Alrighty guys I played some Shadowrun after a long layoff played in two missions games which were a blast, I was going to play by nomral Slick talking Subductor Con Artist but after realizing the party was full of Mages and Faces and *cringe* elves... I decided to just play my Bullet Depository Orc Adernaline Junky.... and watch the mages take over EVERYTHING... and made me started to wonder... the first time a party is on a RUN and there is a mage.. the first thing everybody says "Geek the MAGE!" It got me to thinking... i hate mages.. and i think a good character to bring into the game would be *drum roll* a burn-out anti mage.

So Basically i was pondering.. what is a good build to Geek the MAGE!

The magically active have great power. The only recommendation I can give with a clear conscious, is Arcane Arrester.
With a window seat to Hell, I can also recommend Astral Hazing.

We have a Fomori hooked up like that in the current group. The idea was to test it and see if it was broken. My players think that I am a harsh GM and Arcane Arrester is a bad idea.

Haunt the team with some dark spirits and suddenly they get uppity, who knew?

BlueMax
/I did
//and that was half the battle.

Dude, LynGrey, seriously man, Spell Check. Reading that abortion of the English language caused me pain.

I was actually disappointed to see he was posting from the USA...

Why don't you try a shotgun. Those work pretty well to deal with pesky mages. Flamethrowers can be hilarious. You could always try to fit in by playing a mage yourself. Failing that... well I'm not sure which edition you're playing, since you forgot to mention that little tidbit, but I suppose you could probably play a character with wired reflexes. Make sure that you 'forget' to have the trigger installed though. You can then 'accidently' shoot all of those pasky mages with said shotgun at close range whenever you feel the need.


Also, HD, Valentino, your posts were pointless and not the best examples of proper English. Bashing folk for typos is lame.

Mage geeking is quite hard, given an ultra-prepared twinkmage. Fortunately, most mages aren't ultra-prepared twinks.

Most spells don't work too well on technological items, so rigging works. They can't target you if you can't be found. IF your GM will permit it, consider playing an AI (rules in Runners Companion) with the Piloting origin.

For on-site mage-geeking, stealth and surprise is your best bet. A Force 10-12 Manabolt has a very high chance of turning you into fine red mist, so you need to stay out of the mage's line of sight.

Obviously, you want a burst-fire weapon with full compensation - or even better, a grenade launcher, since magical Detect Ambush spells have problems with indiscriminate attacks. Of course, you want as many IPs as you can get.

Get a post count above 10, and I might decide to let you proof read my Masters Thesis.
Also, if I was a better person I wouldn't point out the lack of a verb in your first sentence.



Sorry, I thought 4th ed was pretty standard, and figured figured the absence of edition would be defaulted to 4th. -rant- Yeah I play 4th, i tend to want to punch the guys who hold on to the old editions cause they can't play their game breaking tricked-out tweek (commonly) elf. Besides dropping the cash on new books, I usally don't mind the evolution with the editions. Best excuse I've herd about not evolving is they haven't released Dikote for 4th. -rant-

Great ideas guy, thanks for the help.



.... isn't their a gun that has all the above crteria ... But given shotguns tend to be the answer TO ALOT OF THINGS.

Thermal smoke grenades for trolls and dwarves. They can't target you if they can only see a haze of shifting heat signatures and then a fraction of a second as your overused sledgehammer fractures their skull.

You introduce them to Firefly or Buffy. Slip them a copy of Snowcrash, then Cryptonomicon. Before you know it, they're telling you about their slashfic.

Then you shoot them in the face for writing slashfic. I watch Anime but I still have some standards.

Geeking the mage is easy. You want Astral Hazing, a Monowhip, a Sniper Rifle, and ADPS ammunition. This is an extremely tough setup for mages it deal with. If its a secure zone, you walk right up to the mage and unless they have a magic of 7+ they are unable to cast spells. Then you can just whip them.

Alternatively, you can just shoot them at long range with a sniper rifle.

If they summon a spirit of force 6 or less, a sniper rifle with ADPS will be sufficient to overcome its resistance. If it it Force 8+, you may need to walk up to it - getting it in range of astral hazing - and then shoot it at point blank.

Thermal smoke will always be an asset, if you have radar sense.

Not out of the box, no, but you can build one.

Buy an Auto-Assault 16 (Arsenal). You'll need to take Restricted Gear (Runner's Companion) to buy it at chargen. It's a shotgun capable of burst fire and full-auto, with a large ammo drum.


Add an underbarrel MGL-6 using Arsenal's modding rules.

You now have a full-auto shotgun with a three-shot grenade launcher - and a concealability modifier of +10.

I suggest keeping it in the van.

Geeking a mage is really a tactical thing. A mage who gets the drop on a sammie can waste him, and a sammie that gets the drop on a mage can waste him.

