After numerous attempts to clarify this issue on my own I am going to seek out the venerable assitance of those who have gone before.

Keep in mind, God kills a kitten every time you don't help a newblet. Or was it the other way around? Anywho...

How is Astral Combat resolved for an adept with astral perception? Can I use my killing hands to fight astral spirits that haven't materialized, or do I actually need the skill Astral combat?

I understand that killing hands allows me to do physical damage to materialized spirits (and normal creatures as well), but I couldn't tell if I would be able to use my melee attacks against such a creature while fighting in the Astral. From what I was reading, the only types of attacks possible in the Astral are melee, attacks of will, and mana based attacks (from spell casting). But the description of Astral Combat in SR4 has me confused as to whether or not I would use my unarmed skill/killing hands + AGI, or if I would be using astral stats (though it seemed to imply that only mages used astral stats, everyone else uses normal). I'm confuzzled, please help!

The only other mechanic I wasn't entirely certain about was how force works for spells. All spells use force and a modifier to determine Drain Value (and the amount of force compared to your overall magic decides whether or not the Drain will be physical or stun damage). It also determines the max number of net hits you can have (ie if you throw 7 dice, but only use force 5, then the max number of hits you can use, even if you manage 7 hits, is 5). Lastly, it determines how difficult it is to counterspell a sustained or quickened spell. Is there anything else Force does for a spell? Or did I nail it on the head? From what I can tell, everything else about a spell's actual power/effect is determined by how many net hits you make on the spellcasting skill roll.

Cheers!

SR4 FAQ has some answers.



Killing Hands will work when used against an astral target.

Force v Magic determines whether you take physical or stun drain.
Force determines how long the effect is around for astral tracking.
Force determines how noticable the effect is for mundanes to perceive.
No doubt there are a bunch of others.

Force determines the radius in area effect spells.

So just to clarify...

Killing hands works with my unarmed combat skill and my AGI against astral targets? (ie I attack just as I would normally attack any non-astral entity, but suffer a -2 modifier for attacking while using astral perception... or does the -2 not count when your target is astral?)

The -2 only used to apply when you were doing something 'unrelated'. Blasting astral guys while using astral perception doesn't get you the -2, but driving does.

I had the exact same question. That stuff isn't really clearly stated anywhere in the rules, as far as I know. Killing hands is not mentioned at all in the FAQ.



But if Killing Hands can be used in astral combat, it must use something other than Astral Combat plus Willpower for the dice pool, or something different from (Charisma/2)P for damage, since you can cause Stun or Physical damage regardless in astral combat (so Killing Hands wouldn't do anything). So...

Attack (astral perception, killing hands) => Rolls Agility + Unarmed Combat
Defense (astral perception, killing hands) => Rolls Reaction + Unarmed Combat
(The astral entity being fought rolls the usual for astral combat.)
Damage: (Strength/2)P (modified by powers, abilities, maneuvers and such)

Is that how everyone understands it to work? Killing Hands allows you to use your physical skills and attributes for both the dice pool and the damage caused?

I must say that I don't like the Willpower + Astral Combat rule for dual-natured attackers. Like... If I have a weapon focus and I am astrally perceiving and fighting a spirit only present on the astral plane, do I not swing the weapon around physically? Does it really not matter whether I am strong enough to actually lift it off the ground and swing it around? Does it not matter whether I know how to use it (physically)? It means that, with each wielding a weapon focus, an astrally-percieving mage with a high willpower and zero combat skills (other than astral combat) could fight spirits better than an astrally-perceiving adept with super-high physical combat skills and physical attributes. That feels a little off to me. The magician with high mental attributes and a high astral combat skill should kick ass while astrally projecting, but if he is a weakling with no physical combat skills, I don't think he should be able to kick as much ass while astrally perceiving.

Hmmm... The BBB states (p.191-192):



So... Characters use physical skills and attributes when using a weapon focus while astrally perceiving? I guess that makes more sense. The details for Killing Hands and weapon foci should really be added to the FAQ. As it is, it's a bit confusing.

Hmmm... I guess there are two types of astral combat when dual-natured. One is: You attack with your mind, using willpower and astral combat. The other is: You use some kind of physical attack that can also damage astral entities (which then uses your physical skills and attributes). If a spirit possesses a sword, then the sword can be used to attack astral entities (while astrally perceiving) using physical skills and attributes, since you need to actually hit the spirit to hurt it: you attack using the possessed weapon and not with your mind.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around dual-natured astral combat, so any feedback will be much appreciated.