So what if the ghost in the machine really is real, and otaku are more like shamans? Sure some say its just deus, or that otaku are just crazy, but maybe magic and technology DO mix, just not well enough yet due to the lack (comparatively) of mana, being so early in the 6thworld and all. as Magic grows, so may the Otaku, and how bad ass would rigger adepts be? What if the matrix has an astral plane also? or metaplanes? (an Astrix? **** Metrix?) What if it IS a metaplane? Are AI's just summoned Matrix spirits? Maybe IC are elementals. Maybe the weaker version of the ai's (cant remember the name... damnit) are watchers. Dunkie seemed to love the idea of advancing technology; could this be why? I think they will mix well in the future. Just a thought

bleh. i like my non-magical otaku (thanks a million, kenson).

Magical otaku BAD! Magical Matrix BAD! BAD KENSON, NO BISCUIT!

If your gonna go this route then i go with AI's being more akin to totems.

Otaku who were created by them worship them. And the AI chose them to be Otaku. Seems to follow what little we know about Totems.

Daemons and Sprites would be your Spirits and Watchers.

"These are what i see as the Matrix equiventlys of"

Fine. I'll make this short.

Matrix BAD! Magic BAD! EVERYTHING YOU HOLD DEAR IS HORRIBLE! HORRIBLE I SAY!

Man, I sound like the Church.

Asterisk. An Asterix shaman is something entirely different
"Restrictions: Must be from Armorica, must oppose Caesar"

~J

It is possible to have magical otakus... and it is totally within the rules too.

Thanks to the Surge

Datajack weapon foci anyone?

Na cos then id only be able to use it in attack tests. Enchant it to a power foci then i can use it any way i want

Assuming im actually allowed to bond the thing........

Seeing how the matrix is nothing but a man-made network of man-made computers and SKs being man-made programs where programmers have written every single line of code themselves at some point I find this whole discussion about the matrix having and astral plane or even BEING an astral plane a bit silly. The matrix isn't any place or something. What you see when you enter the matrix is nothing but computer generated images, an abstraction of data. You are not actually IN the matrix, like you could enter the astral plane. Sure, the matrix and its representation make it seem that way but the matrix is actually not that much different from our internet we are using this very moment. Just more high-tech. The astral plane is another part of our reality, overlapping or reality. The matrix is not. The matrix IS a machine, a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Spirits may be able to use it. They may even restrict themselves to use it exclusively, not doing anything else, like a decker who remains decked in 24/7 being nurtured by a probe. That would make them living in the matrix, yes, but not exist in the matrix. They would still exist and be attackable in the real world or astral plane.

Now, AIs being spirits or ghosts or totems or whatever might even be viable. All of course assuming that magic and technology do mix, which they hardly do according to canon. However, it could be possible that the matrix could be influenced by or (less likely) even inhibited by astral beings. What seperates AIs from any other program is that no one understands how they are created. They just start to exist. They are born and no one knows why or how. So, they might very well be an astral entity which 'posseses' an SK.

Now I hope I didn't step onto anybody's toes here. I have a feeling that my posts seem to be a bit offensive lately...

Hey actually agree.

My post up there was more towards "These are what i see as the Matrix equiventlys of"

Perhaps i should put that? yes i think i will.
Besides being a bit tongue in cheeck over the whole matter anyhow..

You are not actually in astral space... your consciousness is in astral space. You are not in the Matrix, your consciousness is.

Argh, how should I explain this...

Of course, on the surface the Matrix and Astral Space look very much alike. However, the Matrix isn't an actual *place* like the Astral Plane. When you go astral your actual soul or spirit leaves your body. Not so for the matrix. You stay inside your body. It's just that your sensors are overriden and you get sensoric input from a computer instead of the real world.
Of every place in the real world there is an equivalent in astral space. You can travel the earth in astral space. Not so in the matrix. You can log into and request data from an host on the other side of the globe but that's a different matter completely. You can not actually go to any place you like. You can only go to the hosts connected to the matrix and even that is not actually 'going there' but merely making a phone call, so to speak.

Notice, I'm talking about astral projection not astrally perceiving.

