This discussion grew from someone pointing out this change that was implemented in SR4A.

Then AH let the cat out of the bag:

This twigged something in my brain, as I had already been kind of toying with the idea.

I had this thought too. Basically: the total net of all DP modifiers cannot exceed your Modified Skill + Attribute pool. That means bonuses from equipment (smartlink), 'ware, specialization, and situational would be capped. This makes skills much more important/valuable because it limits the bonus dice you can accept for any given pool, plus it also makes 'ware and powers that Modify the skill rating rather than give a bonus much more important, since a modified skill rating would also allow you to accept more of a bonus.

What does everyone else think?

Here were the initial reactions:

The objective of this change:

Place a greater emphasis on Skill ratings and the (typically more expensive) powers and equipment that modifies a skill rating rather than giving bonus dice.

Another benefit from it, from where I stand, is it limits some of the absurd things I've seen (and others have argued about as well). One example of this is the Troll sammie with 1 cha and 1 skill, but using an emotitoy and other oddities to be the social genius that he isn't.

One aspect of a rule like this that has me thinking is Skillwires. As they are just a programmed response, and not something you actually understand or know how to do on your own, I'm inclined to think that rolls involving skillwired skills (or biowires for Technomancers) would not be able to count the chipped (or threaded) skill. For example:

If you have Agility 3 and Skillwired Pistols 4, you could get modifiers for your Agility (say a smartlink and 1 aim). I know that this reduces the combat effectiveness of someone that doesn't actually know how to fight. For some reason, that appeals to me. I think that those that take the time to train and know how to do something are going to be better able to adapt than someone that has a binary based program guiding their actions for them; even if dicepool wise they both have a 4 in the same skill (1 natural and 1 wired).

Again, +skill or +attribute modifiers aren't what we are talking about here; but rather dice pool modifiers. Please toss this extra bit into the entire topic. Thanks.

OK, its early and a no coffee day for me. I may be missing something but, would not this place greater emphasis on Stats as well? Most notably, the stats used most often CHA and AGI?

BlueMax

Fortunately most of my players have not tried to tweak/abuse/muchinknize their dice pools. So while I see it as a problem, I do not see a need to address it yet. That being said I would suggest that adept powers be exempt from this restriction.

For example: Any non-adept power related bonuses cannot exceed the PCs Attribute+Skill for skill checks. Should a PC have both non-adept power bonuses and adept power bonuses to a skill check, apply the non adept power bonuses first, up to the limit. Then add in the full adept power bonuses, .

That wouldn't effect anything either. If you're slotting a chip for a skill you likely don't have any DP modifiers for that skill.

OTOH if you do have DP modifiers, but no skill at all you're hosed.

Non social characters will get thrown into a social situation at some point (if they don't their GM is doing it wrong). Many of these characters rely on die pool modifiers rather than actual skill to not get utterly hosed (and then spend an edge). My last character had to lie. CHA 3 - 1 (default) + 4 (teamwork*) + Edge.

Those 4 dice I got from teamwork may or may not count under the cap, but they'd not be hard to get from other sources, such as Personable positive qualities or an emotitoy (as cheesy as everyone thinks that they are). Instead of having 7 dice + edge I'd have had 6 dice + edge (or 4+edge? we're including the defaulting penalty where?).

*Knowing I would need to lie my character took a few pointers from Honest Bob the user car salesman (that was our mage--the lying bastard that he was).

I made a similar suggestion to my GM, and it now finds its place amongst his set of houserules. The rule is actually that there's a DP cap equal to (Attribute + Skill + Skill). You can build up positive DP modifiers above that, but it just ends up offsetting negative modifiers.

(Skill) as a limit is very restrictive - you should not need training to gain an advantage from Synthacardium, for example.

(Attribute+skill) seems a bit high for a limit, like Larme says.

I´d suggest to use a fixed limit, like "max. total net DP mod +6", or maybe even +4. Adepts can ensure that they have that +6/+4, then move into attributes and straight skill boosters with their powers. Samurai should have the karma for true skill, and more ware.

