o/

I currently play a really bad person with a Barret so I checked current sniper-records and todays winner is an ami with a ~2,800m body-hit on an afghani *coff*...

Now how to proceed, cause current max-distance (extreme, 1.500m, -3d, SR4ed) for sniper-guns seems a bit oldschool.

- do nothing, live with it cause snipers are already a hell for GMs
- change the current distances, so they meet 3k
- "-4d and a 4th distance category" for snipers?

We don't really want to make these things even more deadly than they already are so my GM took the last suggestion with the requirement, that you need to aim at every target to reflect calculating wind and stuff.

Problem: here's my Krav Manga-Master, aiming becomes a free action and we're back where we started...

Suggestions?

Maybe a new ammo-type which can be used (only) for this over-extreme ranges? Which penalities should be used then?

thanx in adv.

Well, my question would be, why do you need more range? 1500m seems to be plenty far away for you to make a getaway before anyone can get to you (assuming they knew exactly where you were in the first place). I think in game terms 1.5km or 3km (1-2 miles for those so inclined), doesn't really change much in any way that really matters to either the shooter or the victim.

But that's just my opinion.

The 2.8 Km was a bizarre, nigh irreproducible occurence. A GM should let you do that kind of thing for a point of Edge, perhaps. The idea of adding an extra range category that can be reliably accessed just lets someone optimise past the penalty to reliably snipe targets from across the city.


This is really the major flaws in the constant-output model of game design. People can use build strategy to render the special a mundane and repeatable experience.

To follow up with what Heath Robinson stated, the world record happened once. How many times has a shot like that been attempted, yet missed? I think it would make sense that the GM allow for shots beyond extreme only if a point of Edge spent, and maybe not allow that Edge to be included in the dice roll. The Edge just allows the shot. I might also include a DV penalty, as the bullet will be losing power by that point, though not too much. Obviously such shots can still kill.

As for aiming, I don't know if anyone could aim a 1km shot as a free action. I think the Krav Maga is more focused on shorter ranges (not range categories, but actual meters), maybe out to 30 or 50 meters. Krav Maga is a close combat system that includes techniques for disarming opponents and readying the taken firearms. It isn't sniper school. It isn't in the rules, but that's how I would play it.

INT WTF Krav Manga sniper. I mean there is nothing saying it applies only to certain situations, but I think that's a case of a broken rule. Only my opinion, mind you.

On topic, though, I would mirror the statement that the 2800m kill was an irreproducible event. These feats, records like that that shatter the usual norm, are just that: unusual. The rules reflect what is possible under normal conditions (as normal as you can get in the Sixth World), and even extreme ones, but they can't account for the craziness that is a shot like that. Elsewise there would be rules for throwing a playing card 200+ feet at 92mph. If you want the craziness, edge is the way to cover it imo.

Also, welcome to DS.

As others have said, that's a pretty amazing shot. Even if it were reasonable, though, I wouldn't worry about it. First and foremost, a game has to be playable - realism is a distant fourth - after fun and ease of use.

With perfectly mundane vision magnification and Krav Maga's "aim as free action" trick, you can make these 1500m shots with absolutely hideous ease.

For reference, you can also make perfectly reliable 50-meter shots with a derringer....

Usain Bolt can run 31 m/combat turn (100m in 9.69s), but I'm not about to change the movement rates for humans to match...

thx for the input

Why more range? Well... an adept initiated to a ninja-clan and his master like descretion. In times of astral perception and all-around security cams, the approach via distance seems reasonable. You wouldn't imagine how much 1000m can be... in central europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_HS_.50
The thing looks like my Barrets Grampa and hits on 1,500 with ~0.2m off (~8 inch). Not crazywtf-record, but regular base headshots at 2073s maximum distance and thats why I doubt, that the edge point is satisfied. That would just limit the use but when edge points are depleted, you again have that crack in athmosphere, where I ask "Without range finder, smartlink and muscle toner? How... Grampa... how the $§&% did you do that???".

I want to make it harder, not prohibit it and my 12d here after distance penalty tell me... it's still to easy.