Also, your consciousness isn't in the matrix. You just perceive it to be that way. If you are in astral space and someone hacks up your body, you will live for a few more hours until you die because you can't return to your body and your soul slowly dissolves. If you're in the matrix and someone rips your body appart you die instantly because you are still inside your body.
BTW: The definition of consciousness is a very difficult and not really managable task so we might be talking about different things here...

Let me stress this: the matrix is in no way different than todays internet, just with more potent computers and different protocolls. The principle stays the same. Saying there are ghosts in the matrix is like saying there are ghosts in the internet. Saying SKs are ghosts is like saying Google is a ghost (well, almost. I know that google does not really compare to an SK but I can't think of any well known program that does right now).

Astral space isn't *real* either. You are going to places in your mind. To quote Morpheus,"What is real?"

no, astral space is real. you're not going places in your mind--your mind is going places. big difference.

Can you measure as space? Can you juggle in astral space? Can you download information from astral space?

Astral space is as real as the Matrix. Anywhere you can die is as real as it gets.

the Matrix isn't a place, any more than the Internet is a place. the Matrix just requires a better-grade keyboard. the difference between the Matrix and the Astral is that the Matrix is wholly contained within the real world. anywhere you can go through your datajack, i can go with my keyboard--and if you're an otaku, there are places i can go that you can't. in the Astral, you can end up places that are wholly unreachable by mundane means.

For the record, there is fairly equal proof that Otaku are or are not a magical development (with a leaning toward not if you accept the novel Psychotrope).

• Otaku are fairly obviously not magical. No magic attribute, no foci use, nada.
• Otaku cannot start out magical.
• Otaku have variants on conjuring (Daemon summoning), spells (Utilities) and Initiation (submersion)
• Otaku, like magicians, break the rules.
• Otaku differ into two broad groups, cyberadepts and technoshamans, which mirror magical divides.
• The novel Psychotrope claims the Semi-Autonomous Knowbot created by Echo Mirage creates otaku. Of course, it also claims that you see a change in the aura of the otaku as it jacks in to the Matrix.
• AIs, such as Deus, have been shown capable of creating otaku.
• References

So. On the one hand, otaku are a natural development parallel to magicians. Sort of like marsupials vs. other mammals.

On the otre, ye have magic adapting to the syntax of the time: if enough people believe in a thing that doesn't exist, it might start to exist.

Or the dastardly and daring AIs are just spurring human development.

I prefer a mixture of the three.

Funny, I remembered it as Astral damage always does physical.

Zazen, you're right. p 176, it does stun or physical at the discretion of whoever is causing the damage. Spellcasting always does physical. Either way, it can be plenty deadly.

Then blame the people who misuse the word (said 40-year-old-male-Usagis).

~J

Just a random note (says the second person with a name in Japanese - at least I assume that Kagetenshi has Japanese origins) - that's a rather gross (literally) generalization. I'm personally not a huge anime fan, but a good portion of my friends are, and describing them how you did is about on par with describing all priests as pedophiles. I'm not offended, just thought I'd point out your ideas aren't terribly accurate.

The American anime and manga market, like most little subcultures that find a niche in the bookstore, gamestore or comicstore, is heavily misrepresented by fat, bearded guys doing Sailor Moon cosplay. You see the same thing by checking the number of mangas and anime available on line at any given time: cartoon porn for the most part.

So what's it really mean, then?

I'd always heard otaku meaning something very like "geek" - someone who is really into something, as in "theater geek" or "band geek" or whatever. But then, I ain't got no culture, per se.

So how do we call Otaku then?

AI groupies?

Hmm, rereading Magic of the Sixth World, there are metaplanes for mythical or legendary places. Deus host could be as much mythical and legendary for otakus than Mount Olympus was for the Ancient Greeks. In that case the destruction of the SCIRE host is not even relevant... it could still survive as a metaplane. The only limitation could be the low number of worshipers and the limited time in comparison to historical religions. It does not mean at all otakus or deckers could ever log on such metaplane, at least not more than entering Ancient Greek Gods Residence when reaching the top of the real Olympus Mt. in Greece.

