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Machiavelli
I was wondering where exactly the difference is. Basically every spirit is free and hangs out in his metaplane until called. But what are they doing in the meantime? Aren´t they capable to meet our world until called? Is the only difference between a summoned and a free spirit, that the second one broke free from the power of his summoner?
knasser
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 13 2009, 09:58 AM) *
I was wondering where exactly the difference is. Basically every spirit is free and hangs out in his metaplane until called. But what are they doing in the meantime? Aren´t they capable to meet our world until called? Is the only difference between a summoned and a free spirit, that the second one broke free from the power of his summoner?


I don't think there is a definite answer. There are cannon hints and suggestions that summoned spirits are pre-existing free entities in their own metaplane (though there are also very heavy suggestions in cannon that spirits are shaped physically and mentally by their summoner's beliefs and I don't know quite how you reconcile the two). One tantalising implication in Street Magic however, is that Free Spirits are just normal spirits but that they have a growing interest / attachment to our own world, reflected in their accumulation of karma (and subsequent spending of it). Thus as they become more immersed and integrated into our world, they grow more powerful by our standards.

The passage I found is as follows:
QUOTE (SM @ pg. 106)
Free spirits are not native to the physical plane, and must rely on legitimate resi-
dents of the physical world for karmic handouts if they want to
become firmly established.
Ironically, a free spirit is in some ways
even more dependent upon metahumanity than it was when it
had a metahuman master.


You could take that to say that Free Spirits are merely spirits with more of a work visa than a temporary residence. Spirits that become Free by breaking control from their master could perhaps get their first link to our world through the Binding process. But I wouldn't rule out spirits coming here under their own power as well. And if they did so, and wished to stick around, then they would be either Free Spirits or Wild Spirits. Don't forget the Wild spirits. Wild Spirits are treated as Free spirits but explicitly do not have to have a formula (SM, pg. 110). If you want to say that having a formula is a product of having been brought to this world through summoning, then I'd be inclined to have voluntary visitors be treated as Wild Spirits. That gives them the uniqueness that you get with the Free Spirit rules, but they're still closer to Summoned spirits in some ways than they are Free spirits. At least if you choose to flavour them that way.

For the most part, I just say that spirits are a diverse lot and some are represented by Free Spirit rules and some are not. A summoned water sprite and a Free sea spirit probably have more in common with each other in my game than a Free fire spirit does with that same Free sea spirit, even though both use the Free spirit rules.
Machiavelli
Thanks
HappyDaze
A free spirit has an experience that other spirits lack. The act of becoming free grants it a true name (spirit formula) that gives it lasting ties to this world. The effect is that free spirits are 'citizens' of the sixth world while other spirits are basically just using green cards. This has both good and bad effects on the spirit as noted in the rules.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
That is an interesting way of explaining it... I think that I like that...
Kerenshara
knasser, I am impressed by the depth of consideration that went into your response, and I think it's an excellent framework for somebody who's looking for a basis to begin building their own spirit world for their own campaign or mindset for a summoning magician. Thank you, and kudos. I am not sure I agree with all of it, of course, but it hangs well together as a whole, so that's admirable in its own right; Enough so that I want to go back and rethink how I look at spirits myself a bit, if nothing else than to make sure I'm confident in my own assumptions and beliefs.
knasser
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 13 2009, 08:54 PM) *
knasser, I am impressed by the depth of consideration that went into your response, and I think it's an excellent framework for somebody who's looking for a basis to begin building their own spirit world for their own campaign or mindset for a summoning magician. Thank you, and kudos. I am not sure I agree with all of it, of course, but it hangs well together as a whole, so that's admirable in its own right; Enough so that I want to go back and rethink how I look at spirits myself a bit, if nothing else than to make sure I'm confident in my own assumptions and beliefs.


You're welcome and thank you in return. And you'd be terribly dull if you agreed with everything I said. wink.gif

I'd be interested to see whatever take you end up with post re-examination too. Ideas are bred from the mixing of previous ideas. It's healthy to keep the process going. smile.gif

Peace,

Khadim.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (knasser @ Jun 13 2009, 05:02 PM) *
You're welcome and thank you in return. And you'd be terribly dull if you agreed with everything I said. wink.gif

I'd be interested to see whatever take you end up with post re-examination too. Ideas are bred from the mixing of previous ideas. It's healthy to keep the process going. smile.gif

Peace,

Khadim.

Emphasis mine.

Bless you. That's a sentiment that has become all too lost in our culture, I feel. I am still trying to work it out, but I want to take time with the reply, rather than slapping it together on-the-fly.
knasser
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 13 2009, 10:07 PM) *
Emphasis mine.

Bless you. That's a sentiment that has become all too lost in our culture, I feel. I am still trying to work it out, but I want to take time with the reply, rather than slapping it together on-the-fly.


smile.gif

I'll still be interested when is done. Promise!

K.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (knasser @ Jun 13 2009, 08:27 PM) *
I don't think there is a definite answer. There are cannon hints and suggestions that summoned spirits are pre-existing free entities in their own metaplane (though there are also very heavy suggestions in cannon that spirits are shaped physically and mentally by their summoner's beliefs and I don't know quite how you reconcile the two). One tantalising implication in Street Magic however, is that Free Spirits are just normal spirits but that they have a growing interest / attachment to our own world, reflected in their accumulation of karma (and subsequent spending of it). Thus as they become more immersed and integrated into our world, they grow more powerful by our standards.