(I would prefer if Empathy software and Emotitoys were adressed in their respective entries. The +1-6 is a bit more on the relevant end than any of the situational modifiers. I´d look into adding their hits to the users pools - much like Eidolons variant.)

This is another one of those situations that, while I've seen what people can do, like the Pornomancer, I never once saw anyone actually *do* this at an actual game. First off, the GM, be it one of our usual or myself, would have 86'd the idea rather fast. Second, large DP's can be gained rather easily without.

My current character, an elven sam, rolls 17 dice total for most of his Unarmed attacks. He has a 9 Agility, a 5(+2) skill, and +1 reach for his Kick Attacks when he uses them(which is often.) None of these are really too many ''outside'' abilities. Likewise, his 14 DP for Firearms comes from Firearms Group 3, Agility 9, and +2 to Smartlink. That's it. He can take aim for another +1.

Combat Sense, at .5 a level, unless you specialize in it-well, the typical Adept I know usually throws a fair amount of dice to begin with to dodge. I don't think this would come into play unless they wanted like 8 levels of this(again, I have never seen an adept at my table do this.)

I'm not against a houserule like this. But unless it's a pornomancer or something, or a Super-Stealth Guy, I haven't seen so many instances where this really comes up. The Pornomancer seems to be the biggest thing that this nips in the bud.

I disagree with this, in the name of cyberpunk.


"Anything that can be done to a rat can be done to a human being. We can do just about anything you can imagine to rats. And closing your eyes and refusing to think about this won't make it go away. That is cyberpunk." —Bruce Sterling


The fact that some nerd who lives in the one lifestyle from Unwired where you never leave the net, who has no physical skills can eventually make enough money hacking online to become a jarhead who could be a formidal opponent to my people is what makes it cyberpunk.

The fact that if you have the right money, you can augment your body up to a ridiculous level.



Hell, just look at guns in general. Back in the 1200's before guns, if you didn't know how to sword fight or knife fight, you were pretty much going to lose. Nowadays any fool can point a gun and shoot, and it would be even more so in the future.

Your vision of the cyberpunk world would remain intact, Shadowfox. A malnourished hacker could still get Muscle Replacement or Muscle Toner (which create a modified rating) or even a full replacement cyberlimb, and then get Skill Wires. None of those augmentations would be capped in my proposal. So, Mr. Malnourishment could have a base Agility of 5 with his cyberlimb and an Automatics skill of 4 with his skill wires, forming a base DP of 9, which means a further +9 worth of equipment (smartlink), and situational bonuses could still apply.

EDIT:
I agree ElFenrir, the limit wouldn't come up very often, which is why I think its a more viable rule. The only time this would really come into play is when an incredibly unskilled person attempts to compensate using loads of equipment. Most of the equipment bonuses (eg. smartlink) are designed to aid someone in the task, so I think a case can be made that someone who isn't particularly skilled in the first place wouldn't get much as much benefit from those aids as someone who was skilled.

The problem is that people which huge dice pools also have huge bonuses. This is why it doesn't come up. The only people it's infringing on are the unskilled whereas the problem is at the other end of the spectrum: the highly skilled having DP modifiers exceeding 10.

Edit:
By the rules as suggested, a Charisma 1 character will never be making a social test, ever.

CHA 1 - 1 (default) = 0 + (max 1 DP mod) = 1.

The charisma 1, skill 1 guy has four times his pool.

As a house rule? Sure. Knock yourself out.

I wouldn't want to see something like this make its way into a printing except, maybe, as an Optional Rule (and even then, I'd be rolling my eyes).

I think that making rules to address "corner cases," like a maxed out pornomancer, is dumb. Yes, you can make a character with 30+ dice in one skill. Congratulations! Also, so what? Most of these characters are so gimped in other areas that they're pointless except as an intellectual exercise or game system stress test.

If the real problem is cheaply acquired, large dice pool bonuses, then address that. Make it make sense, increase the cost, or ban it from your game.