For pure damage - monowhips and heavy guns.

For having a decent chance of resisting a magical attack - a gnome or fomorian with astral hazing, with high Willpower and high Edge.

For getting the drop on a mage - drones, chameleon suits, and sniper rifles.

Adepts also make good mage-killers. Killing hands or weapon foci to take out spirits, one level of mystic adept put into magery to get counterspelling (or the still affordable magic resistance if you are going with a pure adept).

To kill mages? Rigger running armored combat drones with ultrasonic and radar armed with grenade launchers firing airburst frag and HE. (and mount flash-paks on the drones too.) However this approach is pretty hard on the furniture. For finding the mage use a rigger with sneaky little drones.

Well, first this was, you where playing a missions game scaling on the fly dosn't really work well when you are running off of a script sadly

Now if your GMing, there's always backround counts! mages love them...trust me, would I lie?

now for just killing them, drones, with the 4a rules killing drones with magic is a pain, or at least more so then before. But I guess it depends on the fun factor, I mean for those of use that like old 80's sci-fi I would say a P4? the police ground drone, load it with explosives and when they pile into the team van (if they have one) launch and drive it under., then BOOM! For more drone fun, I would say, exploding fly spys. you need a good piloting skill granted and programs but have it buzz right up to the back of the head and pop!.

ok so I might of thought of this once...or twice... OH MGL 6 and chem grenades! that also works, nothing says I love you then a modded grenade launcher with burst fire, and 3 or 6 grenades down range loaded with DSMO and narcoject

Oh in regaurds to Lyn's second post...I like this guy

Cyber-Zombies work, too.

Generally, though, I prefer things like the gecko-gripped, external smartgun shot gun at about head level for a dwarf, or high explosive trip wires, or monofilimanet wires at head hight for a dwarf...Shoot at the mage, run for cover to break line of sight...and let the mage be a dumb schmuck to come after your...

Seconded on the cyberzombie. Fomorii cyberzombie would be an ungodly nightmare. Except I prefer cyberspurs + cyber gland + Cutters. To the face.

Failing that, go either a SURGED fomorii with Astral Hazing Technomancer, or an AI. Just use drones to harass crap out of them. Or just choose to remote control their getaway vehicles, and careen them into oncoming traffic at 200km/hr....

- J.

Nuke him from Orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

What if he learns it's coming via divination, uses shape eath/stone to go below the earth, has a custom spell or a high force oxygenate in place and casts radiation shield coming out? He only needs to go, what, three, four km below the surface. Easy! Sorta.

Anything moving after the area is nuked, you leave for another planet.

For a Mage Geeker, I'd build an AI pilot or Dronomancer.

What about that Mossberg fatty ? I mean it's clip is only 10, but i don't plan on using that much ammo... If i'm gunna lead hose.. I'M just going to narrow burst a MMG into the chump.


Btw is there some tactical edge that Drones have VS Mages? I've noticed alot of suggestions for those, i'm pretty much anti stay-at-home rigger I like being there... shooting stuff or slicing stuff with my own hands.

What book is this Astral Hazing located? What does it do?



I like the idea, but it does seem a bit much...

Runners companion. Astral hazing is a 10 point disadvantage (ho ho ho) that gives you an R4 background count wit a radius of (essence) meters.

Seriously, I'd pay points for that so making it a disadvantage is just hilarious.

Drones are highly technological processed objects. Magic needs to overcome the Object Resistance before they can be directly affected. Nasty.

Any one have experiance with the usefulness of the "Murky link" edge? Seemed questionable to me for most characters but might be of great use to someone pissing of the wizards.

I'd probably end up going Drone Technomancer with magic resistance, have him claim he is the new type of wizard and all other are inferior! (Actually I'll be playing this guy soon with luck... less the superiority complex/ killing mages), I don't think I'd take astral Hazing... feels like... well too good for one reason. Its a flaw? Ew. Seriously ew.

It's suggested that the GM may elect to select your disadvantages, so you should never plan on having Astral Hazing - you might end up with a Cephalopoidal Skull instead. It seems like a dickish move on the part of the GM, but no more so than taking Astral Hazing on a non-Awakened character is a dickish move for a player.

Totally - everything needs to be cut with negotiations - forcing something the player manifestly doesn't want on him is not going to make him go into the game with someone he doesn't want though, in that situation the players character concept just got rejected by the GM, so he's going to make a new character.

Incidentally, what the hell? You actually would take, or make someone take Astral hazing on an awakened character (the implication of saying that taking it on a non awakened character is a dick move)? That is pretty much a gaint kick in the nuts.

