 .75, missile mastery 1, Attribute Boost Agility, reaction level 1 each. .5 improved reflexes level 2 2.5, missile parry level 1 .25.(not great but its cool.) You wont hit nearly as hard in hand to hand with the knives as a troll would but with decent knives it wont totally suck. But ranged combat is just better so I'd throw weapons more often than not.

so 369 points if I did my math right gives 31+points to play with to round out the character, improve edge, raise magic to 6 is you really want it, raise edge, take some more skills and a few contacts, and raise edge. Honestly assuming you took 30 points in disads I'd spend 40 on edge to get it to 5, spend like 2 point sin resources(knives don't cost much) and the rest on contacts and maybe a skill like ground vehicles. If I wanted to get fancy I'd take 10 points in martial arts krav maga with free action aim, and free action ready as my abilities.

Glyph... it's also only a simple action to throw a knife too... first simple... activate boost... second simple toss... while moving towards melee or cover...

Ambidexterity IMO is overrated... if you're using it w/ a martial you can just spend 2BP for the maneuver to use blades offhand w/o penalty if you really need it. And when you have a massive defense pool already (blades + blades + reaction + initiate defenses + specialization + weap focus) a -2 for offhand really isn't going to hurt you while you're cycling knives through your primary hand (melee or thrown).

It's the old 'How much land does a man need' problem. After a certain point, any more is just overkill. And if he does need it... 4 karma and a trainer to train the offhand blades maneuver.

use toxins, poisons, and drugs to increase the lethality of your knives.

When it comes to Adept powers I can't stress Counter-Attack enough. You are at a disadvantage for reach using a knife a lot of the time, so let them come to you, parry/block, and then unleash hell. Improved Reflexes will also serve you well, since if you're not hitting as hard, you'll want to hit often.

It's a great concept, seen in several films or fiction [weirdly I can only think of knifemen in Westerns].

I'd emphasis speed and skill over raw strength.
Perhaps with acrobats.

What I would do(assuming 400 BP)-keep in mind skillwise, he'll be pretty specialized.


Elf(30 BP)

B: 4(30) A: 6(40) R: 4(30) S: 5(40) C: 3(0) I: 3(20) L: 2(10) W: 3(20) E: 2(10) M: 5(40)

Total Attributes: 240
Race: 30

BP Left: 130.

Now, take Adept(5 BP), 3 martial arts that adds DV to Blades(I think there is 3), for 15 BP. 35 points of negative qualities will get you an extra 15 BP.

BP Left now: 145.

Blades(Knifes): 6(+2)-24
Perception: 2-8
Ground Craft/Wheeled: 1(+2)-6
Athletics Group: 4-40
Thrown Weapons(Knives): 4(+2)-18
Etiquette: 2-8
Infiltration(Urban): 2(+2)-10

BP on Skills: 114
BP for Maneuvers: 10(take 5 maneuvers)

124 spent, 21 BP left. for resources and contacts.

Keep in mind this idea is for a ''Pure'' Adept build, with no cyberware. Now, I shall show you the augmented version-which is substantially rather more dangerous in a few ways.

400 BP

+25 BP Positive(Include Restricted Gear: Suprathyroid here.)
-35 Negative

Net 10 BP(410 total)

Race: 30
BP remaining: 380.

B: 4(30) A: 5(30) R: 3(20) S: 4(30) C: 3(0) I: 3(20) L: 2(10) W: 3(20) E: 2(10) M: 6(65)(brought to 4 with 'ware)

Total BP on Attributes: 235.

Remaining: 145 BP.

Active Skills:

Blades(Knives): 5(+2)-22
Perception: 2-8
Pilot Ground/Wheeled: 1(+2)-6
Athletics Skill Group: 2(-20
Thrown Weapons(Knives). 4(+2)-18
Etiquette: 2-8
Infiltration(Urban): 2(+2)-10

Total BP on Skills-92.

Left: 53.
Toss aside just 15 or so for contacts/maneuvers, leaving 38, which is ALL going to Resources, giving 190,000.