I'm trying not to jump around too much, but here are a couple reasonable examples where the dice cap breaks down and, to me, makes no sense:

Example 1: Technomancer with AGL 2 + Pistols 1 + Specialization + Smartlink. The character has trained with a specific type of weapon, just in case. He even has the hardware to give him a little extra edge. Unfortunately, his smartgun "magically" doesn't work as well has his buddy's (it only provides a +1 bonus because of the cap). Congrats! We've discovered the one shadowrunner - without simsense vertigo - who might as well use a laser sight! And best of all, he's a TM! Brilliant! If he were to buy the Smartlink Complex Form, he still doesn't get the +2 bonus.

Example 2: Street Samurai with CHA 2 + Negotiations 2 + Specialization (Bargaining). She's actually invested in this social ability so she can try and locate her own gear. She buys some top of the line empathy software, but doesn't get more than +2 dice when Bargaining because... why? Oh, the software mysteriously doesn't work well for her. If she's using it for any other kind of Negotiation test, she gets a +4 bonus from the software... why does it work better when she's doing something she's not specialized in? Give the eToy to her friend with his CHA 3 + Negotiation 3 and all of a sudden, the Rating 6 empathy software the street samurai bought works just fine...


Just my 2 pesos.

-paws

Yeah, rules like these would make tons of gear useless . .
and make the game even more unbalanced in favour of one trick ponies who maxed out their skill untill they could not force more points into it . .

@paws2sky:

You make a good point about Specialization, it should probably be exempt from the capping rule. However, when looking at how equipment bonuses get capped, don't think of it that the equipment "mysteriously doesn't work as well," I more think of it that a less skilled person just can't utilize the assistance that the equipment provides as well as a more skilled person. The limit is already "sprinkled" throughout RAW right now: teamwork tests are capped by skill, Martial Arts bonuses are capped, and (as of SRA) Social Skill modifiers are capped by skill.

Incidentally, your situation in Example #2 is now canon (as of SRA). See the very first quote at the top of this thread.

I would personally exempt Specializations, indeed. To me, they are still part of the skill. I have a character with Unarmed 6(Kicking +2). His Agility is 8. If somehow they invented these leg mods which gave+16 dice to kicking attacks(yeah, this is a very, very extreme example), I don't see how he wouldn't use the specialization. (again, probably a bad example given it's unlikelyhood.) At the same time, if they invented a bunch of stuff that gave +1 here, and +1 there, and it added up to +16 to his Unarmed Combat...I don't see why he couldn't get the +16 with his arms, too. I mean, a 6 rating in a skill using his arms doesn't mean he's gimped at ALL, he's just better with his legs. He'd just end up throwing 30 with his arms and 32 with his legs(yeah, it's huge, but again, just an example. It might have worked better if I used a character with a more minute skill in the thing.) In fact, i could do it here-if a guy with Agility 3, Unarmed(Fists) 1(+2), got that same ware as my character, if I were using this system, I'd say he'd be limited by his Agility+Unarmed+Specialization(allowing him a max +6).*

I mean, I can sort of see points to it. I personally am not a great programmer. Oh, sure, I can do some little odds and ends in a hobby sense(skill 1 tops), but even if you gave me an uber-super top of the line system(+10 to my DP somehow), I probably couldn't make it work that well.


*I hope i didn't confuse anyone here. I am coming from a Vappu/Mayday party.

I don't see the problem with this suggestion. In SR3 and prior you were limited to the number of dice you can use in your dice pool based on your skill (at most doubling your dice). This seems along that idea and I'm fine with it.

Biggest Problem i see personally with people being able to achieve 50+ Dice in a single skill . .
imagine what would happen if they were content with 30 or 40 dice in the skill and used the remaining Power to amplify other skills.

So then the question becomes, "What makes a Specialization worthy of an exemption from the dice cap?"

Is it because its a learned ability?



That's one possibility. I guess.