The passage I found is as follows:


You could take that to say that Free Spirits are merely spirits with more of a work visa than a temporary residence. Spirits that become Free by breaking control from their master could perhaps get their first link to our world through the Binding process. But I wouldn't rule out spirits coming here under their own power as well. And if they did so, and wished to stick around, then they would be either Free Spirits or Wild Spirits. Don't forget the Wild spirits. Wild Spirits are treated as Free spirits but explicitly do not have to have a formula (SM, pg. 110). If you want to say that having a formula is a product of having been brought to this world through summoning, then I'd be inclined to have voluntary visitors be treated as Wild Spirits. That gives them the uniqueness that you get with the Free Spirit rules, but they're still closer to Summoned spirits in some ways than they are Free spirits. At least if you choose to flavour them that way.

For the most part, I just say that spirits are a diverse lot and some are represented by Free Spirit rules and some are not. A summoned water sprite and a Free sea spirit probably have more in common with each other in my game than a Free fire spirit does with that same Free sea spirit, even though both use the Free spirit rules.


I've always thought of it as that a free spirit has broken away from the rules of its archetype in a manner defined by its formula.
Kerenshara
I told you I wanted to take my time crafting a response, and as promised, here it is:

QUOTE (knasser @ Jun 13 2009, 05:27 AM) *
I don't think there is a definite answer. There are cannon hints and suggestions that summoned spirits are pre-existing free entities in their own metaplane (though there are also very heavy suggestions in cannon that spirits are shaped physically and mentally by their summoner's beliefs and I don't know quite how you reconcile the two). One tantalising implication in Street Magic however, is that Free Spirits are just normal spirits but that they have a growing interest / attachment to our own world, reflected in their accumulation of karma (and subsequent spending of it). Thus as they become more immersed and integrated into our world, they grow more powerful by our standards.


OK, I tend to kind of split this down the middle myself. I see a metaplane as a seething pool of formless but not undifferentiated energy. Call it a chaotic swarm of proto-sapient Purpose(s) awaiting direction and coalescence. When a magician “summons� a spirit, she is in effect reaching into this pool of entities and drawing one of them and the appropriate amount of the aspected energy of the metaplane itself down and through the lens of their conscious and subconscious perception and manipulations, giving form to that energy and Purpose. Put another way, the plane itself is the energy, the “spirits� the consciousness that embodies the common characteristics of the denizens of that realm, the amount of energy imbued into the consciousness by the magician is what we would call force, and the form and idiosyncratic powers the spirit takes on are based on what and how the magician believes the spirit SHOULD be and needs it TO be. That is why a shamanic spirit of the land would appear completely different when manifested from a hermetic earth elemental, and each might have different optional powers, even though they are from the same place and represent the same elemental energy and mana paterns.



Free Spirits are inherently bound to this plane by their Spell Formula. Free Spirits arrived upon this plane of existence by varied means, but for their own reasons, have chosen to remain. They have no innate ability to grow or change beyond the limitations imposed on them by the magician that first brought them in; But the conscious independent energy represented by the game mechanic of Karma allows them to slowly shape themselves, essentially allowing them to duplicate some aspects of the subconscious lensing of the Awakened (meta)human mind. With enough Karma, they could conceivably dramatically expand upon the limits initially imposed upon them, but can not alter their fundamental nature, as their energy is unchanged, nor can they remove aspects already embedded within them upon their initial coalescence on this plane. It is this adaptation that in essence gives them their greater anchor to the Material Plane.



QUOTE
You could take that to say that Free Spirits are merely spirits with more of a work visa than a temporary residence. Spirits that become Free by breaking control from their master could perhaps get their first link to our world through the Binding process. But I wouldn't rule out spirits coming here under their own power as well. And if they did so, and wished to stick around, then they would be either Free Spirits or Wild Spirits. Don't forget the Wild spirits. Wild Spirits are treated as Free spirits but explicitly do not have to have a formula (SM, pg. 110). If you want to say that having a formula is a product of having been brought to this world through summoning, then I'd be inclined to have voluntary visitors be treated as Wild Spirits. That gives them the uniqueness that you get with the Free Spirit rules, but they're still closer to Summoned spirits in some ways than they are Free spirits. At least if you choose to flavour them that way.


I like your take on Wild Spirits having arriving voluntarily. Understandably, though, their reasoning and logic should probably be even MORE alien to us than even a Free Spirit. In my above description, I would say that they were a purpose that became so strong that it was able to create for itself a form about which it coalesced, and that act granted it the ability to cross the barrier between the planes. In fact, I think I like that even better: the coalescence of summoning takes place on the home metaplane and that “form� is what allows ANY spirit to cross over, but Wild Spirits gain the “form� as a consequence of their own unusually powerful Purpose.



QUOTE
For the most part, I just say that spirits are a diverse lot and some are represented by Free Spirit rules and some are not. A summoned water sprite and a Free sea spirit probably have more in common with each other in my game than a Free fire spirit does with that same Free sea spirit, even though both use the Free spirit rules.

Absolutely, and if you were to look at my above statements, you will see why I think you’re exactly right.



As an aside, in reference to another thread that got WAY off the OP, I DO believe that those proto-sapient essences can and DO communicate amongst one another, and that through that communication have approximately as much idea of what our plane may be like as we do from the reports of magicians who have returned from meta-planar excursions. So if your magician mistreats spirits of a given type, I see it as likely they would all realize it eventually; Imagine the difficulties, with this proposed model, if your outstanding (for good or ill) treatment of spirits were to help a purpose draw sufficient form to respond to your calling one day, bringing it’s own idea about how much of it’s native plane’s energy (Force) it should embody and just how it should relate to you on manifestation? A Wild Spirit aligned with your own goals and friendly to you could be a powerful ally; A Wild Spirit whose purpose solidified around a core of vengeance and anger could be your most deadly enemy.

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