Seriously, I was reading my second edition Awakenings book and I was skimming over how Voudoun (Vodoo) was treated in second edition compared to Fourth. I have to say that second edition did it much better. At least in second edition, the bonuses that they gave to the Mait Tete made sense concerning the Loa. I mean, if you were mounted by Legba then your Charisma, Social skills, and Knowledge skills got bonuses. Being mounted by Legba also made you as slow as a old man, reducing your movement to 1 meter per round.

The point being, there were advantages and disadvantages to being mounted by your patron loa. In Fourth Edition, they all are advantages. I cannot see one weakness to possession in 4th edition. Am I missing something or does Second Edition just do possession better.

1) you have to actually find something to possess.
2) you then have to actually succeed in attempting to possess that something.
3) you are then limited to whatever that form could plausibly do; if you want to be able to fly, you better pick a form that flies.
4) it's not nearly as convenient to step into the astral, pass through a wall, and re-form on the other side.
5) materialised spirits can float anywhere they like. possession spirits cannot.

it's been hashed out a few times. possession traditions have their strong points, and their weak points relative to materialising.

as far as why the specific loas giving specific bonuses, well, it's quite simple. how many pages were devoted to just the rules for that tradition in second edition? how many of those pages were in any way useful to any other tradition? how easy was it to use those rules to create a customised tradition of your own?

in 4th edition, voodoo takes up maybe 1/4 of a page. it's rules fit comfortably with every other tradition, and now it's really easy to figure out how to take any sort of tradition you could possibly imagine, and build it under 4th edition rules. in the process, some mechanics are lost that may have added flavor. that being said, you can flavor things however you want; announce that when you're mounted by legba, the 'shamanic mask' (it isn't really, it's more the fact that the spirit is visibly a spirit, even for possession spirits) includes the fact that it looks like you're walking slowly like an old man, but you somehow still move at full speed even though it doesn't look like it. *bamf* instant restoration of fluff.

Just one thing, the walking like an old man thing wasn't fluff, it was a mechanical penalty that reduced you movement to 1 meter per round.

Other that that, you bring up good points about how many pages it took to describe vodoo in Awakenings. It is about half of the book..

Take a Geas Negative Quality with the condition 1m movement rate while possessed, or rather, you cannot be possessed if moving more then 1m. Done.

And you get BP to spend!

Yeah, honestly this is something better covered by Geas. Because there are plenty of real world references to Legba where the mounted worshipper did not move around slowly. Legba was a pretty spry old geezer!

Yeah, I must admit that I don't like the new possession rules at all. It gives too many stat bonuses and Immunity to Normal Weapons is a debate that I have seen on here quite a few times already. I guess in the end I will have to live with possession as I will not be changing it in my game.

If your going to make something "Immune" to normal weapons then make it Immune, not hardened armor at double the spirits Force. So many problems.. Another chink in the ol' Shadowrun Fourth aromor.

I'm unclear, is the problem the name of the spirit power or something else?

I was going to ask the same thing, instead i'll quote your post. Also, not all possessions in 2nd edition give you penalties. Only the voudins. In short, one could get possessed by a free spirit. in such a case the character's stats would then be the following:

Strength: Original+Force
Body: Original+Force
Quickness: Original+Force
Intelligence: Force
Willpower: Force
Charisma: Force

Note, Troll + Force 8 free-spirit: (semi-random numbers used)
S: 16
B: 18
Q: 12
I: 8
W: 8
C: 8
Of course, this also includes Hardened Armor of 16.

And no, this is not technically a tradition. However, it is possible to do. And yes it is absurd (especially if you then dikote yourself ^-^). But yeah, voudins were cool in 2nd Edition. Also, one of the main reasons that I like 2nd Edition better is:

Exactly! Thanks for pointing this out. Lots of detail ftw.

Don't forget, in 2nd edition you had to spend karma every time you got mounted. That alone nixed Voodoo out of the box for me.