Bioware:

Synthacardium Lv. 2(20k nuyen, .2 Essence)
Synaptic Booster Lv. 1(80k Nuyen, .5 Essence)
Suprathyroid Gland(45k nuyen, .7 essence)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4 essence, 16k nuyen)
Muscle Augmentation Lv. 1(.2 essence, 7k nuyen)

168,000 nuyen



All of this will make his Attributes:

B: 4(5) A: 5[8] R: 3(5) S: 4(6) C: 3 I: 3 L: 2 W: 3 E: 2 Magic: 6(4) Essence: 4 Initative: 6[8]/1(2)

The Synthacardium gives him bonus dice to his Athletics, so he really doesn't miss out there. The higher Agility gives him more dice for the knives, so the score can be one lower-and he still has a full-blown 4 Adept Power Points now, since he does not need any Reflexes, thanks to his Synaptic Boosters. It's usually seen as optimal to leave strength as odd, but in his case, the higher the rating will give him more distance on his knives, and even with adept powers, every little bit counts for there. His lower natural Reaction was compensated for by the Suprathyroid and the Synaptic Boosters.

His solid Body will allow him to wear an armor jacket with FFBA Lv. 2 and some PPP for excellent melee protection. His Reaction of 5, plus his Gymnastics Dodge(4 dice after the Synthacardium), will give him a decent dodge pool(not to mention powers like Combat Sense and Improved Blades, full melee parry has a big pool if you have a good skill.)

With a Cougar Fineblade Long(Str/2+2), and +3 DV to Blades, he will be slashing with that thing for 8P, and have AP on it as well.

Maneuver-wise, I also suggest Two-Weapon Fighting, Offhand Training(Knife), Riposte, and at least perhaps Finishing Blow as well. With Power Throw/Missile Mastery/etc, he'll cause some hefty pain with thrown knives as well.

Hope these help a bit. The latter one doesn't have too much else, but he's definitely a monster when it comes to knives. There is plenty of room to grow for him, too; but I just wanted to make sure to get a few other skills in (an Infiltration is important, with some Etiquette and Perception. He might leave the Facing to the Face of the party, and the tech to the party's techhead, but sometimes it's just okay to have a more specialized person out of the gate.) He's not antisocial or stupid or anything like that.

I do like this idea, but then again i like almost all phys-ad ideas , and now i need to go make my own version. Things that are almost essential for this sort of build though:
-Power Throw
-Martial Arts that improve blades DV, and for maneuvers get two-weapon style and off-hand training.
-Improved reflexes (a must for any combat phys ad)
-Attribute Boost(agility) is always fun

So, after a quick think i'm pretty sure its easy to get an ork phys ad dealing 8DV base with throwing knives (Str 7, Power Throw 3).

I strongly discourage selecting Improved Attribute.
It's terribly overpriced.
Genetic Optimization is a better choice if you can spare the Essence loss, as is Metagenetic Improvement.
Improved Attribute is only interesting if you want to overspecialize, IMHO.
I'd not encourage that.

If a troll's hit to Agility does seem discouraging, go for ork (or satyr) or dwarf.

Don't choose elf as metatype unless for pure roleplaying reasons.
With such a limited set of combat skills, Agility isn't as important as for other main combatants, as there's fewer synergy effects.
You'll just need enough dice to hit the target.
When it comes to increasing damage, Strenght will do you more good.
Plus, elves are kinda squishy.
Not good for a close-combat build.

Of course, one could argue that certain knife fighting builds could profit a lot from being an elf.
If you are more concerned about sneaking up to someone (and dealing damage only in completely silent ways is a great starting point for a sneaky scout/assasin concept!), you may evaluate elves differently that in you are planning on charging headfirst into enemy lines in a fury of blades.

I have two elves-an adept and a sam-who are the toughest and strongest guys in their respective parties. One party includes an ork.

Elves make awesome close-combatants. I have to respectfully disagree that they do not.

Remember Dodging is better than Soaking.

And Ork with Body 7 rolls 3 more dice than an Elf or Human with Body 4, and that's an average of 1 single hit extra. (The Ork can wear a bit better armor at least, so he probably tosses a couple more dice there. Still, Body 4(5) Elf with 12/9 armor throws 17/14 dice to resist. Body 7 Ork with 14/11 armor rolls 21/18 dice; average again, 4 dice more, or 1 hit. If a hit would take a character with Body 5, Ballistic 12 from 0 to dead in a single hit if it lands, it will likely take the Body 7, 14 armor person to a place very, very close.

