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Kerenshara
As I have mentioned about Kerenshara numerous times, she is a 3rd generation shadowrunner. One huge question asked of every 'runner (at creation) is "how did you fall into shadow?" Well, a "legacy" of shadowrunner parent(s) would have been BORN into shadow, so how would that affect their outlook?

My question is: Has anybody else played with this idea, even if only in concept? What kind of ideas have occured to you? I'm not looking for Crunch & Munch, here, just fluff text about their personality, outlook and specialization(s).
Mirilion
This is very interesting. I have never thought about it before, but here are my two nuyen

First, the child's outlook will depend on their parent's view of their lifestyle, and on the amound of care, love and education they got. Most of us would like to think that criminals and outlaws would at least try to give their child a chance at a better life. I guess some shadowrunners are like that, handing out their child for adoption, and keeping tabs on her, or maybe even reforming and living life as an honest citizen from that point.

Those shadowrunners who view the mundane, corporate life as a vile cancer, would see their life as a life worth living, and teach their child everything there is to know about the shadows. I can easily imagine a hacker parent introducing their child to VR step by step at a very young age, knowing very well that the teachings of an expert hacker are much better than the child frying her brain by mistake when hacking in the forbidden and exciting full sim at age 15 or so. A street samurai holding his son's hands as he teaches him to shoot, and so on. If the child of such a shadowrunner undergoes UGE at puberty, I imagine there's a better chance of the parent NOT freaking out and kicking him out, than with an average corp wageslave. You could have an ork growing among his multi-racial team, actually quite different than the "ethnic" ork living in ork families.

If the parent shadowrunners are a closely knit team, their offspring might form some sort of shadowrunning clan, a bit like a gang or organized crime family, but dealing in shadowruns instead of various criminal enterprises. I imagine the grandchildren of such runner to be quite sure of themselves and their skills and identity, thinking of the rest of the corporate world as inferior, or at least blind.

On the other hand, the child of such a dedicated shadowrunner might grow to hate her parents, perhaps subconciously, for choosing such a hard life for her, denying her all the comforts of a safe home among the blind masses.

Through all this I assume that the parent shadowrunner actually loves his child and treats him as a "vanilla" parent treats his child. Many parent-child relationships aren't as ideal. The child of abusive, violent shadowrunners who are forced to follow their parent's footsteps, for example, might grow up to become shadowrunners, but with some very serious psychological issues, and none of the pride and familial feelings towards others of his generation described above. The same for the children of detached hackers and magicians devoting most of their time to their crafts. I don't even want to get into the darker things, such as magicians attempting to sacrifice their children for some dark initiation rites, and whatnot.
Marshwiggle
I've never played a 2nd or 3rd generation runner, but I've thought about it. First off, lots of runners have (either in game or in backstory) a period of time where they are picking up the tricks of the trade, where they are newbies, where they are figuring out where to step and where not to step. A 2nd generation runner would have some of that, but a lot of the basic outlook and skillset that lets a runner survive they are going to have picked up the (comparatively) easy way of watching their parents. Similarly for the adoption of a particular brand of morality and ethics (roughly what means you're willing to use, and what behavior is necessary to maintain professionalism) - kid already part of the shadows from birth is going to have a lot of that from an early age.

However, while those options for character growth are perhaps a little less likely, the whole coming of age and proving yourself thing I can definitely see coming to the fore. Sure, every runner has heard of much more impressive runners and has something to prove to him or herself, but having parents who will understand what you do and who you care what they think, really could up the emotional resonance of a lot of 'proving yourself' themes.

Either one of the dynamics in the above two paragraphs would, I think, push 2nd generation shadowrunners to be more careful in putting together plans in advance.

Here's one big question I've got for people - would a shadowrunner's kid trust his or her parents? Overall, I'm thinking that runners would likely be emotionally guarded with their kids (if only because they would have lots of stuff they couldn't or didn't want to talk about with their kids).

Lastly, lots of runners have some reason they can't just be part of the usual corp program, some reason they have to be in the shadows. The reason for a runner's kid is more subtle than the usual reason - they are culturally conditioned to the shadows, and against the rest of the world, and they might not fit so well into the rest of the world, or they might not like fitting in. That is subtle enough to be difficult to roleplay well without, well, being unsubtle about it.