No, it is how it works.. If you can still affect somebody that has Immunity to Normal Weapons with Normal Weapons then it really isn't immunity is it.. It is Resistance to Normal Weapons. So yeah, it may be a problem on how it is phrased. It creates a bit of confusion. I have seen plenty of debates about this power so I know people other than me are not exactly sure what the hell it is.. Yeah, it seems like an Immunity if you get ridiculous amounts of Hardened armor but you can get around that.

Guys, I am just kind of asking for comparative purposes. I have heard some people say the new possession rules are the WORSE thing they ever put into SR4. Some people like it. I know Second edition is kind of way back there but it was what I was reading at the time just to see how it was done then. I liked some of the rules of Second Edition and it seemed that they at least took some care as to make the spirit have certain qualities and quirks.

In 4th edition it is: Add force to Physical Skills, Use Force as Mental Attributes, Can use powers of possessing Spirit. Overpowered and kind of lacks character to me. What makes A Vodoo loa different than a qabbalist's elohim? Fluff is fine but what are the mechanical differences other than they conjure different spirits. Well some different spirits. Nothing that I can see.

Thats, the whole point of 4th editions magic rules, everyone works under same mechanics.

Phrasing the power as "Armor" also leads to rules lawyering munchkinism. People then think that a Spirit's Immunity can be bypassed by a called shot because "called shots can bypass armor." Yes, I know it says the GM determines if the shot is possible, but the rules lawyers will argue that point. Even if the GM wins on that point, players will simply switch over to Stick-and-Shock rounds which automatically reduce HALF of the Spirit's armor, because that's their AP value. Thus ensues an argument that the half armor AP value is due to the effect of electricity on something that is assumed to have some flesh and a nervous system underneath that armor. This degrades into an RAI vs. RAW argument.

I would dearly love an errata to address these issues clarifying some of this stuff surrounding Immunity. As it stands, Spirits and Possession are not that scary because a runner can simply load up a weapon that is designed to not really hurt something that badly (eg. Stick-and-Shock, taser, stun baton), and easily own the spirit or possessed person.

Yeah, that Sick N Shock debate is really confusing. One one hand, it kind of makes some sense, but why does electricity hurt a spirit? I don't really think it applies for that and I would rule that it does not affect Spirits.

The electricity created by the Stick n Shock is "normal" weaponry. It comes from a physical source. I wouldn't care how much arguing the player would do, that electricity is physical and a normal weapon from a normal weapon source. It say it right in the book.

Page 295. Anniversary edition.


Unless that spirit has an allergy to electricity, there is no way in hell that it reduces the armor provided by ItNW. It even list what works on them, see the parenthesis after the italics. That is my opinion though and I am sure there are plenty of people on here that would argue against that. They did reinstate the Force of Will rules by the way. Wouldn't that apply as well and shoot down at least the stick and shock theory because you can't channel your will through a bullet.





Max - that is some of the problem with 4th edition too. While I appreciate the streamlined mechanics and unified approach, it is starting to occur to me that some things in Shadowrun need detailed explanations. This is why you have the dispute over possession, and the numerous issues with the Matrix, again (Encryption, I am looking at you), or the called shot issues, or the long shot issues, or the debate on if invisibility works to conceal a astrally projecting mage, or any of the new problems that have come up since 4th edition comes out. The possession rules are just another example of something in Shadowrun that needs a bit more detail.

That said, I enjoy 4th edition alot. Every system has problems and Shadowrun is no exception.

you apply the effects of ItNW vs stick-n-shock, which is that the critter has hardened armor vs normal attacks (including stick-n-shock). the stick-n-shock then reduces that armor, because that's what stick-n-shock does. the ability is still being applied against the stick-n-shock, in full.

and i for one find nothing thematically inappropriate in electricity harming creatures from another world more effectively than bullets would. using elemental damage vs the supernatural just flat out fits, imo, that rather than trying to stab the monster with a sword, you would try to burn it, or cause an avalanche on it, or get it to be struck by a lightning bolt. the fact that humans in the sixth world have made elemental damage relatively portable for certain types of elemental damage is irrelevant, imo.


no edition is without problems.