Unfortunately, I think it neglects one of the themes of Shadowrun: Transhumanism. It defeats the point of transhumanism if you need to buy up a natural skill or ability instead of using a piece of equipment to compensate for your own failings.

Also, Autopickers and Medkits add directly to your skill + ability. Why should that change?



I don't really agree with the Social Skill modifiers cap either.

-paws

OTOH, equipment that provides help will likely providing redundant information to a highly skilled character, yet in SR they maintain the full bonus.

Example:
Empathy Software says, "That guy's sweating a bit more than is normal." Dude who is a complete social idiot, "Oh, he might be lying." Dude who's highly trained in noticing people's moods, "I know that already you stupid piece of software! He's not lying, he's worried about something else! Shut up!"

This is exactly how I see it. It has nothing to do with the smartlink mysteriously not working; just that the technomancers limited training limits the benefit from it.



The specialization is part of the ability. It might be a "DP modifier", but it is part of the actual ability, not an outside bonus.



These are skill bonuses, not DP bonuses. They add to the skill, not just the DP.

Since the rule applies to martial arts already, I simply am saying its not a bad idea to make it a universal rule. Although I don't need this rule for my table, I don't have a problem with it. But keeping limits on only certain types of roles is not something I'm fond of. As an old SR player, this does also harken back to the days of the Combat Pool and such, where the max you could use was based on what you already had.

Do note that it is only social modifiers that are capped, not regular DP modifiers...
My gunbunny has a Charisma of 3, an intimidate of 1(+2), nasty vibe (+3) and 2 custom revolvers (+2).
DP total: 4 (attribute + skill) + 7 (DP Mods) => 11
I can now collect up to +4 in social modifiers (from page 131) and get up to a DP of 15...
At least, that is how we play it...
And I'd wager that even if we got this one wrong we'll keep playing it that way...

Social skills are the only ones capped by actual rules changes, but they do also have an optional rule to cap other dice pools. But the optional rule to cap other dice pools, while similar, has a significant difference from the proposed house rule here. It caps dice pools at 20, or twice the sum of the character's natural Attribute and skill ratings, whichever one is higher.

Personally, I like the SR4A optional rule better. It caps dice pools slightly more stringently at the higher end (since it is the sum of the natural Attribute and skill ratings), but it does so without messing up characters at the lower end of the dice pool range - the technomancer with a smartlink, nearly anyone with a rating: 6 medkit, and so on.

I must have missed that one. What page is it on?

As I said earlier; my main thought is don't cap certain rules different than everything else. If there are enough possible modifiers out there that certain skill group(s) are seen as more abused, apply the modifier abuse rule to everything; preventing the problem from just moving to another group of skills since people will always try to find ways to use RAW in ways that are inconsistent with RAI.

I don't have SR4A - I got it from the first page of the SR4A Changes PDF, where it is the fourth bulleted item under the GAME CONCEPTS heading.

Once you pay Essence for an implant it becomes part of you in a real, metaphysical way (they're no longer subject to OR, mages can target using enhanced eyes, etc.). Why should my Attention Coprocessor be subject to a cap? What are my Vision and Audio Enhancements capped? What about my optimized for XYZ cyberarm? It doesn't matter that they're metal and plastic, they are part of the character's Essence.

Adept abilities that provide bonuses are learned. Why shouldn't they exempt from the cap?

Its actually a more solid, defensible rule if there are no exceptions. Once you start making exceptions to a rule, you step onto a slippery slope. Where does it stop? In my experience, there's no need to add rules, just so you can start making exceptions. Its a waste of time.

So take a step back and ask yourself, "What are we trying to accomplish here?"

Are you trying to rein in massive dice pools and limit twinked characters? If so, there's already an optional rule for that in SR4A. Why reinvent the wheel? Also, there's the golden rule, AKA The GM Veto. If you don't want a pornomancer in your group... then just say no. Or make the player cut his dice pool down. Or, here's an idea, maybe once the character's rep gets to a certain point, people start shooting first (doesn't have to be lethal), rather than giving the runners a chance to talk.

