I know that shamanists get spells for which they receive a totemic bonus, but what about those that receive a totemic "minus?" For example, if you have a totem that's +2 to illusion, -1 to combat I was under the impression that you could take illusion and combat magic, but that the -1 still applies to the combat spells. However, I'm not sure if this is canon, or a house rule of my former GM (who did that a lot). I don't have my books at work so any help would be nice.

Thanks in advance.

-- dash --

I don't believe so. The full shamans get a minus to those spells because they are particulary _bad_ at them, compared to normal spells. I don't think it would be appropriate to give a shamanist access to spells his totem is particulary bad at, but deny access to spells his totem can deal with normally.

Spell type:, Full shaman, Shamanist
Bonuses, +dice, +dice
No bonus, normal, Cannot cast
Penalty, -dice, Cannot cast

So the totem you mentioned would only grant illusion spells to a shamanist. The trade-off comes because you can also summon a type of spirit.

Unless you're a Spider Shamanist in which case you can summon every single spirit just fine and still cast illusions.

I've yet to see a Spider Conjuror, why give up on a free spell catagory?

Such a shamanist would still have -1 die to resist the bad category of spells though.

I never read it like that, Rev. I always reckoned it was just -1 die to cast.

Bah maybe I have it wrong. I thought it was just -/+ dice for spells of that category. Meaning for everything related to them (probably even learning them and designing them).

A few totems (see Leopard, Horse) have explicit bonuses or penalties to resisting. So I read that the normal bonuses and penalties are only for spellcasting.

I don't think they apply to resisting, but I do think they apply to spell defense.

How bout this : Spider does not give bonuses to summoning watchers, or ally spirits (I am hoping it says "all nature spirits", I hate most of the mits totems so I barely look at them) so a conjuring adept spider shaman can summon those but a spider shamanist cannot.



Now if it says "all spirits" can a spider shamanist summon elementals, thought forms, insects, etc etc?

I'm certain that it says something like "anyone able to use conjuring can summon watchers".

I don't know about ally spirits, though, so I guess that's a possibility.

Zazen: point.

Rev: Actually, MITS clearly states that "Any magician able to use Conjuring to summon spirits can summon watchers" (MITS, pg. 100). As far as ally spirits go, your interpretation would mean NO shamanist could ever create an ally spirit, which is kind of unfair to them.

I don't have a problem with Spider shamanists, but if I did, I would just point out pg. 160 of the main book, where it states "...nor is it possible for a totem like Owl, where totem modifiers are based on time or place, but not purpose."

Now me, I don't have a problem with their penalties in the open (place) or when the haven't had time to make a plan (place), since their bonuses are very specific, and their penalties are more of a general thing. I would allow Snake shamanists for the same reason. If anything, they are less cheesy than other shamanists, who get the spells with bonuses but don't suffer the penalties, since they can't even use those spells. At least a Spider shamanist still has some penalties - and since they are such hefty ones, I would allow a Spider shamanist if I ran a campaign.

BTW, it says, "all nature spirits", not "all spirits". Me, I want to be a shamanist of the Path of the Righ. Oh, but they get a bonus for spellcasting in the Province of Meath, which would be "place". Darn.

And sr3 clearly states that shamanists can only summon spirits for which thier totem provides bonuses and no totem I have seen provides bonuses for watchers.

Rule Conflict! Arrrgh the shadowrun universe explodes at the speed of light!

Up to you whether you think the later book supercedes or the more specific rule supercedes, personally I have played it both ways. This is the sort of thing that ought to be in the faq.

SR3 doesn't mention watchers, ancestors, though forms, allies, elemental spirits, or loa. Thus the rules in the section about each spirit type take priority over the SR3 rules which only detail elementals and nature spirits.

Actually, as you could set your ally's home plane to be one which you have an advantage to summon from, the plane of the sky for example, I think you could summon your ally as a form of storm spirit (albeit without the standard powers for such a spirit).

Yea, thats the rationalization I came up with.

Personally from a rp standpoint I think that allies are ok, though I would consider requiring the player to make thier ally a bit like a nature spirit they could summon, but watchers aren't.

But then some shamanists sorta get screwed anyway (depending on their totem) so I have no problem with it going the other way.

However I think it is ludicrous that people think this is a clear cut case.

I've always read it that:

1) Shamanists can cast spells and summon spirits for which they recieve a bonus
2) ... which implies they cannot cast any other kind of spell or summon any other kind of spirit, including ones with a minus
3) ... the exceptions to summoning being watchers (generic spirit stuff anyone can 'create'), free spirits (true names have power even to mundanes) and allies (a personal investment into creating a new spirit).

Speaking of Thought forms, does anybody ever play psionicists?

They cost as much as a full-mage, but lose 2 catagories of spells (Transformation Manipulations, all health except "Heal") plus whatever else the GM thinks you shouldn't have since they can only use "mental magics"

Their thought form spirits are crap, having only 3 powers and no serious stat edges, plus they can have only one out at a time. Inferior to nature spirits and elementals in every way.

They can't ritual sorcery with anybody but a psionic, learn from anybody but a psionic, or initiate with any group but a psionic gestalt. And other psionics are "Extremely Rare" which means the GM is feeling very nice you'll never do those things.

