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Mx
QUOTE (Runners Companion page.98)
Linguist
Cost: 5 BP
A character with this quality has a natural gift for learning
and understanding languages, grasping vocabulary and grammar
much more quickly than others would. This quality halves the
basic learning time for a language and modifies the rating of any
Language skill the character possesses by +2.

Becouse it doesn't say so, am i right in assuming that +2 isn't limited by modified skill maximums?
Kev
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 3 2009, 12:06 PM) *
Becouse it doesn't say so, am i right in assuming that +2 isn't limited by modified skill maximums?


Looks like that +2, as states in the example, affects the skill rating itself so yeah, it's susceptible to the skill cap.
Kerenshara
The maximum rating for a language, I thought, was 6. It's not actually a knowledge skill. The only thing higher than a 6, IIRC, is N, or Native/Natural speaker. It's not uses in typical skill checks, but it IS a limit on other skills though in the social branch, so maybe it should be opened up.

Ok, looked at another way: adept powers only affect active skills, as do things like reflex recorders. The only reason to have a language over 6 would be because you don't want to cap your social skills if you're a "speaker's way" adept.

I don't see why it would be subject to any normal caps, and since the "adjusted maximum" would be 9, they don't have to tell you it can't exceed that cap, either because there's no way to pump it EITHER except by this quality.

OK, now that I have rambled on, the short version should be: yes, I see no reason you can't get a language up to 8 with the Linguist quality.
Mx
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 3 2009, 08:57 PM) *
The maximum rating for a language, I thought, was 6. It's not actually a knowledge skill. The only thing higher than a 6, IIRC, is N, or Native/Natural speaker. It's not uses in typical skill checks, but it IS a limit on other skills though in the social branch, so maybe it should be opened up.

Ok, looked at another way: adept powers only affect active skills, as do things like reflex recorders. The only reason to have a language over 6 would be because you don't want to cap your social skills if you're a "speaker's way" adept.

I don't see why it would be subject to any normal caps, and since the "adjusted maximum" would be 9, they don't have to tell you it can't exceed that cap, either because there's no way to pump it EITHER except by this quality.

OK, now that I have rambled on, the short version should be: yes, I see no reason you can't get a language up to 8 with the Linguist quality.

Not exactly what i was asking, Modifed skill cap is 1.5 times the current skill, so i was asking more if it raises a rating 1 to 3 and 2 to 4 or just 1 to 2 and 2 to 3.

QUOTE (Kev @ Jun 3 2009, 08:43 PM) *
Looks like that +2, as states in the example, affects the skill rating itself so yeah, it's susceptible to the skill cap.

Thats what i assumed at first, but many other qualities that modify skill ratings mention that it's limited by modified skill maximums, this one doesn't so it got me wondering if it's ment to be limited.
Ryu
The quality modifies the skill rating, and modified skill is capped at 1.5*natural skill. So you have skill 1 +0, skill 2-3 +1, skill 4+ +2 (baring other skill modifiers already present). You learn faster (much), but you still have to learn.
Kerenshara
OOOOooooooh, I see what you're getting at.

If it IS succeptable to that skill cap, then it's useless for all intents and purposes, because to get full benefit of the ability, you have to buy the skill up to 4 in the first place.

Let's instead use the "School of Hard Knocks", "College Education" and "Technical School Education" as the template, rather than the adept magical abilities: those items modify the base skill but can not push it higher than 6 total, meaning they do NOT push it over max like an "enhancement". Using that as a model, and the basic description of the ability itself as well as the fluff about languages, I would say it just gives you the +2 regardles.

You are good with languages. In the time and effort a normal person spends learning the rudiments of a language (Rank 1) you achieve functional fluency (Rank 3). You will still have problems with complex issues, and bear an accent until you put in as much effort as a normal person invests to get to familiarity (Rank 2) or that same functional fluency (Rank 3) whereupon you will be fully fluent, have nearly no accent and grasp all but the most technical and esoteric minutae.