the disputes over possession are largely caused by people not reading the rules that are in the book.
the issues with encryption are caused by people who can't wrap their head around the fact that encryption is different in SR in order to make the game playable for deckers.
the called shot issues and long shot issues are not related to detailed explanations in any way. i will allow that they are problems that require GM discretion to solve, but they don't belong in a list of problems caused by lack of detail.
the discussions about invisibility working on astral beings generally last 3-4 posts, and don't come up very often to begin with.
the possession rules don't need more detail. they work fine, as is. they may not work the way you specifically want them to, and that's fine, but it isn't a problem with the rules, it's a problem with the rules in your game specifically.

if you want to expand on traditions (any tradition) it's a simple matter of doing some research. the mechanics do not need to be any different. the difference between a storm spirit and an air elemental does not need to be anything more than appearance. if you want to make them different, then describe them differently, have them act differently, and you can even choose different optional powers for them.

It is ironic you bring up the point of elemental damage.. When I made that post, I went to bed after. Something was bugging me about it so when I woke up, I opened my second edition book and low and behold, I see that it has a pretty cut and dry Immunity to Normal Weapons section. (If your wondering why I go to second edition before third, it is because my second edition is a softback right next to my bed. My third edition is a pdf that I would have to find and then take downstairs since my CD drives have decided to stop working on my bedroom computer. Ease of reference)

Basically, Normal weapons are double the armor, magical weapons have full effect, and elemental attacks (Which includes fire, lack of air, water, and I would assume lightning) halve the effect of ItNW. This would mean that all of the Stick n Shock people would be right in second edition. In turn, I can't see why this still doesn't apply.

I have to change my opinion on this, If elemental effects worked back in Second edition then I would have to rule that it works now. You guys realize that this also means that Possessed vessels in Shadowrun can be taken down by a high powered water cannon. Take that Rifts Vampires!

(You think I am kidding? The Second edition description literally includes water cannon as an example..)



I actually agree with you here as well. No edition is without problems. No RPG out there is without flaws. I do think that some more detail is needed in SR4 to avoid all of the damn confusion, but that is my opinion and it works well enough.

What conclusion did people come to on dumpshock about Invisibility on the Astral Plane? I ruled that it does not work since the aura of something is always present and that illusion spells can't be used to disguise or hide an aura by RAW.

This will help me sleep at night. Thank you.

Considering if you actually read the rules for Invisibility...




On the subject of ItNW - it specifically states it gives the critter Hardened Armor against non-Magical attacks. Hardened Armor specifically states that it grants an Armor rating (ballistic & impact) equal to [insert value here]. Electricity damage specifically states it is resisted with half Impact armor.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever you should have to resort to previous editions for examples.

About Invisibility: Wait, isn't that what I said?? Your right, Invisibility says that the aura is still present. The rules for Illusion spells says that you can't use them to mask or disguise an aura and that illusion on the astral are seen through by assensing.. I have seen and heard consenting arguments saying otherwise for various reasons. This just came up in my game and I ruled against Invisibility working. I was again probing Dumpshock for opinions. I know what I think about it.

About ItNW: Well I have seen my fair share of post and threads on the subject that would suggest that it is not as cut and dry as you would make it out to be. To be fair, Stick N Shock and elemental effects like fire or electricity are PHYSICAL effects, ie normal weapons. Stick N Shock is not some magic spell nor are they "magic" bullets. I don't think magic bullets exist anyway. So if it is not a magical effect then it should not work since ItNW is just that, it makes you nigh impervious to normal attacks..

The confusion has been apparent on this message board and others. By what the description of ItNW in fourth edition says, NO normal means of damage from the physical world should work. It doesn't matter if electricity is resisted by half Impact armor, it is superseded by the fact that it is a normal weapon. That is plainly written in the RAW as it say in the description that only magical effects (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers, pg 295. Anniversary edition) work on the critter with ItNW.

In second edition, it makes the description of ItNW very cut and dry and says explicitly that elemental damage does halve the effects of ItNW. I think I absolutely had a reason to refer to earlier editions, especially when they explained the power better than fourth edition.