The Ork's 7 strength vs. the elf's 6 in my example is 1 more DV. Easily made up for with martial arts and Power Throw.

Honestly, in the end, both Orks and Elves make awesome close-combatants. Both races are easily tweaked to be both fast and strong.

Here's a challenge DS: suggest a build to someone that doesn't include 35 BP of unnamed Negative qualities. The implicit assumption I see in these "unnamed negative quality" builds is that 35 BP can be found that will have no bearing on the way the character is played. *rolls eyes*

i frequently make builds that dont make use of 35 negatives. The trial run i did for this kind of build had 20 i think (combat monster and wanted SIN ). He was a little bit of a nutjob in my head (seriously, who brings knives to a gunfight? Even if they are magic knives)
I think i'll finish him tonight and post him in the morning

Edit: just remembered the original concept had geasa. So that would be 30 negatives, but they are named!!

Hey, a criminal SIN and an addiction are a quick 20 points that fit just about any runner. It's not unreasonable to assume you can come up with something that suits your character's personality and playstyle with the other 15.

I think the point is that the qualities are an important part of character concept, and not all runners are drug addicts or sociopaths. Some of them actually like being off the radar and looking like the average joe. With 35BP of negatives you are most likely to have a very individual character, and personally i rarely make use of all 35 unless i'm making a min max build. Although there was that one time i wanted to give him 40 cause it fit the character (escaped clone with weird shit done to him and a bounty on his head for his return)

I'd reckon that Mystic Armour would go down well with an adept who does a lot of CQC (Close-Quarter Combat).

Is that a photo from Machete!? So Awesome. You win.

-paws

I personally like Arnis De Mano (Escrima or Kali) for knife fighters. It has the following bonus options: +1 DV to Blade attacks, doing damage to Disarm, +1 to Disarm. And, remember, you can take more than one Martial Art, and the bonus stack (up to +3). Knives are integral to the training. If all you want to do is cause damage, get a pistol. Take the battle axe out of that troll's hands and suddenly, he doesn't seem so fearsome. (Of course, if you are standing toe to toe with a troll holding a battle axe, maybe you didn't notice how fearsome he was in the first place.) Since you can cause damage when you disarm, it isn't like you wasted the action.

I didn't name the qualities because this was purely an example build. I personally have played plenty of characters without 35 points of negative qualities, and indeed, some with only positive qualities. This particular build, I wanted to show the max of what I could do, so I took advantage of this. Had I been playing this character, I would have made sure each quality fit the character. Even the characters I have that do make use of them all, they all fit.

Just because someone uses all of the negative qualities, doesn't mean they are soulless shells.

Yeah, but orks dodge just as good as elves.
And they hit harder, soak better and cost less.
If Charisma and Logic above 4 aren't part of the concept (average charisma will cost just as much for an ork, given elven metatype costs), the only drawback is lower Agility.



Sure, it's absolutely possible to come up with an elf who is good at melee.
But it will always be easier with an ork.

With a little creativity, one can, of course, use the advantages elves offer (mystic adept voodoo slasher/pornomancer immediately comes to mind) and produce a very viable build, even one who is overpowered by some group's standards- but under the assumptions in the original post, elf is certainly not the first choice speaking purely from a numbercrunching perspective.
So it wasn't my intention to claim that elves are an absolute no-go, i just wanted to put abovemade statements a little into perspective.

Wow, thanks for the interest. I've settled on ork for the metatype and thought some more about the character's background. He's Russian by birth, ran for the Vory when he was younger (criminal SIN) before going on the underground pit-fight circuit. He was already a skilled knife-fighter when his Awakening came: in the ring, losing messily to a heavily cybered-up troll. The troll was pounding my not-yet-adept into a sticky red paste when the ork blacked out, regaining consciousness seconds later standing over the troll's corpse. Trid recordings of the event showed the adept moving with supernatural speed, leaping fourteen feet from a standing start and ramming a knife through each of the troll's cybereyes. He's been all over the world, picking up bits and pieces of martial arts (I'm thinking Sangre y Acero, Arnis de Mano, Ninjutsu, and/or Krav Maga), and speaks five languages (his native Russian, English, Or'zet, Japanese and Spanish).

