Ok, two quick questions.

With the shape material spell, it says that elements or materials reshaped by the caster remain in that form when the spell ends. Wouldn't that mean that flames shaped by fire would continue to burn as long as the spell was held, even if there was nothing for it to burn?

Also, The material/element can be spread out with this power. Would this allow for the spellcaster to make the flames bigger, or would it only allow you to spread the fire along its fuel? (As in, NPC A is on fire. So, the player uses shape fire to cause the flames to get bigger.)

What would make you think that? The rules only specify what happens with the spell ends. It says nothing about allowing fire to burn without fuel. You are only altering the material's shape, not its nature. Like, what if you cast Shape (Ice) on a hot day? You could reshape the ice however you want, but it's still ice. It will start turning to water, and since you're only shaping ice not water, the amount of material you're shaping dwindles and eventually disappears. The same would be true for fire. It consumes all the fuel it has, and then it goes away, no matter what form you shape it into. The spell allows you to alter shape only, there is not one word in the text that allows you to magically sustain a material that would otherwise burn out or melt.



I'd say that yes, you can probably make it bigger. It would be smaller at first when you spread it out, since you're taking the same amount of fire and covering a larger area with it. But once the additional fuel caught, the fire would become bigger than ever. For simplicity's sake, I'd say that things just catch fire per normal, and the things already burning take the same damage they were already taking, since it's too hard to figure out the reduced strength of the blaze based on spreading it magically.

There are several reasons.

1. The text indicates that prior to the spell ending, the material was held in its form by the spell.

2. You're supposed to be able to be moved and shaped 'in any way the caster desires'. That doesn't happen if the fire dies every time you try to shape it.

3. I really hate to have to create an 'improved shape fire' spell that does what shaped fire should do, but doesn't because it sucks.



Interesting. Because if the spell could not sustain the fire, I would rule that it could not be made bigger. Only smaller.

In order for a fire to burn, its fuel has to be heated up. If the fire can't heat the fuel up to the proper burning point, the fire dies. It would only work on highly flammable materials which would have to be so close to the fire that shape fire would become pointless. The only advantage to shape fire would be that you could cause the fire to burn into the wind or down towards the ground.

So, what good is shape fire if it can't shape fire?

Once the spell effect ends, the element is again subject to the laws of physics. Nothing unusual about that: a bridge or earth that can't support itself would crumble, a pillar of water would collapse, a pocket of air held under water would break into one or more bubbles as it ascended to the surface. In cases where the structure can sustain itself, the changes can be long lasting or permanent: shaping a stone outcrop and it could remain until erosion takes its toll.

As far as shaping fire goes, flame has a volume as much as anything else - the spell allows you to change the shape and area of a flame, but the ultimate volume should remain the same. This can be useful for any number of purposes. Once the spell ends, physics take over again - in all likelihood, the parts of the flame farthest from the source would quickly cease because a normal fire would not support a flame out to that extant.

Case in point: a fire adept sits in front of a candle, and casts the shape fire spell on the candle flame. The adept causes the thin flame to rise up into a column that rises six inches above the burning wick, then twist upon itself sinuously in the shape of a Q floating before him, the tail still attached to the wick. When he releases the spell, the flaming Q almost immediately ceases, leaving the candle flame burning at the same height as before.

It holds the material in a particular form, but not a particular condition. By your logic, it makes materials invincible, you could hold your fire in its current "form" even though you put it inside a vacuum chamber with no air, or you could hold shaped ice in its current "form" even if you put it inside a blast furnace. Hell, you could make an invincible wall out of sand because nothing could penetrate the sand without making it lose its "form." No, I think it's pretty clear that the material retains its normal properties, the only thing you control is shape.



You can only shape things as you desire if they actually exist. Fire without fuel is not a tangible thing that can be picked up and carried around -- fire is a chemical reaction which burns fuel + O2, and releases CO2 and heat. Without fuel or O2, the fire doesn't exist in the first place for you to shape it. You can shape an existing, burning fire as you desire, but you cannot change the laws of physics and keep a fire burning without fuel. That's like saying you can shape ice inside of a blast furnace because you "desire" for that to happen. I don't think so.



Shape fire has a number of uses specifically detailed in the spell -- you can extinguish a fire, and you can create a path through fire. In fact, you can do lots and lots of things with fire, as long as it's an actual fire, i.e. it has fuel. You could make a ring of fire to trap someone, a wall of fire to block off your enemies, you could start a fire that you shape to avoid setting civilians on fire... The point is, it has to be fire that you're shaping, not a burnt-out nothing. It isn't a spell that lets you create or sustain fire, it only lets you shape fire that already exists. I'm not sure what that's such a big deal for you, is it that hard to start a fire? Find something that burns, light it, and then shape it. An Improved Shape Fire that created magical fire without fuel would give beastly drain, like combining the Fireball spell with Shape Fire. Not nice to cast...



What would that ruling be based on? The spell EXPLICITLY says that you can "spread" the material. You can spread a fire, and this would make it smaller, though more spread out. Then, however, it would catch more fuel and become bigger. Not because you shaped it to be bigger, but because it is fire and it burns things. You did not increase the size, you only spread it around so it would catch more fuel. The spell never sustains the fire, it is always sustained by fuel and oxygen, and nothing else. No matter how you shape it, it's still fire.