Krav Manga-Sniper: *hrhr*... a neck-hair spread for every serious GM, I KNOW ... but if we change something, it's gotta be bullet-proof so a reduction of given bonus to "equal/smaller than Uzi" should do the trick. Are there any other loopholes concerning this problem? (<<-- /me idiot forgot the actual question for the example )

Yeah. People in SR do run way, way, way, way, way, way too fast. Mechanically, the average human runs at 25 meters per turn, and only needs 3 hits on sprinting tests (of which he can make 2 per turn) to hit 31m/turn. The average 20 year old college kid playing Division 3 lacrosse, football, or soccer (Running at 3) with a strength of 3 or 4, gets an average of 2 hits per test, or 4 hits per turn, which lets him sprint at 33m/turn, giving him a 40m dash time of 3.6 seconds, half a second faster than the best time recorded at the NFL's spring scouting combine.

Make him a professional athlete with a 5 strength, a 5 running with a sprinting specialization, and you get 4 hits per test, with 2 tests per turn, for a final rate of 41m per turn, running the 40 in less than 3 seconds. Let him spend a point of edge for a second pass, and pile on 8 more hits and he gets to 57 meters in the first turn and 41 in the second, running the 100m dash in a little over 6 seconds. Tack on a half second to react to the starting gun, and you're still under 7 seconds. Without the edge use, you're still covering the 100 meters in under 8 seconds.

The good news is that all people run at the same insane rate, so while it may be a realism issue, it's not a game balance issue. If you want a game that accurately models real life, good luck and good riddance

In respose to the OP though, I wouldn't object to adding a 4th range category. Bullets don't disappear, or have a 100% miss chance at any given range. 1500m is an arbitrary cutoff point for game balance, and I see no reason why you couldn't increase it if you felt like it. And thanks to cyber and magic, the best sniper in the world would be a LOT better than today's best sniper. Today's best sniper cannot have more than 14 dice, i.e. 7 agility + 7 skill + 2 for specialization. A Shadowrun Snipers can have 13 agility (dryad with metagenic improvement), 10 skill (aptitude for 7, +3 for improved ability), +2 for smartlink, + 1/2 initiate grade for attunement... You're talking somewhere between 25 and infinity (realistically, 25-35, I don't know if there's an adept with higher than grade 20 initiation). So the best today is about half as good as the best in Shadowrun. I'm not figuring in edge because obviously both the best today and the best in the future could use edge (assuming edge were even a real thing today) so it cancels out in a comparison. Something that could only be done by sheer dumb luck today could probably be done on purpose without Edge by the best of the best in Shadowrun. And if you play with powergamers, you might have the best of the best on your team...

Of course, we're also probably overestimating the utility of an ultra long shot like that. Shadowrun usually takes place in urban settings, where super long sniper shots are rare if they exist at all. The only time I've ever seen someone shoot more than 70 or so meters in a game of Shadowrun was one time that we did a run out in the woods, and even then it was something like 200 meter engagement. 1500m is already only useful for engagements outdoors (or shooting down from an airplane), which means it's pretty much useless for the majority of what most teams do. You could extend the range, but if you actually need to make shots that long, you're already playing a pretty wacky campaign.

I recall a post once arguing in a reduction of game-run-rates to more accurately match real life and then the problem you end up with is that it's impossible to participate in a bar (gun) fight as diving for cover uses up your entire movement for the round.

Another thing to think of is flight time, 2800 meters is a long ways, the faster .50 caliber rounds goes around 1000 m/s, so you have to predict where your target will be in 2-3 seconds

btw, SR4A changes the range mods to -0/-1-/-3/-6...

that's what range-finder and scopes with scale are there for.
and smartlink systems.
at that distance, gravity and especially wind are much bigger problems.
at least wind is going to change suddenly and unpredictable.

At the range I once slightly missed a target due to wind at ~1000m - and not with a handgun, with a 105mm HEAT tank round!
My optics were dead center, all settings correct, distance lasered and calculated, stationary target - but the round impacted directly left of the target. Wind was the only answer as my tank's cannon was, if at all, slightly off to the right...

As i said.
But then again, the typical tank round has a bit more surface that can be hit by wind.
Dunno how the relative titty is between surface to mass with .50 and T-HEAT Rounds.
Still, that's a remarkable shot . . to miss something with a tank at 1km takes skill ^^

now here is another subject very near and dear to my heart
just a few points:

1)FYI the barrett .50 cal M107 bullet's flight time to 2,000m is 2.7 seconds.

