Hello gentlemen, I have not posted on this site in quite some time as I took a long hiatus from tabletop gaming after my last group disbanded and I graduated high school. I am now thinking of starting a game of Shadowrun with the new system after one of my friends mentioned that he almost joined someones group on campus at the local college. He told me they were going to be play FOURTH edition! When I quit 4th Edition was not even released yet and there was a lot of skepticism, based on the fact that everyone on this site seems as enthusiastic as ever I am going to presume that it turned out great.

So, I want to know what the major things I should know moving forward are. I am ordering the .PDF for the main rules (PS what is the difference between anniversary edition and normal 4th? They are listed separately) from one of the e-sellers after I get home. However I know in SR3 that while you only "needed" the main rules you also "pretty much" needed like five other books, and that was just the rules not even the source books with the fluff (the best part). So what other books would you recommend? I can blow like $100 maybe more on books if it is worth it.

Also, any particular advice as I make this major leap? I imagine that the plot has progressed quite a bit and it sounds like the rules have changed a lot too just based on what my friend was telling me. (EVERY difficulty is a 5? Heresy! I loved guessing what the difficulty was, and really freaking out when I rolled my third six in a row but the GM just kept smiling!)

First: The Anniversary Edition cleans up a lot of things in the original and rewrites the Wireless Matrix chapter, among other things. Think of it as a Revision -- not quite a new edition, but it tweaks some things. Definitely get the Anniversary Edition.

Secondly, changes. Among other things, the following things have changed:

• Fixed target number -- you roll vs a TN of 5, all the time rather than changing it. Penalties are done via removing dice or increasing threshold (number of successes/hits).
• Attributes are tweaked. Quickness was split into Agility/Reaction and Intelligence into Intuition/Logic.
• There is no Karma Pool. Instead there's another attribute you buy called Edge.
• You roll Stat+Skill instead of Skill. To shoot a Predator IV you roll Agility+Pistols. To hack a maglock you roll Logic+Hardware.
• Character generation is a point-based system by default.
• The system has a different focus. It's still fairly crunchy, but they got rid of a lot of the edge cases, leaving it up to the GM rather than to try to make a rule for everything. Instead of having a set series of modifiers making something impossible, they leave it up to the GM to say 'No'. Some people hate this. Some, like myself, love it.
• They streamlined magic a lot. All magicians use a similar system for how their tradition is built. All can have mentor spirits now, though they emphasize that these might or might not be real, like in 3E.
• Magic is now a normal attribute. You have to buy it up with other attributes, it doesn't start at 6 automatically. It's used in most active magical roles, rather than other attributes. You roll Magic+Sorcery to cast, as an example.
• Bioware and Cyberware have been tweaked and recosted. They are a lot more comparable, and a lot less finicky in places. Also a lot less abusable in general, though there's still points where they break.

I'm sure others can find more, but that's off the top of my head.

The biggest change you see is in the Matrix. I don't know what your experience was with it in SR3, but they've tried really hard to integrate the Hacker (previously Decker) into the rest of the party rather than Matrix stuff being "that thing that the Decker does for 2 hours while the rest of the group goes out for pizza." The Matrix rules have been greatly simplified and streamlined. If you're a GM that likes to just make stuff up on the fly, then the rules will work well for you. If you loved generating super-detailed Security Sheafs and pouring over IC configurations, then the lack of detail might be a bit of a shock.

The Hacker has now been integrated by making everything Wireless. You access the Matrix wirelessly from where you are. You use a tech called Augmented Reality (AR) to interact with the Matrix without having to "go limp" into full VR (though you can still do that). Hackers are now encouraged to actually go with the team to do their thing. As you remember, corps and such like to put big nasty IC on the part of their system that connects to the world-wide Matrix. However, if you can actually get in the building then things are a lot easier. This is the way you are subtly (or not so subtly) pushed in SR4: bring your Matrix specialist with you, and when you get within Wireless range of the target system (generally you have to be within the same room), you Hack from there. Hackers can also mess up people's cyberware if they want to do something Matrix-related in a combat situation.

PS Can we please keep this thread from turning into another edition war?