Anyway, I don't mean that all this stuff happens with every runner's children, these are just my thoughts on what often happens.
Mirilion
Marshwiggle, now I keep imagining shadowrunning clan kiddies being given their first real run at age 18, by their parents, after only using their various skills in local or minor issues so far.
A milk run, but still, something can always go wrong. Would parents do that ?
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Mirilion @ Jun 13 2009, 06:30 PM) *
First, the child's outlook will depend on their parent's view of their lifestyle, and on the amound of care, love and education they got.
*snip*
Those shadowrunners who view the mundane, corporate life as a vile cancer, would see their life as a life worth living, and teach their child everything there is to know about the shadows. I can easily imagine a hacker parent introducing their child to VR step by step at a very young age, knowing very well that the teachings of an expert hacker are much better than the child frying her brain by mistake when hacking in the forbidden and exciting full sim at age 15 or so. A street samurai holding his son's hands as he teaches him to shoot, and so on. If the child of such a shadowrunner undergoes UGE at puberty, I imagine there's a better chance of the parent NOT freaking out and kicking him out, than with an average corp wageslave. You could have an ork growing among his multi-racial team, actually quite different than the "ethnic" ork living in ork families.

If the parent shadowrunners are a closely knit team, their offspring might form some sort of shadowrunning clan, a bit like a gang or organized crime family, but dealing in shadowruns instead of various criminal enterprises. I imagine the grandchildren of such runner to be quite sure of themselves and their skills and identity, thinking of the rest of the corporate world as inferior, or at least blind.
*snip*
Through all this I assume that the parent shadowrunner actually loves his child and treats him as a "vanilla" parent treats his child. Many parent-child relationships aren't as ideal. The child of abusive, violent shadowrunners who are forced to follow their parent's footsteps, for example, might grow up to become shadowrunners, but with some very serious psychological issues, and none of the pride and familial feelings towards others of his generation described above. The same for the children of detached hackers and magicians devoting most of their time to their crafts. I don't even want to get into the darker things, such as magicians attempting to sacrifice their children for some dark initiation rites, and whatnot.

Snipped to save column length, not out of disrespect. Emphasis mine.

The points you raise are EXACTLY what I was wanting to talk about, and how it would depend on the parents; but what you hit on even more directly was the idea of a nurturing shadowrunner. So often we wind up (even ourselves) pigeonholing the 'runners as their profession, and don't consider how they would be with their own children. Some obviously would be awful parents. But look at the image you evoked: the STREET SAMURAI holding their child's hand while they learn to shoot! Tell me THAT'S not a little contrary to the stereotype, is it?

The part I highlighted in color is actually the basis behind Kerenshara, and my GM and I have been having a field day working it all up. It's all back story because most of them were assasinated before she formally entered the shadows herself, but we both feel it's important to her development; With one exception, her surviving "clan" members think she died with her parents.


QUOTE (Marshwiggle @ Jun 13 2009, 06:34 PM) *
However, while those options for character growth are perhaps a little less likely, the whole coming of age and proving yourself thing I can definitely see coming to the fore. Sure, every runner has heard of much more impressive runners and has something to prove to him or herself, but having parents who will understand what you do and who you care what they think, really could up the emotional resonance of a lot of 'proving yourself' themes.

Either one of the dynamics in the above two paragraphs would, I think, push 2nd generation shadowrunners to be more careful in putting together plans in advance.

Exactly. They would naturally be accustomed to the somewhat paranoid and twisty logic that pervades the shadows and probably consider it natural, possibly seeing newer 'runners who haven't gotten to internalize that mode of thought yet as "amateurs". They certainly will tend to be much more meticulous in my thinking, trying to draw on the lessons (read: mistakes) of their parents. They might, on the other hand, be prone to cockiness if their parents didn't drive home their mortality.

QUOTE
Here's one big question I've got for people - would a shadowrunner's kid trust his or her parents? Overall, I'm thinking that runners would likely be emotionally guarded with their kids (if only because they would have lots of stuff they couldn't or didn't want to talk about with their kids).