2)today's average infantryman shoots regularly at 300M iron sights. with a 4x optic (ACOG) we hit reliable out to 550- 600m, shooter-dependant. the M24 7.62mm is rated out to 800m but 1000m shots are regularly practiced. we used to put a 2" coin at the 1000m target and nail it without too much difficulty on a clear, still day (more on that in a sec). the M107 .50 cal (12.7mm) can reach out quite a ways. the 2,800m shot was awesome and the record holder prior to that was a 2,500m shot by carlos hathcock in vietnam (using an M2 and 10x Unertal scope)and i could describe the ballistics that illustrate just how bad-ass/lucky of a shot that was. my M24 was zeroed at 400m and at that range, wind (arguably the greatest external factor on the path of the bullet) was not a factor. 800m moving targets (20" wide) were not too hard to hit once you figured out the formula and could apply it in the span of time it takes for the wind to shift using hold-offs. so the ranges, IMO could be extended out a bit, but a more practical solution would be to apply modifiers, at ranges of 600 and greater, such as wind, humidity, temperature, elevation, time of day, sight picture of the target, bullet drift (since most barrels have a right hand twist) or even at the most extreme ranges, the coreallis effect. not all these factors should be applied for game mechanics though, but only the major winds. and crosswinds are a bitch, especially in an urban environment where streets and alleys tend to sluice the wind in different directions.

3)we do use special bullets for the smaller rounds (ie 7.62mm). the M118LR is a FMJ boattail round and at the front is a small divit which makes it appear like a hollowpoint. its not however, as its purpose and effect is to create a small air pocket in front of the round, decreasing wind resistance and drag.

4)sniping at ranges greater than 1000m have a few advantages, but i wont cover it in too much depth here. one reason is that it makes it much harder to detect the sniper's position and thereby reduce his exposure to return fire, not from small arms but heavy weapons like mortars, tanks, and artillery. generally when shooting that far you're using a .50 cal and your target is a vehicle or other "hard" target and trucks rarely travel alone. when you disable the engine block of one vehicle, if your position is too close and is compromised their reaction time can be swift and deadly.

i could go on ad nauseum regarding minutes of angle, external ballistics and all that good stuff but i think ive covered enough for now. there are so many things to consider when sniping that to try to mechanically reproduce everything would be a monumental task and to try to apply all of those modifiers would bog the game down way too much.

(btw, my furthest confirmed hit was 1800m with a barrett)

Witch insodently is the max range of any sniper weapon. You'll need to use the extended barrel mod. But to really snipe lasers do the job in SR much better.

lasers that can project a beam out to that range, in my experience, are no good for accurate work. at even short ranges (~300m) the dot is so big it covers your whole target. we use em for our machine guns for both an aiming device and escalation of force functions. infrared lasers used in conjunction with NVG's are also barely usable at 300m (though highly effective at all ranges under that).
even in SR i wouldnt imagine they would work much better

He's referring to laser weapons, not laser sights. Personally, at ridiculous ranges, I prefer an orbital gauss cannon. Unfortunately, I usually do not have access to one...

And I think the world is a much better place because you don't. LMAO

However they are all veical mounted but one has a top range of 200,000 meters 0.o although the firelance with a max range of 10,000 is much more likely to be used as a sniping weapon. with the added bonus of remote control if needed. Same with the light gauss cannon only 5.000 meters but more damage and anti armor ability. Though for man portable fire power the Barret .50 rifle with an extended barrel is the best one can do bar maybe the gauss cannon buts its only better as it pierces armor more.

ah, my bad. pardon my blonde moment

No problem. I run a merc sniper and I find hitting from 1800m fine as he can still target lock viecals and such beyond this range for motor or missile strikes.

i started playing SR in '94 and have yet to play the kind of character that brings those kind of weapons to bear. i dont think ive ever had to use a machine gun. most of my characters have been sneaky/combat oriented. hopefully one day i wll but i digress...

I believe the longest recorded unaugmented shot was a naval cannon at sea in WWI. After the war, some military historians were comparing records of British warships with German warships. A British warship fired a cannon in the direction of the German warship 20 miles away. The time and coordinates were found in the ships logs. A couple minutes after the recorded time, there is a record of the German ship being struck by a cannon shell. This is more attributed to luck than anything else, but it is still amazing.