Do you feel that dice pool modifiers are too cheap? If so, there are easier, and less invasive, ways to handle it. For instance, just increase the cost of Empathy Software by a factor of 10 or 100. Or, here's a thought, have more meetings performed online. Empathy Software isn't going to help you if you don't have a meat body to analyze. Trodes and Sim Modules are cheap. No reason why a Mr. Johnson should risk his hide at a physical meet.

Or maybe the real issue is Transhumanism? The idea that humans are inferior to machines, in many ways, rubs people the wrong way. Well, that's fine. Not everyone has the same tastes. However, you need to remember that it is a core theme is Shadowrun. Whether or not you play it up is your choice.

-paws

I just sorta use the ballpark thing for DP caps. If I have an idea for a particular campaign; i just give a rough(within 3-4 dice, i give some leeway) of the die pools I'd like to see be the max.

It's funny, Empathy software is mega-good, but I haven't been able to bring myself to get more than a level 2-3 of the thing. I dunno why. I just feel like I'm kind of cheating, but at the same time, not every Johnson in our game uses the things, so it's not like it becomes a big battle. (I guess it's because we only use a level 2-3ish of the things if we use them at all, there hasn't been a need to use the Big Ones.)

Hell, we have one hell of a face in our party naturally; she has a 7 charisma and an Influence Group of 5, and those are just the natural stats. With some Karma she might get First Impression, and maybe even splurge for a couple levels of pheremones. She's a pretty awesome face without all of the twinky stuff.

Does that rule consider Only Social skills?.. if so Face's is punished..again...(and Adepts of Speakers Way)

According to the RAW in SRA right now, total DP modifiers to a Social Dice Pool may not exceed the base Skill + Charisma. I'm suggesting applying that cap to all skills. Anything that modifies a skill rating is okay, anything that adds a bonus would be capped.

What about Medkit rating 6,bonus dies or modified?(The Medkit's rating adds to the dice pool of all First Aid test. BBB.p 329)
Example. Mike the Medic have First Aid skill of 1, Logic 2,Quick Healer Quality (+2 die mod.) = 5.
If medkit rating 6 adds bonus dies to it's rating to First Aid skill,bonus is capped to +5

What abot Specializations? Skill is First Aid(Combat Wounds) 1(+2)
3 die if healing Combat wounds+2 die (Logic)+ 2 die (Quick Healer Quality)=7,full advantage from medkit rating 6.

RAI, medkits are intended to be used by the untrained in order to effectively treat the wounded. The more training you have the more you can do with it, but an idiot without a medkit can't do anything, whereas an idiot with a medkit has a whole fuckton of bandaids.

One home brew I've been considering is to make the dice pool bonuses connected to the "grade" of the equipment. If you want a +2 DP medkit, as an example, you need to buy an Alphaware version with the multiplier as described in the cyberware section. I'm getting kind of tired of 400 for an extra 4 DP in First Aid checks, as an example.

I can tell you right now that EMT/Paramedics would cream their frickin' jeans if they got that much bang for the buck in their gear...

That has a limited number of uses.

Noted, but the 50 refills aren't exactly braking the bank, either. Hell, they charge you $500+(If not $1000+) just to get hauled to the ER anymore, let alone the supplies the EMT/Paramedics actually use on your bitchass as they drive you there. Add that anything labeled "Medical Use" has a street index of 3-4 IRL and you get the idea that the ol' superfly, double-dong crash medkit with all of those medical doohikies to keep your homies from doing the spurty bit until they're dry...just might cost a bit more than 400 . We're talking about a kit that is good enough to almost do it for you and to give an actual skill bonus, not just some gauze, aspirin, and bandaids.

Just a thought...

Well, I always thought about it as A. Technology, and B. Shadowrun is not real life-if it were, there might be a few slight differences.

That, and here in Finland it's not quite a huge sum to visit the hospital; I've gotten an X-Ray done for all of 50 euros. I did have to go to the hospital in the US before, however, and talk about ''bank ouchie.''