Lastly, lots of runners have some reason they can't just be part of the usual corp program, some reason they have to be in the shadows. The reason for a runner's kid is more subtle than the usual reason - they are culturally conditioned to the shadows, and against the rest of the world, and they might not fit so well into the rest of the world, or they might not like fitting in. That is subtle enough to be difficult to roleplay well without, well, being unsubtle about it.

Anyway, I don't mean that all this stuff happens with every runner's children, these are just my thoughts on what often happens.

Well, that goes back to what I was talking to about above. I can't see a supportive and loving parent pulling punches with their child. If they wanted a chance to go straight, I can very much see the parent taking extrordinary steps to see them well off straight and legal. They wouldn't necessarily talk about sensitive details, but I also can't see them being completely excluded from the after action conferences.

As to the "so subtle it stops being subtle" aspect DOES make it difficult sometimes to keep a tight line going, but so far I'm really enjoying the challenge, and my GM's pleased, so it can't be all THAT bad, right?

Kerenshara
QUOTE (Mirilion @ Jun 13 2009, 06:44 PM) *
Marshwiggle, now I keep imagining shadowrunning clan kiddies being given their first real run at age 18, by their parents, after only using their various skills in local or minor issues so far.
A milk run, but still, something can always go wrong. Would parents do that ?

Great question, and my questions back would be "Why wouldn't they?" The first 'run is always emotionally the hardest, because it's your literal baptism by fire. And the fact that things can ALWAYS go wrong instils a certain steadying basis for growth, because that time it DIDN'T go that wrong. The trick with that approach is to make sure they KNOW it's supposed to be a "milk-run" and skating through doesn't mean they're invincible and/or immortal.

Besides, the flip side to that would be "how hard would a parent TRAIN their child?" I don't think soft-balling things like hand-to-hand or casting high force spells under duress and distraction would stand a child in good stead down the line. If your parents started helping you taste the matt and your own blood before puberty, do you think the child might approach a lot of aspects a bit differently?
Cardul
I have thought about playing a second generation Shadowrunner myself, and the idea of 3rd Generation characters is rather easily conceivable. After all, there were second Generation runners in 1st Edition's time frame. In the 3070's it is entirely believable for there to be 3rd Generation Runners.

Now, the questions of how hard would the parents train their kids? I am thinking of that one episode of ST:TNG where Riker's father came for a visit, and Riker said that he never beat his father at that one sport, and, at the end, in a Father-Son game, Riker found out that his Father won because he cheated.
I envision that, in a second or third generation Runner, that that WOULD be the common thing. I do not think, however, that they would start making the kid taste the mat or their own blood before puberty..but, I definately think they would follow an incremental process for training their kids. You, start by making the kids learn how to fall, then how to throw a punch, and, over time, teaching them by real sparring, and, in the real sparring, there be a little holding back at first, then, slowly, incrementing up to JUST above the kids ability, so that the kid has the belief that he can eventually beat the parent, and so the kid does not feel discouraged or hateful towards the parent. Eventually, of course, the training will be at a level where the kid is facing the parent at full ability, and is pushing his limits, but, for the kid, pushing his limits and knowledge, by the parent keeping to just above what the kid is capable of , should be, by now, second nature.
Mirilion
I guess it's not very different than parents sending their kids off to the army after highschool these days,
Except the parents themselves are the boot camp sergeants, with all that implies about responsibility and training.

Another thought. People can be very different in private than in public. So the way a shadowrunner acts around her son, for example,
might be surprising even to those close to her, at least at first.

About the street samurai and his son. I'm having a really hard time believing that a parent could ECOURAGE his child to get cyberware.
Even a low-essence walking cyborg might have issues with that, especially after years of watching his little son grow up happy and glowing with essence and health.
I can't see him refusing his son's request for cyberware either (at least at age 18 or so), but I don't think it can be easy to think about your son's
parts replaced with metal.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Cardul @ Jun 13 2009, 07:51 PM) *
I have thought about playing a second generation Shadowrunner myself, and the idea of 3rd Generation characters is rather easily conceivable. After all, there were second Generation runners in 1st Edition's time frame. In the 3070's it is entirely believable for there to be 3rd Generation Runners.

