Why doesnt the Steampunk Overcoat in Arsenal provide the same "additional -2 Conceability modifier" that all the other lined coats, long coats, overcoats etc in the Core Book and Arsenal?
Ommission? Misprint? By design?
It is the only long/overcoat that has 3/3 ballistic/impact, but the Synergist longcoat offers 4/2, is made by the same company, and offers the bonus to conceal.
Does anyone really agree a ballistic armor rating of 4 should be the cutoff? Based on the other armor clothing isn't Impact armor is kind of bulkier? So wouldn't the Steampunks 3/3 over at least the equivalent padding, etc to make it as easy to conceal something?
Full Version: Steampunk Overcoat
It's probably an unintentional oversight.
becouse its a steampunk coat? and all that extra brass makes it hard to conceal a weapon under it? heheh
As much of a fan as I am of the Steampunk line and would like it to give the concealability mod, I supect this was done by design. It's an overcoat not a longcoat, which I would take as being a coat that ends at the knee or somewhat higher, more of a long suit jacket than a duster or similar past-the-knee length overgarment. They were likely going for a design along either of these lines:
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/Victorian-Frock.jpg
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/Gents-overcoat.jpg
You'd have a hard time hiding much af anything bigger than a pistol under the first, and while I suppose you could find a way to stash an SMG or cut down shotgun under the second type, a longarm is going to stick right out.
There's also a rules balance reason to not give the Steampunk line a concealability bonus, that being the fact that it's one of the better armored clothing lines for keeping Impact armor as high as Ballistic Armor (before counting in things like FFBA and PPP). A full outfit (overcoat, vest, shirt, slacks) comes out to 7/7, which is a pretty good Impact rating for armoured clothing without skimping on the Ballistic.
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/Victorian-Frock.jpg
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/Gents-overcoat.jpg
You'd have a hard time hiding much af anything bigger than a pistol under the first, and while I suppose you could find a way to stash an SMG or cut down shotgun under the second type, a longarm is going to stick right out.
There's also a rules balance reason to not give the Steampunk line a concealability bonus, that being the fact that it's one of the better armored clothing lines for keeping Impact armor as high as Ballistic Armor (before counting in things like FFBA and PPP). A full outfit (overcoat, vest, shirt, slacks) comes out to 7/7, which is a pretty good Impact rating for armoured clothing without skimping on the Ballistic.
QUOTE (Kingboy @ Apr 28 2009, 03:02 PM) 
As much of a fan as I am of the Steampunk line and would like it to give the concealability mod, I supect this was done by design. It's an overcoat not a longcoat, which I would take as being a coat that ends at the knee or somewhat higher, more of a long suit jacket than a duster or similar past-the-knee length overgarment. They were likely going for a design along either of these lines:
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/Victorian-Frock.jpg
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/Gents-overcoat.jpg
You'd have a hard time hiding much af anything bigger than a pistol under the first, and while I suppose you could find a way to stash an SMG or cut down shotgun under the second type, a longarm is going to stick right out.
There's also a rules balance reason to not give the Steampunk line a concealability bonus, that being the fact that it's one of the better armored clothing lines for keeping Impact armor as high as Ballistic Armor (before counting in things like FFBA and PPP). A full outfit (overcoat, vest, shirt, slacks) comes out to 7/7, which is a pretty good Impact rating for armoured clothing without skimping on the Ballistic.
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/Victorian-Frock.jpg
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/Gents-overcoat.jpg
You'd have a hard time hiding much af anything bigger than a pistol under the first, and while I suppose you could find a way to stash an SMG or cut down shotgun under the second type, a longarm is going to stick right out.
There's also a rules balance reason to not give the Steampunk line a concealability bonus, that being the fact that it's one of the better armored clothing lines for keeping Impact armor as high as Ballistic Armor (before counting in things like FFBA and PPP). A full outfit (overcoat, vest, shirt, slacks) comes out to 7/7, which is a pretty good Impact rating for armoured clothing without skimping on the Ballistic.
Disagree. A frock coat, the 1st one you picture, is knee length, just like a trenchcoat, overcoat, greatcoat, whatever you want to call it.
Maybe a duster coat is longer than those, but there was a common version of the victorian frock coat known as a "rifle coat" or "rifle frock" that was also ankle length. Don't forget, the duster itself was a victorian style itself.
But you still can't effectively hide a longarm under that either. Once you walk, sit, run or move in any way the fact that you have a 4 foot long rigid item moving against you will be obvious. A lined coat, synergist longcoat, mortimer greatcoat, or ulysses longcoat only offer a -2 to conceal, not hide it completely.