It is only reasonable that Astral hazing is there fore non awakened characters - because it makes any awakened character instantly unplayable. Literally - a starting awakened mage cannot cast spells in astral haze. Refunding someone 10 points for taking their 15 point quality (at least) away from them is a bit of a dick move!

The only logical conclusion is that Astral hazing is supposed to be balanced as a disadvantage for non-awakened characters.

Yet the only logical conclusion is that , despite what it is supposed to be, Astral Hazing is not balanced as a negative quality.

Fair point, but to be also be fair my orginal remark was that it was humorous - and I like to think that the clear design intent for it to be a balanced 10 point disadvantage is, indeed, somewhat funny.

Actually, Uncle Ancient devised a way to do something like that even in SR3 Allready i think O.o

I can see why its a "Flaw" - magical healing/ assistance is all but completly out, mages everywhere will hate and revile you, adepts, mystics and seers shudder at your approch and curse you from afar...

But dude... dude

At my table, you also get haunted. From what I can tell, its a nasty background. Twisted, unnatural, ain't aligned with nobody. Our Fomori keeps moving, else he wakes up to visitors of the unwanted kind.

He is saving up Karma and cash to try to buy it off, even though I haven't given him any idea I would allow it.

BlueMax

Well guys i dug through my library of SR books.. and finally read up on Astral Hazing.. now thats the IDEA i was having.. making a Burn-out mage, or one going down the path slowly.

But from what i understand Astral Hazing reduces the magic rating of everbody by 4 (including yourself) and anybody casting spells on out. Let alone it adds it ratting to the DV of Drain also. Thats sick! (I plan on being awakened.. well....)

Ok, so MY next question is.... IF My character had Astral Hazing and was Awakened (thus having a magic rating) he could purchase skills that are tied to magic right? IE) Counterspelling and Banishing.. i mean the DP will be garbage (basically it'll be skill rolls only, but what i'm thinking is most MAGES Pools are going to be garbage also and pretty much balance out.)

I know most of you thinking i'm completely retrarded, but hey i reallllly wanna tick of some mages

Since all mages are ludicrously wealthy (we all know they get tons of cash, and need karma far more than nuyen to advance).

I vote, mages pass the hat around... and take up a collection for the endowment of a foundation to fund putting a bounty on any and all critters w/ astral hazing. With bonus to be paid if character also has arcane arrestor.

So is it ordered by the arcane order of benevolent overlords.

A mage could function with astral hazing, but if he had a Magic of 5, he would wind up with an effective Magic of 1. The only thing unaffected would be counterspelling used for spell defense, since it is skill only and doesn't involve Drain. A mage with astral hazing and counterspelling would be almost invincible against spells, but would still be in trouble against sufficiently powerful spirits. Plus, you would only be good at the defensive end - geeking mages takes some offensive ability, too.


With regards to astral hazing, either allow it, or tell the player you don't use it in your campaign, or tell the player your house rules ahead of time. Screwing over a player for picking something, just because you don't like it, is the epitome of GM dickery. I also think the option for the GM to pick SURGE negative traits is one of the most moronic optional rules in the game. The whole point of a point build system is to custom craft exactly the character you want. I'm with Cthulhudreams on this - if the GM said "No, your character doesn't have astral hazing and critter spook, instead he has a squid head and a fluffy bunny tail,' then I wouldn't play that character - and might reconsider playing in that game.

Like high force Guardian spirits with assault weapons...

I tend to find that the players that want to take Astral Hazing - and want to gain points for taking it - are the types I want to have reconsidering their decision to play in my games.

To reiterate, a GM who doesn't make his expectations clear beforehand, but simply berates or attempts to punish players for picking logical, optimal options from the rules, is a dick. If a GM said "I don't find astral hazing balanced, so I don't allow it in my games," that would be fine with me. A GM who says "Whuaaghh!! You picked aastraaal haaaaziiing!! Nooo, you don't get it, you get a squid head instead, hahahahaha!!" isn't good enough to run F.A.T.A.L., much less Shadowrun.

And that right there is why Astral Hazing is a really stupid idea.

Remember, the points costs in SR are balanced, assuming you are playing in the default setting, which is teams of Shadowrunners doing stuff for money.

Teams.

Yes, a mundane character with Astral Hazing suffers absolutely no direct penalties as a result of the ability. The two or three mages (I'm guessing this number from the plural) in his party are, on the other hand, completely screwed.

Which begs the question, why the hell did this group ever let him join in the first place. If this question can be answered satisfactorily, it's a reasonably worth-while negative quality to have, but still very much a disadvantage. If it can't, trash the character and make a new one.

Losing out on your magical support sucks. Personally, I really like know the mage can throw a stunball at those six guards I found waiting round the corner. Cause, y'know, then I don't DIE! Either Arcane Arrester or Magic Resistance are perfectly good "Mundane who is resistant to magic" traits. Taking Astral Hazing just screws the group over, and ultimately costs you far more than it gains you, unless the rest of the group is down with the idea of doing an all mundane party.