BTW, ItNW also says that the "hardened" armor provided by ItNW adds its rating to the creatures normal armor for the damage resistance test. So what, does it now halve the complete armor rating? See, not cut and dry is it? Now that it can be referenced back to an earlier edition, you can say that you halve the Hardened armor and then add it to the total armor rating. I am sure you know the rule but for reference to what I am talking about.

Page 295, Anniversary Edition



Not cut and dry at all dude..

Oh Zormal, your welcome

his point is that the general consensus is what you have ruled.


yes. it does. that's what -half AP means, actually. and ItNW does apply in full to stick-n-shock. the fact that in full means something different depending on what it's being applied against is irrelevant. ItNW applies in full to bullets, and they get AP depending on what gun you use. ItNW applies in full to stick-n-shock, and they get to be compared against half the hardened armor. but the power was still applied in full. if it was applied at half strength, then the stick-n-shock would reduce it to 1/4 it's regular value.

It also NEVER states that ItNW stacks w/ normal worn armor! Even the critter 'armor' power has this text... "Cumulative with..." they were really good about doing that in SR4A, using the same phrase on each stacking armor source it looks.


All other sources of armor I've seen that stack have that magic phrase in them. That goes a long way towards limiting their abuse a little. (no you don't get 10 points of worn armor stacking w/ 8 points of ItNW, you have 10 points of armor of which 8 is considered hardened).

I think I am just going to stick with the rule that elemental effects halve the Immunity to Normal Weapons "Hardened" armor by half and go with it from there. It works, it makes sense and it was in second edition as such without all of the debate. It is cut and dry and simple to apply. It is actually more streamlined than Fourth Edition. Simple stuff, watch.

Normal Weapon, Double the Force of the possessing spirit
Magical Weapon, ItNW is useless
Elemental effect, just uses the regular force of the spirit.

That is so much easier to understand. Stick N Shock is an elemental effect (Electricity) and so the critter with ItNW only uses their force as Hardened armor. Since it replaces its damage for the pistol's damage anyway, this works fine. Any spirit below Force 6 can be hit all day by Stick N Shock and extra hits make it dangerous to anything higher as well. Ta-da!




Well, it does say it adds its dice to normal armor for the purpose of the damage resistance test.. It says right in the rules and I even quoted it earlier but if you missed it I shall quote it again.

Page 295, Anniversary Edition


Right there at the bottom of that quote in bold letters right from the RAW. It says that the Hardened armor rating is added to the damage resistance test as normal armor.

I would assume this to mean that you first compare the damage to the Hardened armor, with no other armor added to that value. So if an attack does 10P to a vessel possessed by a Force 6 spirit then it would do no damage saying the vessel's Hardened armor is 12.

Now if that same vessel is instead possessed by a Force 4 Spirit and hit with 10P Ballistic then it would do damage. The vessel then adds the 8 points of hardened armor to whatever armor is already present (Let's say a lined jacket (6/4)) This means add the 8 points to the 6 points of Ballistic Armor already present for a total of 14 dice to use just for the Damage resistance test. I can't see any other way of putting it. It seems to be clear about this part. You have to realize that alot of the time the critter or possessed vessel is not going to have any other armor anyway. I guess they were assuming this at least.

Now if this is what you meant, I apologize for wasting your time with this example. Of course, your game may vary and you are free to disagree with me if you want to.. I am just presenting how I see it.

There is another way to read "Additionally, this armor rating is added
to the damage resistance test as normal armor."

The option you haven;t considered is that the 12 points of hardended armour is considered as a item of armour worth 12 points. So it would stack with orthoskin and FFBA, but not with an armoured vest.

After all, it is 'as normal armour' and 'normal armour' doesn't stack.

Hmm... wouldn't it then be 'regarded as normal armor' in the test, instead of 'added'?

you're not changing anything. that's already how it works in practice, if not the exact explanation. it's not easier to understand, you're just making it harder to understand than it already was. (well, sonic may be different... i seem to recall sound bypassing full armor? every other elemental effect i can think of works like this already though).