Also, longarms are not concealable under clothing. On p 311 os SR4A longarms arent even on the list of concealable items. an assault rifle or katana is +6 as it is. Shotguns, snipers rifles, etc are bigger than that.
Even if the Steampunk Overcoat in Arsenal IS what is known as a cut-away frock coat like your first example (which it doesnt have to be... steampunk is not exclusively victorian london, includes old west and goth styles), due to its armored-ness it should provide the same concealability modifier as a long suit coat with equivalent armor, which is why I used the Synergist Longcoat as an example. It is a long suit coat... so knee-length, tops. And cut the same as a normal suit coat, just longer. Made by same company, comparable armor rating, etc.
If it's a balancing thing, do you really think its game breaking? Besides, if the logic for the rule is that armored coats help provide more concealment, how does the steampunk overcoat get singled out as an exception? Makes no sense
QUOTE (evilgeniusx @ Apr 28 2009, 02:35 PM)
Disagree. A frock coat, the 1st one you picture, is knee length, just like a trenchcoat, overcoat, greatcoat, whatever you want to call it.
Maybe a duster coat is longer than those, but there was a common version of the victorian frock coat known as a "rifle coat" or "rifle frock" that was also ankle length. Don't forget, the duster itself was a victorian style itself.
But you still can't effectively hide a longarm under that either. Once you walk, sit, run or move in any way the fact that you have a 4 foot long rigid item moving against you will be obvious. A lined coat, synergist longcoat, mortimer greatcoat, or ulysses longcoat only offer a -2 to conceal, not hide it completely.
Also, longarms are not concealable under clothing. On p 311 os SR4A longarms arent even on the list of concealable items. an assault rifle or katana is +6 as it is. Shotguns, snipers rifles, etc are bigger than that.
Even if the Steampunk Overcoat in Arsenal IS what is known as a cut-away frock coat like your first example (which it doesnt have to be... steampunk is not exclusively victorian london, includes old west and goth styles), due to its armored-ness it should provide the same concealability modifier as a long suit coat with equivalent armor, which is why I used the Synergist Longcoat as an example. It is a long suit coat... so knee-length, tops. And cut the same as a normal suit coat, just longer. Made by same company, comparable armor rating, etc.
If it's a balancing thing, do you really think its game breaking? Besides, if the logic for the rule is that armored coats help provide more concealment, how does the steampunk overcoat get singled out as an exception? Makes no sense
Maybe a duster coat is longer than those, but there was a common version of the victorian frock coat known as a "rifle coat" or "rifle frock" that was also ankle length. Don't forget, the duster itself was a victorian style itself.
But you still can't effectively hide a longarm under that either. Once you walk, sit, run or move in any way the fact that you have a 4 foot long rigid item moving against you will be obvious. A lined coat, synergist longcoat, mortimer greatcoat, or ulysses longcoat only offer a -2 to conceal, not hide it completely.
Also, longarms are not concealable under clothing. On p 311 os SR4A longarms arent even on the list of concealable items. an assault rifle or katana is +6 as it is. Shotguns, snipers rifles, etc are bigger than that.
Even if the Steampunk Overcoat in Arsenal IS what is known as a cut-away frock coat like your first example (which it doesnt have to be... steampunk is not exclusively victorian london, includes old west and goth styles), due to its armored-ness it should provide the same concealability modifier as a long suit coat with equivalent armor, which is why I used the Synergist Longcoat as an example. It is a long suit coat... so knee-length, tops. And cut the same as a normal suit coat, just longer. Made by same company, comparable armor rating, etc.
If it's a balancing thing, do you really think its game breaking? Besides, if the logic for the rule is that armored coats help provide more concealment, how does the steampunk overcoat get singled out as an exception? Makes no sense
Here is the easy answer... To offer more variety...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 28 2009, 09:02 PM)
Here is the easy answer... To offer more variety...
offer more variety?
of what?
items that don't follow the logic/spirit of the rules?
a variety of lone exceptions that don't correlate to several analogs?
if you're trying to say that a conceal bonus overpowers the steampunk overcoat (weighing in at a hefty 3/3) and would lead to twinked out steampunkers i disagree, this is hardly gamebreaking. it wasnt too unbalanced for the lined coat, or all the other stackable coats...
QUOTE (evilgeniusx @ Apr 28 2009, 10:15 PM)
offer more variety?
of what?
items that don't follow the logic/spirit of the rules?
a variety of lone exceptions that don't correlate to several analogs?
if you're trying to say that a conceal bonus overpowers the steampunk overcoat (weighing in at a hefty 3/3) and would lead to twinked out steampunkers i disagree, this is hardly gamebreaking. it wasnt too unbalanced for the lined coat, or all the other stackable coats...
of what?
items that don't follow the logic/spirit of the rules?
a variety of lone exceptions that don't correlate to several analogs?
if you're trying to say that a conceal bonus overpowers the steampunk overcoat (weighing in at a hefty 3/3) and would lead to twinked out steampunkers i disagree, this is hardly gamebreaking. it wasnt too unbalanced for the lined coat, or all the other stackable coats...