Tentative attribute breakdown:
Body 6/9
Agility 4/6
Reaction 4/6
Strength 6/8
Charisma 3/5
Intuition 4/5
Logic 3/6
Willpower 3/6
Edge 3/6
Magic 4/6

Still thinking about skills.

reminds me of my therotical build of a boulder throwing Troll Phys Ad named Trollbuchet. He could throw a stone farther than some rifles could shoot I believe, I'll have to go look him up and see.

Anybody mention the Troll throwing adept who throws dwarves through police cars because they are hardier?
or orc babies because they are more numerous and easier to get? no? not yet? why?

*punch*

Sorry, couldn't control my Fist of Death.

-paws

Just kidding.

It's more "pick what fit your character" i think.
Positive qualities are integral part of power set of the character, negatives on the other hand are there for extra buildpoints and for personalising the character.

That is Danny Trejo, but it's from Desperado, not Machete.

And elves are fail because Danny Trejo is not an elf.



-karma

Okay, there's another movie to add to my must-see list.
EDIT: I just realized I've seen the other two movies in this trilogy. How'd I miss this one, I wonder?

-paws

Just add some tusks to Danny Trejo and you have a convincing orkish knife adept.

*shrugs*
i'd have used elfish or human babies, but they don't get a bonus to body, so they are worthless as throwing weapons too *snickers*

Between the negative qualities of "Day Job" (okay, night job, really - and why do I have the 5 BP income with the 15 BP hours?), "Dependents", and "In Debt", I most definitely feel like a soulless shell ... oh, wait, you guys were talking about characters, not players.

Tentative skill breakdown:
Skill Group: Athletics 2
Skill Group: Stealth 2
Blades (Knives) 4 (6)
Throwing Weapons (Throwing Knives) 4 (6)
First Aid (Combat Wounds) 2 (4)
Intimidation (Torture) 3 (5)
Etiquette (Vory) 2 (4)
Perception 3

Thoughts?

If Blades / Throwing Knifes will be his only available weapons, he really should have either one at 6 or both at 5. Overspecialization only works if you go all the way.

but min/max only works, if you don't go all the way.

Before someone else says so :
Specializations are among the few things that are more expensive before the start of the game than later on (which is a pitty- for many skills, it just makes sense to specialize early on, depending on the background- it certainly helps to flesh out a character a little bit more).
You may wish to save those BP, raise both knive skills to 5 and specialize with the first karma you earn.

One skill of 6 or two skills of 5 are not going all the way - going all the way is Aptitude and a skill of 7. Specializations are more expensive out of char-gen, true - but I would still use them for some things, generally either the character's core specialty (in this case), or for a low skill where a specialization still gives you a relatively cheap dice pool boost.

I think a specialist can go overboard, but you should try to be as good as you can without hitting the point of diminishing returns. I recommended Quickdraw earlier because, without needing to use actions to ready your weapons, you essentially double your rate of fire when throwing them, or can have them immediately ready to attack or parry in melee. I recommended ambidexterity because it is useful for both ranged and melee combat, and because it is essentially 5 points for a +2 bonus (since you get a -2 penalty if you don't have it).

That's assuming you're trying to make the toughest knife fighter possible, but hey, if you're hyperspecializing in a niche role (not necessarily bad, if it's something you like playing), you should at least be really good at it.

If we are talking preferences... I prefer the Goblin for this build... squishy, maybe, but very stout against magic, so they make good ani-magician builds, especially if you can get up close with those daggers...

I agree with the math on this, but I rarely suggest essence loss on a phys add build unless the person intends to really dive into bioware. Also I think surgers with metagenic improvement should be shot on sight.

Its decent, but i would not take it unless I had maxed out combat sense.

So many adept abilities, so few magic points

Yeah I just hope when they errata street magic they heavily discount the cost of some of the cool but not really useful powers like wall running.