No, because the sentence would then be not make sense - lets add regarded instead of added to sentence

"Additionally, this armor rating is regarded to the damage resistance test as normal armor."

Is a totally nonsensical statement.

Now, I'm not saying the rule as written is particularly clear about intent. I would have added something about not stacking. But you don;t get to add normal armour to a test twice, so if your ITNW is being added 'as' normal armour that would seemingly preclude the addition of actual normal armour unless that armour had an exception (like orthoskin or FFBA).

I might have written it different (I'd write "Armour from ITNW may be used in a damage resistance test instead of conventional worn armour and helmets, but stacks normally with orthoskin, FFBA and riot shields"), but I can totally see how you could write that sentence with the intention that it would be added instead of, or as normal armour - even remebering the carve out for riot shields is hard.

I was thinking more in the lines of

"Additionally, this armor rating is regarded as normal armor in the damage resistance test."

Adding armor rating to a test seems like something else to me.


But you do make a good point, as your way of reading it seems logical and balanced.
I'll have to think about it.

That regarded would still be a bit weird - it's just finished talking about how if the damage is greater than the armour, you lose the ItNW property and it's treated (regarded) as normal armour for the purpose of AP reduction.

But yeah it probably needs an FAQ. To be honest until I came here and everyone was wringing their hands about possession mages, I didn't even consider that my reading could be wrong - it could easily go either way.

Eh, I don't think it makes it harder at all.. It looks pretty simple to me.. I am not going to repeat it but it doesn't matter I guess. It makes sense to me and it works for me so you know.. It is not the explanation it gives in fourth edition at all. It doesn't even mention it in the Immunity to Normal Weapons section AT ALL. Read it again, if you see elemental effects mentioned there then I'll find a way to pay ya! Since I am reading both Anniversary and the Fourth Edition core, I think I will win.. Now it may mention that with normal armor but the armor ItNW gives is hardly normal.

That is why I said earlier that somethings in Shadowrun need more than a simple explanation. They really need to clean up alot of things in the magic section.. I think things are more confusing there then in the Matrix setting!!

I mean come on, they didn't even have the rule for attacking spirits with Force of Will (Which was the only real way to do much back in earlier editions if you were mundane). It needs a FAQ and Street Magic did only so much to clear things up.

As it is now, this is why threads like this come up all the time and a nice big thread about Stick N Shock is going on right now.

I am going to contend that when it was written, they were not even thinking that other armor would come up. Anything that would have Immunity to Normal Weapons wouldn't have additional armor anyway.. Go ahead and look at you critters section and see if you find any of them in the core that have ItNW.. You will find none. I have looked quite a few times, over multiple editions. It isn't in any of them. Why do you have a power in the book that no creature starts out with in the first place? This is why possession in earlier editions did not use this. I don't think it was meant for that. Heck, even Spirits in the core do NOT have ItNW. What critters actually have it? I know of none. So why does a spirit grant a power when it possesses something that ALL of them do not have to start out with?

It is not very clear at all.. It needs a FAQ and it need cleaned up badly..

Read the damn book.

Look up a Spirit.
Spirits have Materialization Power.

Look Up Materialization Power
"Additionally, materialized critters gain Immunity
to Normal Weapons."

Look up Immunity Power
Armor Immunity acts as Hardened Armor.

Look up Hardened Armor Power
Find rules on how hardened armor work.

Look up Possession and Inhabitation Power
They act as Materialization.


It all there. Every last bit.

Critters, of which Spirits are a subset, get a certain set of powers, which may or may not include elements of other powers.

Every spirit could have all 3 or 4 natural effects listed once each time for each spirit, or they can save a little space and for one Power describe it as having hte additional effect of some other pwoers. Less yummy other stuff to read about.

it doesn't need to mention elemental damage specifically. elemental damagealready have armor modifiers built in. ItNW grants armor. therefore, against elemental attacks, you effectively get half of your ItNW rating in most cases (as i said, i think sonic works a little different, but it's relatively rare). that isn't complicated, it just requires that you read the rules that you have available (as DireRadiant already pointed out)