Bingo...

An Alpha with APDS, air burst and HE grenades will often suffice....

Nah... this is when the mages give the collective screw you... and engage in the time honored tradition of PK. Mage's sporting rediculously high int/log/cha tend to be most inventive in ways to make such a character suffer before death undying.

You know we really need a fall guy for this... and he's perfect for the role.

Even mages can toss grenades into a furball with a meatshield surrounded by guards... or have his bed neatly set w/ demolitions skill (nice support skill for logic traditions!). Or hire a sniper to off him when they call him to let him know there's a Johnson and we're looking to meet here.

Seriously... that ability IMO equals an instant 'wanted' quality... You want him... dead.

That really depends. Background Count 4 is quite bad but if your group is planning for the long term, then it can be a serious advantage though.

At any Background Count higher than 4, you can get close to the Astral Hazer and take a discount on the Background Count. In an aspected BC of 4 or more, your Astral Hazer can close to whoever the BC is aspected towards and they take a power nosedive while you are well prepared to operate in a BC of 4. It is a justifiably serious pain in the ass for the Awakened at the beginning, but like many other Negative Qualities it can work for you, if you just put in the time and effort.

The 'oh noes astral hazing will interfer with the team' thing is stupid.

A) If it is actually a disadvantage, it is a total dick move on the part of the player using it - ts just unabashed griefing. Secondly if you're standing that close to someone it isn;t good for your general survivability.

Seriously, if this is why it's supposed to be a disadvantage, it should just be deleted. Characters like this are just annoying and cause resentment, whether a guy being a jerk with his AMF field, a backstabbing mage or a kender that just steals things, you've completely missed the point.

The really retarded thing is, if this makes it bad, you're actually getting a discount on your powers because someone else in the game is getting fucked over for it. It would be like one guying taking an advantage for 5 BP that says he gets 50BP from every other player in the game for his character. Would you let anyone do that? Hell no. Would that be a chronically stupid piece of game design? Hell yes. Given that, I'm pretty sure this isn't the intention.

B) Why the hell would you make a character with astral hazing that relies on standing next to the mage when the chips are down. Why not make a sniper. Or rigger. Or Hacker or whatever the hell else. Okay you might not be the most loved person when you all go grab a burger, but the fact that the mage is getting a face full of static then is livable. When it really matters, you can just stand further away.

From what I've seen SR4 is pretty deadly, and any half maximied character has a very good chance of killing a mage (or anything else), provided you're willing to get out the bigger guns, a grenade, or rush in there and chop him good. Astral hazing is pure bad-ass anti-mage, but unless you're a melee guy, forget it. Easier to just shoot him up.

I am not quite sure what you mean.

There will times where it is nearly impossible to be more than 6m from the guy. If the Astral Hazer is at low Essense, usually if space is not a concern, only an idiot will be that close to the guy but consider the cramped confines of a vehicle, often you do not have a choice. Narrow alleys, small hallways, sewers, cramped urban quarters also limit how far you can actually stay away from the Background Count.

There are 2 ways that I can think of to try to make the best use of the effects of Astral Hazing.

1) The first way I have outlined above - make use of the stable BC 4, make it work for you. This works best for a technomancer because your Essense is probably going to be 6 or nearly so.

2) The second way would be to reduce the area it affects. This method would mean that you need to lose Essense, most probably by implants. This works the best for a cyber/bio sam, because Essense would probably be 1 or less.

Both solutions tend to be mutually exclusive, you either try to make use of the BC4 or minimise the effects of the BC4. Sure, you can try to get both ways to work but it is a very delicate balancing act or you need to jump through flaming hoops to get it to work.

It's most logical on low essence sammies because they are the ones that want to access it and cannot get it really any other way - it gives them a powerful protection from magic.

So if you're standing in a corridor or an APC you stand away from each other. If it's a car.. what are you doing in a car when you are being shot at? Typically this leads to being dead and is not an advisable course of action.

Besides that, I always play magical chars. and up to now it has never been an issue for the GM or other players, to get rid of them...finally.^^ I don´t get the topic i have to say. We should rather discuss "how to kill a cyberzombie"...THAT would be something that really makes sense.

Background Count to get his one Magic point to go away.
Bam, dead.

The problem is that a cyberzombie has 1 Magic point despite his own Astral Hazing which like the normal Astral Hazing, he is always in the center of.

Right. Additonal he has hardened armor in addition to his material armor, is nearly invulnerable to magic AND he can kick ass. The mages I know, have a body of 1-3 and drop dead if you look at them. the topic should read "how to manage to NOT kill the mage". Muahahahahaha!!!