Now, the questions of how hard would the parents train their kids? I am thinking of that one episode of ST:TNG where Riker's father came for a visit, and Riker said that he never beat his father at that one sport, and, at the end, in a Father-Son game, Riker found out that his Father won because he cheated.
I envision that, in a second or third generation Runner, that that WOULD be the common thing. I do not think, however, that they would start making the kid taste the mat or their own blood before puberty..but, I definately think they would follow an incremental process for training their kids. You, start by making the kids learn how to fall, then how to throw a punch, and, over time, teaching them by real sparring, and, in the real sparring, there be a little holding back at first, then, slowly, incrementing up to JUST above the kids ability, so that the kid has the belief that he can eventually beat the parent, and so the kid does not feel discouraged or hateful towards the parent. Eventually, of course, the training will be at a level where the kid is facing the parent at full ability, and is pushing his limits, but, for the kid, pushing his limits and knowledge, by the parent keeping to just above what the kid is capable of , should be, by now, second nature.

Point taken, but in hand-to-hand, if you actually go for contact instead of katas, you will wind up landing hard (tasting the matt) if for no other reason than a kid who thinks they're doing well is going to push for the "point" on the parent, and their instinct (especially early on) will force them to defend a tad harder than they intended. Besides, there's a school of thought that says "bruises teach best". Not beatings, bruises. And I would see 2nd and especially 3rd gen 'runners being overachievers when it came to training with the family, if that's the form it took, making it more likely for them to over-extend themselves. And blood can come from something as simple as a split lip, so I don't see that as being too unlikely. Hell, I remember attempting gymnastics related moves at a young age and finding out what my own blood tasted like! *grin*
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Mirilion @ Jun 13 2009, 07:53 PM) *
About the street samurai and his son. I'm having a really hard time believing that a parent could ECOURAGE his child to get cyberware.
Even a low-essence walking cyborg might have issues with that, especially after years of watching his little son grow up happy and glowing with essence and health.
I can't see him refusing his son's request for cyberware either (at least at age 18 or so), but I don't think it can be easy to think about your son's
parts replaced with metal.

There's a world of diference between encouraging them to do so, and supporting their decision when they decide to follow that road on their own. Remember, bioware is very common in 2070, and things like a datajack are as routine as getting your ears pierced (remember, not everybody gets their ears pierced, that doesn't mean it's not simple and routine). Between cultural acceptance and parental (group?) acculturization, I can't see the kid not going that route at least to SOME extent without finding out they're Awakened or something...

Now THERE'S a question: how does Sammie Dad deal with it when his little Sarah starts levitating her toys across the nursery?
wylie
i have thought of this, after reading HEADHUNTERS and PREYING FOR KEEPS, by Mel Odem. The main character, Skater, is good example of a 2nd generation shadowrunner who finds out he has a child

it expalins why he has the contacts he has, view on life, cyberware, etc

and they are a good read, too

Mirilion
Unless he is some sort of anti-magic bigot, I don't think it would matter much. He will still get her some training in martial arts, if only to boost her willpower and stamina, but I guess they wouldn't be as close.
If he is experienced in the shadows, he might introduce her to various magicians while growing up, and perhaps send her to a more serious university (with a fake I.D ?) at a certain age. I can see her surprising snobbish faculty members with secrets learened on the streets, and perhaps running away at some point after her I.D is discovered.
On a lighter note, I can see them shadowrunning together, with him all "No, summon that spirit over THERE !" and she's "DAAAAAD ! I know what i'm doing !"

If he was a magic hater, I guess things would be different. Darker themes creep up here, of abandonment and abuse.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Mirilion @ Jun 13 2009, 08:46 PM) *
On a lighter note, I can see them shadowrunning together, with him all "No, summon that spirit over THERE !" and she's "DAAAAAD ! I know what i'm doing !"

I wasn't trying to imply he wouldn't be supportive, just venturing into the realm of "Well, Drek! I don't know anything about that magic stuff. I just shoot things." How would he feel, trying to be a good role model for her? Would he worry she percieves him as a unintelligent blood-thirsty brute?

But your lighter side quote was MUCH more the kind of thing I had in mind - the ammusing frustration of trying to lovingly integrate two VERY different world views. I think the word I am searching for is "exasperation".
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