For the people arguing that the 2.8km shot is an outlier and should need an Edge spent to even attempt it:

It's an outlier in a world where cyberware and magic doesn't exist. It's probably not too much of a stretch for a world where the gun helps you aim and adjust for the local weather conditions and where you have electronic eyes that can zoom in to incredibly precise detail on demand. I think a (GM-adjudicated) extra ranged category wouldn't be out of place with a hefty dice penalty (-6 in SR4, -12 in SR4A would be how I'd eyeball it). It's not going to be a commonplace shot, but it's not going to be utterly impossible without Fate being on your side -- ie, spending Edge -- either.

Okay, I found out why you would want such extreme ranges ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLTvUNn3Suo...ec-HM-fresh+div

or how about an INT check to see if you are 10% smarter than your equipment?

The other element to consider is that people in 2070 who think someone might shoot at them would tend to wear detectors for laser rangefinders. If you are not able to get a very accurate range it gets a whole lot harder to hit the target.

There's already a good mechanic for exceptional lucky shots.

It's called a longshot test. Spend a point of edge, then roll only your edge attribute.

And if you're sniping the target should have no reaction pool as an unaware target, so odds are good of getting a few hits.

There's not a lot of need for even longer ranges. Also, if you look at some of the heavy vehicle weapons they have some exceptional ranges.

Actually, long shots are for when your dice pool is reduced to 0, not when the task is impossible. This is a common misconception. Some people have argued that it's available for everything, because GM discretion is a crime, and it's wrong for the system to leave it to the GM to decide when tasks are impossible and cannot be long-shotted. The rebuttal is simple: RAW tells us that long shots exist when your dice pool is reduced to 0 by modifiers, not when it's an impossible task where a roll is simply not relevant.

My point is, shooting a weapon beyond its maximum range is not a situation where your dice pool has been reduced to 0, it's a situation where the RAW tells you it can't ever happen no matter how lucky you are. Now, I'm not saying you couldn't amend the long shot rules for this. You could make a house rule that does exactly what you say. But it's not how long shot works. If it was, Mr. Lucky would have 8 dice to destroy a tank with his wiener, and 8 dice to kill God by throwing a rock at the sky.

As funny as that is, I just wanted to point out that the armor on most tanks is hardened against wiener attacks. So, Mr. Lucky might well slap that cannon with his swinging cod, but his 8 dice wouldn't get his DV high enough to do more than make the guys inside laugh at his harry ass.

Unless he gets mad crazy exploding 6's....
As which point the GM should just orbital cow drop him.

That's what I'm saying. Some people tell us that long shots are available for any task you couldn't normally do. If that was true, you could do the impossible like use your shlong as an anti-tank weapon. Long shots are only when you had some dice, and some modifiers reduced those dice to 0 or below. If the test was never possible in the first place, like shooting a weapon beyond its max range, it's not already covered by the long shot rules. It's a common misconception, which is why I want to talk about it.

I've always thought the penalties for range were a little low in SR4. The difference between short and extreme is 1 net hit. Really? I've contemplated that they should perhaps double (so -1, -2, -4), which would work for an adititional range category, since -8 is pretty hefty.

(But of course, then Vision Mag. would need to be modified, since just because you can see it, doesn't mean you can necessarily hit it. I would probably opt with the vision mag. halving the range penalty. But these are all just ballpark numbers.)

I can't find that shot. I keep finding references to the 2,430 m shot by the Canadian in Afghanistan. Can you direct me to the reference?

I think the issue here is that shots beyond a weapons extreme range are obviously not impossible. (Tank schlonging, however, is accepted as impossible, unless the object is something other than damaging the tank.) Bullets don't just stop at their extreme range. They go somewhere. In fact, while hitting a target beyond 60m with a heavy pistol isn't likely, it is not impossible. The 9mm bullet from a Beretta Model 92S has a muzzle velocity of 335 m/s. This means that the bullet has exceeded the SR4 extreme range in about 0.18 seconds. The bullet does slow, reducing effectiveness, and there is that whole matter of aiming such a short barrel, but it is not an impossibility.