Personally we houseruled that psionics paid at game creation as if aspected magicians (25 point build cost and 35 Magic Points) and got a bonus 2 die on Mental manipulation spells to make up for the drawbacks.

Psioncics are junk, because anyone following that path (in terms of the game world) is sorta ignoring reality. When the 3 dudes next to you go "uh, magic over here, check this out" and the one guy in the corner is like "nuh uh .. its the power of my mind" you can sorta see where his mental block thing hes got going on is shafting him in terms of potential.

While theyre certianly neat for flavor reasons, theyre also horrible because of it. So no, Ive never seen one played, and Im not really inclined to change the rules to make them more attractive. As the book says, theyre at the fringe of a fringe culture; and Im content to dtich them there.

Part of their weakness is how the book describes their psychology. With enough creativity (or ego), you can claim any spell effect as a result of "projecting your will into the world, and making it bend."

They should use shamanic style costs for their path to self-enlightenment. A few books on human psychology, a basket filled with asorted crystals, and some wierd self-help materials should provide a good psionic lodge for pretty low cost.

Although I haven't tested the consequences, I would consider allowing psionics to aquire spells instantly at normal karma cost by casting the spell, at double TNs with physical drain, during a run. This would benefit the psionic who stores up karma to have a level of flexibility that no mage or shaman can immitate.

I've always found it silly that SR says psionicists "refuse to belive in magic" and are thus penalized for it. I don't think it's any stranger than the hermetic/shamanic divide, and should be treated as just another form of magic.

IMC, anyone who wants to play a psionicist is essentially following a variant Shamanic path. The wu jen is even better for this, but I haven't been able to play SR3 with a group yet to try it.

At some point, I'll work up a real magic path for psionics.

I haven't seen anything wrong with a character opting for "psionics" in place of magic as long as the GM approves and has a defined list of rules.

A character could define any magical effect in terms of psionics, although justifying the summoning of spirits or watchers or elementals might be a little tougher, although not impossible.

-Siege

Supposedly Psionics create thought forms, which are basically spirits with only materialization, search, and telekinesis. They can also create Watcher spirits.

A Thought form is summoned like a nature spirit but has no domain. You can only summon 1 at a time (That's what sucks, if a Psionicist could dish out 6 of them at once he'd actually be useful.)

I'd nix the spirits idea and restrict the "psychic" to traditional powers attributed to psychokinesis.

It's not as mechanically useful as a hermetic mage or shaman, but it would be an interesting twist on the concept.

-Siege

Thought forms aren't limited by domain and they're fairly nasty in physical combat, apart from that their lack of powers does suck. They should probably have Confusion or Fear or something like that, maybe great forms could get Compulsions or Influence or something equally nasty.

Fairly nasty? Their attack is Str(M) damage and their strength is F-2. That means a force 6 Thought Form inflicts a big 4M damage, yeah that's nasty in combat.

I'll grant you they have good initiative and decent quickness but against, say, a Earth elemental or Spirit of the Land who's got F+4(S) damage they're nothing. They do, however, match Spirits of Man are are better than Spirits of the Sky or Wind elementals.

Shamanists can ONLY cast spells they get a bonus for, a penalty is not a bonus.

Think about it, you can cast spells for which you would normally (as a full shaman) get bonuses, you cannot cast spells for which you do not but you CAN cast spells for which you have penalties? That just don't make no sense.

and I gotta say, psionics was done pretty lame. I don't believe in magic! You don't need to believe in fire for it to roast you... however the concept of "belief is power" is certainly not new. This might be explainable for mana based spells that are cast at a specific person as they must anchor the spell to a "resisting" aura but when you do area effect manipulation spells...weeeelllll... different story.

Course I'm not completely familiar with the psionics rules so really this is just rectriloquism... that's talking out your ass but your lips are moving...

Sunday

Lilt, as you probably know, all the spirits do (Str) base damage in physical form. In Astral form their strength equals their force, so it is proper to say either (F) or (Str) base damage in Astral. Yes, the Thought Form on MitS p. 27 lists damage in a different form from the Spirits in the main book. That is confusing.

I read it that the spirit was actually doing damage using its psychokinesis power which as a strength equal to the force of the spirit.

As characters, psionics are extremely gimped. I did one up once, for one ot the forum games that didn't last very long. That was a 175-point game, though. I felt like I could play a weaker variety of mage just for the flavor, and still have a decent enough character.

Agreed. I can't see why hermetic traditions of magic, and shamanic traditions of faith would adapt to the new 6th age of magic, but psionicists would be too arrogant to work within their paradigm to create the same effects.

The more I think about it, a sorcery-focused magic user with full astral projection and very little summoning makes the most sense for your traditional psion. There are psionic traditions of most SR spell effects, so I don't see restricting any of the spells.

Conjuring is another matter, as most psychic phenomena doesn't involve summoning spirits; rather it concentrates on communicating with ones that are already present, control and banishing. So, grant them full use of conjuring for control/banishing purposes. Conjuring would be limited to watchers and allies, as these could be seen as autonomous creations of the psionicist's willpower, brought into being by his will and the energies around him (i.e. mana).

Of course, now that I think of it, channeling is a tradition among mediums and psychics. So, something of a hybrid between Loa and ancestral spirits might be workable. Hmmm...