Really, it could be that the Steampunk overcoat is just cut differently. Remember, it is designed to go with a steam punk outfit. Steampunk, such as Girl Genius, just really does not hide much...it is about being flamboyant and, well, noticable. That sort of style is not in favour of hiding weapons.
QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 29 2009, 04:45 AM)
Really, it could be that the Steampunk overcoat is just cut differently. Remember, it is designed to go with a steam punk outfit. Steampunk, such as Girl Genius, just really does not hide much...it is about being flamboyant and, well, noticable. That sort of style is not in favour of hiding weapons.
good point, considering a typical steampunk gunslinger would probably be wearing a revolver in a quick-draw hip holster...
but still makes no sense
QUOTE (evilgeniusx @ Apr 28 2009, 08:15 PM)
offer more variety?
of what?
items that don't follow the logic/spirit of the rules?
a variety of lone exceptions that don't correlate to several analogs?
if you're trying to say that a conceal bonus overpowers the steampunk overcoat (weighing in at a hefty 3/3) and would lead to twinked out steampunkers i disagree, this is hardly gamebreaking. it wasnt too unbalanced for the lined coat, or all the other stackable coats...
of what?
items that don't follow the logic/spirit of the rules?
a variety of lone exceptions that don't correlate to several analogs?
if you're trying to say that a conceal bonus overpowers the steampunk overcoat (weighing in at a hefty 3/3) and would lead to twinked out steampunkers i disagree, this is hardly gamebreaking. it wasnt too unbalanced for the lined coat, or all the other stackable coats...
Variety, as in Variety...
Why buy a Calven Klein over a Ralph Lauren... Taste and variety...
Mortimer over Zoe... Same Answer...
Style over substance is the name of the game...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 29 2009, 10:27 PM)
Variety, as in Variety...
Why buy a Calven Klein over a Ralph Lauren... Taste and variety...
Mortimer over Zoe... Same Answer...
Style over substance is the name of the game...
Why buy a Calven Klein over a Ralph Lauren... Taste and variety...
Mortimer over Zoe... Same Answer...
Style over substance is the name of the game...
are you kidding me? what does that have to do with why all the longcoats/overcoats/greatcoats in the game provide an additional -2 to concealability except one?
I have a Crunch question and you're talking about the Fluff...
Yes, style is important. Yes, the steampunk line looks nothing like the actioneer suit, we all agree. Roleplaying does matter, as does well-designed characters. Any other non-sequiters you would like to contribute?
QUOTE (evilgeniusx @ May 1 2009, 11:40 PM)
are you kidding me? what does that have to do with why all the longcoats/overcoats/greatcoats in the game provide an additional -2 to concealability except one?
I have a Crunch question and you're talking about the Fluff...
Yes, style is important. Yes, the steampunk line looks nothing like the actioneer suit, we all agree. Roleplaying does matter, as does well-designed characters. Any other non-sequiters you would like to contribute?
I have a Crunch question and you're talking about the Fluff...
Yes, style is important. Yes, the steampunk line looks nothing like the actioneer suit, we all agree. Roleplaying does matter, as does well-designed characters. Any other non-sequiters you would like to contribute?
Not all gear is created equal. How's that one for you?
The fact is, there is no Crunch reason for why this particular piece of gear is not equal to other, similar gear. It's pure fluff. You wanted an answer, he gave you the only answer there is. You may as well be saying that you don't want excuses why the Easter Bunny isn't real, you want one of his authentic, freshly lain eggs. (btw, isn't it weird that people tend to think of the easter bunny as a male? At the very least, you'd have to assume that an egg laying rabbit would be female, or at least hermaphroditic, wouldn't you?)
Steampunk overcoats look more like http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3023/307818..._1587fc027f.jpg
QUOTE (Larme @ May 2 2009, 01:08 PM)
(btw, isn't it weird that people tend to think of the easter bunny as a male? At the very least, you'd have to assume that an egg laying rabbit would be female, or at least hermaphroditic, wouldn't you?)
He harvests them from his harem of slave chickens.
QUOTE (Larme @ May 2 2009, 12:08 PM)
Not all gear is created equal. How's that one for you?