Well, that's true. The RAW, however, doesn't give you any rules that allow you to shoot beyond max range. So while it's not technically impossible reality-wise, you do need house rules to decide how many dice you'd have for it. You don't have an automatic 0 dice to shoot beyond max range, you have something that the system doesn't provide any dice pool for. So you have to make up your own rules about what dice pool modifiers you might face. Or you could simply make a house rule that you can always make a Long Shot test beyond max range. The point is, things that the rules don't allow you to do are not automatic long shots. The only thing that's a long shot is something where the rules allowed you to roll dice, but also imposed enough modifiers that you went down to 0.

In basic training we were told that a 9mm bullet from a P1 pistol (derivative of Walther P38) could theoretically travel about 1.5km...

Likewise, while our tank cannons had a combat distance of 1-1.5km an APFSDS round could, again theoretically, travel ~40km.

But try and HIT something in that distance . .

that will depend mostly on luck, or the negative of that (as some news reports have shown).

We've had someone on this board argue (ad nauseum) that he could still accomplish his goal using a called shot to bypass armor. I don't buy the argument, but a deliberately ignorant, literal interpretation of the called shot rules might allow it.

It's called climbing inside the tank and ... well ... causing something to short out.

no book of rules can ever cover the entire creativity of man.

as listed per Army Field Manual FM3-22.9:
M4 max effective range: 500m point target, 600m area target
M4 max range: 3,600m

ive already stated that listed maximum effective ranges are shooter dependant, but i thought the provided data could shed some light hinted at in earlier posts.

And then there's the whole can of worms called "target acquisition and identification". So your out at 600 yards in a non-urban environment...waiting with you're assault rifle and no scope. People who do not want to be seen start passing through. Good luck even seeing their camo'd faces as they pass through (then their mage casts invisibility). You may get a glimpse with 2-3x. Now move it out to 1,000 yards...here you need a real scope with some sort of hash marks for elevation and windage.

Determining unknown distance is a whole skill by itself; don't forget those elevation calculations. The shooter can still dope the wind by looking at the environment. I like to check the halfway point and at the target, though watching the vapor trail is best (but requires a spotter).

Hitting 18" w x 24" steel at 1,000 with a 1 MOA rifle is hard enough with just wind and errant prairie dogs running around. Movement just makes it a bitch. Then there's managing recoil as everything goes black for half a second...if you're right behind the gun right, the bipod will land in the same spot and the target will be in the field of view. At 1,000 yards, you'll see the bullet smack on the plate or the dust where you missed. A good spotter will walk the shooter right in on the next call.

Then there's this Korean War vet who got an 11" group at 1 mile with his rifle in 338 Lapua. I'm still not sure how he did that.You know you're in good company when you see a prairie dog at 750 yards "pop" from a 300 Win Mag

One of the major considerations with VERY long range shots is the time in flight. Wind speeds are vector changes OVER TIME. Reduce flight time, reduce wind effect. Some new research going on has rounds able to take cold bore shots from 1500-2000m. To do this, they are pushing the velocities to crazy levels, and the design of the bullet is evolving such that it retains a supersonic flight profile almost twice as far (IIRC) as the .50 cal. That should tell you something. I see no reason that could not continue to improve. Also, we are talking about VERY advanced electronics. Let the computer look through the sight, crunch the math (compare image size to estimated height by object comparison. All M16A2's are a certain size for example. So are normal grenades or magazines.) to figure distance to target and you leave aside the laser/radar warning. Tiny accelerometers and even a baby wind turbine on the gun could determine local wind conditions, temperature, humidity, etc (all standard Smartgun II fare) and adjust the electronic aim point. Then skill is about breathing and trigger control and leading the target. With the right technical support from 2070 goodies, improved bullet performance, higher muzzle velocities from better propellants and barrel geometry/materials... I see no reason 2000m+ shots couldn't be "commonplace" amongst the best of the best in 2070.

Wow... Very well said...

Trolls also get an additional multiplier when running.

To the OP -
This is really another discussion on "oh why are the rules not more like real life?". This discussion comes up with hacking rules, martial arts rules, etc. The correct answer is "live with it". The other answers of using Edge is also a fair call.

Mechanically speaking, at 1500m for all intents and game purposes you are far enough away that it is almost a moot point.

I wouldn't try to come up with new rules. Just ask your GM for a ruling.

- J.