Anyhow, that's my take on the thing, given what you were really asking.
Ryu
QUOTE ("SR4 Errata 1.8")
p. 109 Skill Ratings (First paragraph)
The paragraph should read:
“The unmodified skill rating assigned at character creation
or purchased during game play is considered to be the
character’s base skill rating. Some abilities and implants (as
noted) may increase this rating, creating a modified skill rating.
A modified skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x 1.5 (making
9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the Aptitude
quality). Specializations, spells, and other implants may provide
bonus dice to a skill, but do not change the base skill rating.
These extra dice are listed in parentheses after the base
skill, as in Spellcasting 4 (+2).?


Unless the above changed with SR4A, all modified skill ratings are subject to the 1.5*natural cap, even those additionally capped at 6. (FYI; You can of course do what you want at your table.)
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Ryu @ Jun 3 2009, 03:31 PM) *
Unless the above changed with SR4A, all modified skill ratings are subject to the 1.5*natural cap, even those additionally capped at 6. (FYI; You can of course do what you want at your table.)

Thanks for the cite. I still think those abilities are possibly in error... but I am suddenly also remembering another ability - catlike where it notes you still have to take two levels in the skill to benefit from the ability. Hmmm... but does that mean the three I cited are useless below relevant knowledge skill 2? Ick.
Morphius
Hrm...as a GM, I'd rule that Linguist is unaffected by the 1.5 times skill rating cap. Yes, I know what the rules say, but seriously, otherwise it's completely useless.

That being said, if you feel you HAVE to do something, make it a 1-for-1. If a character has a language at 1, then they only get a +1 from Linguist. If they have it at 2 or higher, they get the full benefit.
HappyDaze
First, I've made a blanket houserule that in ALL cases of rounding to a whole number, you use common rounding (so .5 rounds up). This means that odd initial values raised to 150% will round up. This applies to everything, including Attribute and Skill maximums.

With this in mind, the Linguist quality gets only half value for languages at rating 1 and 2 and full value at rating 3+. That's really not so bad for only 10 karma, especially if you have several languages.
hobgoblin
i could have sworn that sr4 states that i all cases of rounding, round up...
HappyDaze
No. By RAW, some round up and others round down. Drain says to round down, melee danage rounds half Strength up, others vary as well. I opted to just make it a blanket rule of 'round up' and it's never been an issue. Sure, Drain is a bit harder at odd Force, but Drains's never been too hard on magicians from what I've seen.
Falconer
Actually language does do one very important thing.

It caps skill when using social skills. Yes, you have a negotiation skill of 9... BUT you're speaking in german... so you only get 3 dice.

As far as the quality... it's worthless if it's not a straight +2. Again you practically never roll it, it simply raises your skill cap on other social skills op to a maximum of 6. (also I'd rule it doesn't work with lingua softs)
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 4 2009, 12:18 AM) *
Actually language does do one very important thing.

It caps skill when using social skills. Yes, you have a negotiation skill of 9... BUT you're speaking in german... so you only get 3 dice.

As far as the quality... it's worthless if it's not a straight +2. Again you practically never roll it, it simply raises your skill cap on other social skills op to a maximum of 6. (also I'd rule it doesn't work with lingua softs)

I know I mentioned the first part already above; I agree fundamentally on the second; Regarding any kind of 'soft whatsoever, they always COMPLETELY overwrite (that's a quote, either BBB or Unwired, I can't remember and it's too late to go fishing) the user's own skills/memories, meaning that since the quality modifies YOUR skill, it is ignored by the 'soft.
ShadowPavement
Hmmm.....I think I need to make a physAd with this Quality and the Linguistics adept ability. Unlimited languages hee hee.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 3 2009, 09:18 PM) *
Actually language does do one very important thing.

It caps skill when using social skills. Yes, you have a negotiation skill of 9... BUT you're speaking in german... so you only get 3 dice.

As far as the quality... it's worthless if it's not a straight +2. Again you practically never roll it, it simply raises your skill cap on other social skills op to a maximum of 6. (also I'd rule it doesn't work with lingua softs)



I was always under the impression that it capped HITS based upon your language rating... not dice.
And I agree with the second point completely
Kingboy
QUOTE (ShadowPavement @ Jun 5 2009, 08:47 PM) *
Hmmm.....I think I need to make a physAd with this Quality and the Linguistics adept ability. Unlimited languages hee hee.