If memory serves, most o the Otaku are magical theories start with the similarities in the way the rules operate. From there certain writers have overlaid their own magical elements onto the Otaku's, strengthening the idea. But really, it's a pointless arguement. There's about enough there for it to go either way, and it's really left to the GM to decide which way he/she wants to go.

I have a quote that fits this situation pretty well. You know... 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'

I've always felt that's sorta what they were giving us a taste of with the Otaku.

Literally (If I'm remembering what little Japanese I learned), otaku is basically the most devoted of fans. The sudden conotation that says it's a fat bearded sweaty bald guy dressed in female cosplay is a stereotype, just like saying that all blacks like watermelon or that all Oriental men have small "manhoods."

Back to the topic: I can see where there would be a line of thought saying that magic and otaku are similar, but also note that riggers would be akin as well.

Think of it, while rigged to a vehicle, you are that vehicle. There's a metamagic called "Possession," isn't there? While possessing somebody/thing, you are that person, for all intents and purposes.

Yes, the person must be astrally percieving/projecting. The vehicle must be fitted for rigger control. Not all vehicles are fitted as such, and not all people percieve/project.

In other words, though there are similarities, they are not the same. Yes, with SURGE, you could suddenly have a very Awakened Otaku, but that's pretty rare, dontcha think?

ok, the matrix is a big part of what I was saying. But I was talking technology in general, its just that the matrix is a big part of that, and otaku are are a big link between the two. So deckers, otaku, riggers, Even cyberware (look at cz, definitely a magical link there) all have some link to magic. Who is to say writing code for an AI or IC in the matrix isn't a summoning ritual? Or the chips in VCR's aren't akin to heremtic formulas, telling you how to use the magic to 'possess' the drone or vehicle (thanks tanka)? Maybe 'writing code' is like a geas, or just a necessary spell component. Maybe Silicon is the orichalcum (spelling?) of technological magic? Maybe light flowing through fiber optic cable is channeled mana.

the thing is, you can break any one of those things down and see exactly how each part interacts with every other part. that's like saying "maybe the gears in a clock are just a ritual that summons a clock-spirit, which makes the clock work!" you can take a clock apart, and see exactly how everything works.

Exactly. I'm with mfb here.
The big problem is that "magic" isn't clearly defined. The way Shadowrun has it is more that magic is becoming a technology and not the other way around. You could say magic is just another set of the laws of nature and weaving a spell is like building a house is like writing a program.
By the way: The link between magic and technology with Cybermany/Cyberzobies is different from what you may think. The magic employed in Cybermancy doesn't actually interact with the technology. It just keeps the soul trapped inside the body although the body is pretty much dead (roughly speaking).

Danbot, all those examples you are giving is like saying "maye the water in the rivers is really flowing light". Mana and light are different things. Light can be seen and not felt, mana can be felt (sometimes) but not seen.
It's like saying maybe the buidling of a car is just a ritual for summoning a spirit of men who then makes the motor work or something.

Of course there are similarities. There are similarities between water and lava and oil. Yet they are not the same at all. Oxygen and some combat gases look and behave pretty much alike, yet they are very different.

I'd agree that the matrix doesn't appear to truly be magical yet.

However that does look like the direction Shadowrun is headed. While traditionally Shadowrun has kept magic and technology seperate, a large percentage of Dunkelzahn's will was devoted to encouraging the merging of technology and magic.

Light is in fact felt.

~J

Of course light can be felt..

It's called 'heat'.

heat and light are two completely different things, which happen to accompany one another fairly often.

the 'feeling light' point doesn't really change the argument, anyway.

If you shine enough light at someone, they will get pushed backwards.
Well, ok, they'll probably get incinerated first, but still.

~J

light actually has weight. And from what I understand, they theorize quite a bit... like a large area of sunlight actaully wieghs several tons

well, it has mass. same thing. they really don't know what light is--it's this crazy mass/energy slushie.

I always figured light was just on the cusp between a wave and particle.

Because everything does have a wave nature...in light, I reckon there just isn't much difference, if any, between the two.