The fact is, there is no Crunch reason for why this particular piece of gear is not equal to other, similar gear. It's pure fluff. You wanted an answer, he gave you the only answer there is. You may as well be saying that you don't want excuses why the Easter Bunny isn't real, you want one of his authentic, freshly lain eggs. (btw, isn't it weird that people tend to think of the easter bunny as a male? At the very least, you'd have to assume that an egg laying rabbit would be female, or at least hermaphroditic, wouldn't you?)
The fact is, there is no Crunch reason for why this particular piece of gear is not equal to other, similar gear. It's pure fluff. You wanted an answer, he gave you the only answer there is. You may as well be saying that you don't want excuses why the Easter Bunny isn't real, you want one of his authentic, freshly lain eggs. (btw, isn't it weird that people tend to think of the easter bunny as a male? At the very least, you'd have to assume that an egg laying rabbit would be female, or at least hermaphroditic, wouldn't you?)
Ok first of all: Easter Bunny is totally real, I even saw him get beat up by 2 stoners in a mall in New Jersey once. And he (yes, HE) lays eggs because he is the easter bunny. That's what he does. Just like Bugs Bunny cracks wise.
As far as your "all gear is not created equal" non-sequiter, I hear what you are saying, which I why I made a point of comparing it to analagous gear. Do you think it wasn't given a conceal modifier intentionally or by accident? If intentional, why? (a real reason, please)
QUOTE (evilgeniusx @ May 3 2009, 09:15 PM)
As far as your "all gear is not created equal" non-sequiter, I hear what you are saying, which I why I made a point of comparing it to analagous gear. Do you think it wasn't given a conceal modifier intentionally or by accident? If intentional, why? (a real reason, please)
Look, some gear is better and some gear is worse. That's why we have both Ares Alphas and AK 97s. Why should the AK 97 exist? Why should any sub optimal choice exist? Because it's part of the thrill of chargen. It's about picking between different choices to find the optimal combination of gear. In order to have that dynamic exist, some of the gear has to be worse than some of the other gear. If all the gear is equal, there's no fun to it. It becomes like D&D 4, where your character rox0rz no matter what you do because all choices are roughly equivalent.
The only reason for them to pick this particular piece of gear to be worse is fluff. I guess the coat is too short, or too tight to give extra concealability. It's designed for upscale trend-followers, not shotgun toting badasses. What more justification do you need? If you care so much, pay a little extra to get a custom made steampunk coat that hides things better. Or just house rule the damn thing!
QUOTE (Larme @ May 3 2009, 10:16 PM)
It becomes like D&D 4, where your character rox0rz no matter what you do because all choices are roughly equivalent.
And by "roughly equivalent" here we mean "completely meaningless."
QUOTE (Larme @ May 4 2009, 05:16 AM)
Look, some gear is better and some gear is worse. That's why we have both Ares Alphas and AK 97s. Why should the AK 97 exist? Why should any sub optimal choice exist? Because it's part of the thrill of chargen. It's about picking between different choices to find the optimal combination of gear. In order to have that dynamic exist, some of the gear has to be worse than some of the other gear. If all the gear is equal, there's no fun to it. It becomes like D&D 4, where your character rox0rz no matter what you do because all choices are roughly equivalent.
The only reason for them to pick this particular piece of gear to be worse is fluff. I guess the coat is too short, or too tight to give extra concealability. It's designed for upscale trend-followers, not shotgun toting badasses. What more justification do you need? If you care so much, pay a little extra to get a custom made steampunk coat that hides things better. Or just house rule the damn thing!
The only reason for them to pick this particular piece of gear to be worse is fluff. I guess the coat is too short, or too tight to give extra concealability. It's designed for upscale trend-followers, not shotgun toting badasses. What more justification do you need? If you care so much, pay a little extra to get a custom made steampunk coat that hides things better. Or just house rule the damn thing!
I wouldn't actually call it worse, steampunk line is great as it keeps ballistic and impact armor in same level, with gellpacks you get 8/8 armor
QUOTE (evilgeniusx @ May 1 2009, 09:40 PM)
are you kidding me? what does that have to do with why all the longcoats/overcoats/greatcoats in the game provide an additional -2 to concealability except one?
I have a Crunch question and you're talking about the Fluff...
Yes, style is important. Yes, the steampunk line looks nothing like the actioneer suit, we all agree. Roleplaying does matter, as does well-designed characters. Any other non-sequiters you would like to contribute?
I have a Crunch question and you're talking about the Fluff...
Yes, style is important. Yes, the steampunk line looks nothing like the actioneer suit, we all agree. Roleplaying does matter, as does well-designed characters. Any other non-sequiters you would like to contribute?
Why is a Calven Klein NOT an Armani?
Some things have options that others do not...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.