Well, not exactly unlimited, a least not without some effort (but then again, the same can be said for contacts). And only up to skill 1 (plus the bonus) without spending karma. But yes it's a bordering-on-cheesy combo that it's best not to annoy the GM with overly much. Personally, I don't bother trying to learn more than one new language during the downtime between missions unless there is a really good story reason to do so (say, you need to learn Russian in a hurry because you just pissed in the Vory's Soy-os and don't want to get caught off guard--not that I'd know anything about that smile.gif ).

Now if every Adept out there took the combo, I'd get quite annoyed with it as a GM. I feel somewhat justified taking it as a player with my current character because he's a Social Mystic Adept so:
  1. it fits thematically, and
  2. Mystic Adepts are such karma whores that I can use a little cheap boost to keep in the game, skill wise.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Kingboy @ Jun 6 2009, 10:59 AM) *
Well, not exactly unlimited, a least not without some effort (but then again, the same can be said for contacts). And only up to skill 1 (plus the bonus) without spending karma. But yes it's a bordering-on-cheesy combo that it's best not to annoy the GM with overly much. Personally, I don't bother trying to learn more than one new language during the downtime between missions unless there is a really good story reason to do so (say, you need to learn Russian in a hurry because you just pissed in the Vory's Soy-os and don't want to get caught off guard--not that I'd know anything about that smile.gif ).

Now if every Adept out there took the combo, I'd get quite annoyed with it as a GM. I feel somewhat justified taking it as a player with my current character because he's a Social Mystic Adept so:
  1. it fits thematically, and
  2. Mystic Adepts are such karma whores that I can use a little cheap boost to keep in the game, skill wise.



But Really... You can buy Linguasofts fairly cheaply, and I have yet to play in a game (ANY GAME, SR not withstanding) that knowing a language broke the gameplay for anyone... Languages let you interact, without it, well, kinda boring I would say...
Rotbart van Dainig
Given that Social Skills are capped by Language Skills, it's a pretty useful Quality for Social Adepts to have.
Kingboy
True, accumulating (free) language skills is not likely to throw off most campaigns, and in some cases could make them more interesting and varied. I'd still give a raised eyebrow to the Warrior's Way Adept who came to my table (were I running the game) with this combo that didn't have a good character background reason for having it. cyber.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Kingboy @ Jun 6 2009, 11:21 AM) *
True, accumulating (free) language skills is not likely to throw off most campaigns, and in some cases could make them more interesting and varied. I'd still give a raised eyebrow to the Warrior's Way Adept who came to my table (were I running the game) with this combo that didn't have a good character background reason for having it. cyber.gif



Even without the Adept ability though, languages are only 2 karma for the initial point of the language... combined with linguist, that is still a massive number of languages available for minimal expenditure... expecially if you used some of your knowledge skill points to pick up several languages to start with...
Windling
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 3 2009, 10:18 PM) *
Actually language does do one very important thing.

It caps skill when using social skills. Yes, you have a negotiation skill of 9... BUT you're speaking in german... so you only get 3 dice.

As far as the quality... it's worthless if it's not a straight +2. Again you practically never roll it, it simply raises your skill cap on other social skills op to a maximum of 6. (also I'd rule it doesn't work with lingua softs)


I know this isn't core, but in one of the published adventures for 4th it explained if you had a character who was CHR 5, Negotiation 4 and they were trying to negotiate in Spanish with a spanish of 3 they would roll CHR 5 + Negotiation 3 for a pool of 8 dice. According to the adventure's example only the skill's dice were capped, not the attributes. I thought when I was reading it that it seemed pretty different from my understanding from reading core. Made me wonder if the rule had changed at some point and one was either a remenant or a clarification....
Falconer
Windling... a social adept WILL have a 6(9) rating in negotiation more often than not. I was not even looking at the attribute when I wrote that. But you have it exactly right, it's in the original BBB and the SR4A printing.

9 dice is not to be laughed out in his native tongue... but outside of his native tongue he can be limited quite easily.

Really, the language used to write a contract is quite important. In Japan for example... japaneses built in ambiguities and imprecision can be quite a problem at times. And understanding these fine points can be important.

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