You'd better check the SR4 rules for fire and not make up your own rules at random. The fire has a DV, and objects resist being set on fire by rolling armor x2, or just armor if they are more flammable. Yes, you'd probably lower the fire's DV by spreading it out with Shape Fire, but if it catches some fuel, it could start to grow and its DV would increase. Though TBH, I'm not sure why you'd care so much about spreading fire -- fire does that by itself, just by setting multiple things on fire pretty soon you'll have a whole burning building. Using magic to spread fire is like using a lightsaber to cut your meat, you're using a highly advanced tool to do something that cavemen could do, and without really increasing the task's efficiency.



That's a bullcrap rhetorical question if I've ever heard one. It doesn't matter what good it is if it can't shape fire, because it CAN. Take an existing fire that's already burning and has some kind of fuel source, and then shape it. Make a path through it so you don't burn to death, or make it flow across the floor and burn your enemies. Regardless, it doesn't matter what good it is, you can't just make up rules. Your shaped fire is not uber immortal fire, it can't burn without fuel, it can't survive hurricane force winds, it can't survive being doused by halon gas. You shape, you don't create or sustain. How much simpler can it get?

Yes, but the question is that what happens in the meantime. Which laws of physics apply? Does that mean the adept could cause the fire to move from the candle to a glass (which provides no fuel) and have it burn inside the glass until the spell was released?



No, my logic states that the spell provides everything that is needed to shape the substance in question. In the case of shape water, it needs to resist gravity and the natural bond between water molecules. (After all, water naturally wants to form into a ball.) In the case of the fire, it would need to provide any necessary fuel so it could hold its shape. Once the spell was lifted, the flames would go out or burn on by natural physics. Just as water that was shaped into a statue would splatter onto the ground.




I'm trying to do combinations with other spells. Light lighting a candle with ignite, and then use shape fire to create a flame man who jumps off the candle and walks around. I don't want to use shape fire to create the fire that I shap into the man, I just don't want him to die just because he jumps off the candle.

It's also a rather difficult task to trap someone with flames unless they're standing on something that burns. Unless, of course, shape fire can sustain the fire.




It's based on what the book says. You can't change the volume of the fire. If the only thing to sustain the fire is fuel, and new fuel must catch fire. Moved fire would only have one instant to catch the new fuel on fire. If it fails, then the fire dies. If it suceeds, then the fire would shrink to fit the amount sustainable by the new fuel.




I did. I'd like to point out that all of those require GM discretion about what needs a roll and what doesn't. Paper probably wouldn't need a roll, and would start burning. Plasteel might not need a roll either, but it wouldn't burn. Everything requires GM discretion to determine whether or not it would or wouldn't burn.

Let's just say that I have the tightest tightwad of GMs, and leave it at that.



Except what I'm facing is a spell that can only make dancing figures in a campfire. It can only move or flow across a substance that it could instantly catch fire. Otherwise it either dies out, or dwindles to little flames by the time it reaches the subject. I'd be better off using my ignite spell on the ground, if it didn't take so long to get something to burn.

I don't want immortal fire. I just want fire that doesn't die if it turns into a little flame man, and runs around on the pavement.

The spell doesn't change the essential nature of the material, so an interruption in the source would cause the flame to wink out unless there's more fuel and oxidizer around. If you did try to move a flame away from its fuel source without providing another one, it would quickly exhaust whatever fuel was in the flame and go out.

Say that we had our fire adept at a little book burning party, watching a bunch of hippy shamans toss copies of the Clavicle of Solomon into a bonfire. Ms. Fire Adept shakes out a nicstick, casts Shape Flame, and winds a snaky tendril of flame from the burning paper to the tip of her ciggy. A desperate mage comes running out with a blister pack and tosses it on the fire; a gentle "whumpf" of chemical snuffing agent billows out and the flame that the fire adept was manipulating dies immediately. The tiny flame tendril winks out as the fire feeding it does. Ms. Fire Adept takes a deep breath and watches the charcoal at the end of the ciggy blaze to life a bit, a tiny thread of fire spiraling out from the tip.

Sadly, that's what I was afraid of. Well, Improved shape fire, here I come...

Shape fire is nothing really usefull, but it's a very stylish way to show your power.

Nope, it would burn out.



You change the shape ONLY. So yes, the substance resists gravity and can bend into weird shapes. But that's it. It never says anything about changing the nature of the substance. Shaped ice still melts, and shaped fire still burns out. Anything to the contrary is a house rule. You haven't ever responded to the ice thing -- if you think you can sustain fire without fuel, do you also think you could sustain ice inside of a blast furnace?



Again, you can't shape something that's not there. Fire cut off from O2 or fuel is not fire, it's nothing, so you can't shape it.



Yes, you're right. You can't surround someone with fire unless they're standing on something that burns. What a shock!



Again, you don't seem to understand that the spell never changes the nature of fire. If fed more fuel, it grows, because that's how fire works. The spell does not allow you to increase the volume, but the fire can increase the volume by itself if you spread it. That wouldn't be you making it bigger, it would be growing naturally. You could prevent it from growing naturally if you wanted, but spreading it to more fuel sources would only make it shrink for a short time before the additional fuel allowed it to grow. If fire shrank by spreading to more fuel, buildings would never burn down...



That would be a knockout drain code to do something of highly questionable value...

Force 1 Fire-Elemental?