There are two big changes, the rest are window dressing (I know I'm going to get grief over that but stuffl ike hcanigng vlaue/damage of weapon and targets for tests is window dressing my book and this is my commentary, feel free to disagree so long as it helps the original poster with his question) we adopted the changes and otherwise stayed with 3rd ed.

1) my personal, they cleaned up all the spirits and elementals to just 7- the 4 elements, beasts, man and watchers. spell casters call on the smae things with the same powers and you don't have to worry about going outside of the terrain-eeek I've run out the park my field spirit is gone, quick call a city spirit until i duck into the deli accross the street and have to call a hearth sopirt.- that is gone.

2)Decking -OMG it only took 4 editions but they got it right ands it works. mucxh less detail but much less of a snese the dekcers are on a different game. Very much like the stuff done by the characters in Ghost in the Shell.

Another point: don't go into SR4 expecting an evolutionary change and a few tweaks, like the SR2 to SR3 transition. SR4 is an entirely new game at every level. Any time you might have an urge to think, "Yeah, I remember how that happens, so I'll go from memories of SR3 rules," stop and open the SR4 book to see what it says. It'll be different in all the little details.

I watched this in my gaming group recently. I broke my way into SR4 carefully with a few friends, and we had our issues with the new system and "it ain't like the old days," but we got over it. We knew it was a whole new system. Then we brought in three "new" players. One had never played SR4 before, so he had no issues. One had played SR2 for years, but was also years out of practice and took to it as a new game - he had no problem. The third little piggie er player was a SR1/SR2/SR3 veteran who took to SR4 like it was a slight change from SR3 and...the game turned into a train wreck. Player 3 kept making game play decisions based on 15 years of SR rules that were no longer applicable.

There were larger problems in the game stemming from Player 3 that led to a break down mid-game, but don't underestimate the transition. You've got orks, elves, cyberware, the Matrix, megacorps, and shadowrunners, but the rules are going to be different.

Wow, it is really that different huh? Well I guess I better read the main book cover to cover. Thanks for the guidance on which edition to get as I was likely going to buy the normal 4th Edition instead of the anniversary edition that I just bought. Should be downloaded in just a couple of minutes so I will start reading!

Are there any good sourcebooks out to explain all the changes in the plot? I read all the SR1/2/3 sourcebooks in my spare time and learned a lot about the plot (even though a lot of it was purely history as the timeline had progressed by many years). I would be curious to see whether Dunkelzahn's plan is still on schedule and a few other things that I am not sure will be in the main book. Also, is the Renraku arcology in Seattle still rogue or did they take care of that? I can think of a million fluff questions now that I think of it actually. I love the fluff!

I think the biggest changes in any edition of any game is how much metagaming you do as a group. If everyone is used to min maxing and using the rules as a shield then you will be in for a shock. If you play where good decisions are rewarded and bad decisions punished then you can adapt well to most systems.

Biggest changes are the lower levels of stats and skills. This was a shock even from someone who hadn't played in over a decade. Suck it up and move on and you will do ok.

The corebook pretty much is good throughout the entire game. Some games the corebooks become obsolete. In SR4 instead they refer back to the original corebook. The corebook also is complete enough that you don't have to get the other books for awhile.

My recommendations for sourcebooks are in this order:
Street magic: A must if you plan for having a longterm magical component in your game.
Augmentation: Lots of different optional cyberware, bioware, etc. I view it as a must have.
Unwired: If you are decker/hacker security then you really should get this one before runner's companion. This is especially true if you have a long term technomancer.
Runner's companion: Lots of optional things to put in your game. Once you have it you will think you must always have it, but overall you won't realize what you are missing until you get it. If you want a simple game skip this book until later.
Arsenal: Nice goodies, but if you don't have this book you won't feel there is a big gap in your game. Basically a gear book which comes into its own when players want super customized items.

The core book does a pretty good job bringing you up to speed on the fluff. It sounds like you missed some of the SR3 from your questions though!

The Renraku Arcology plotline was wrapped up back in the SR3 days with the 5 adventure "mini campaign" Brainscan. They are excellent adventures and were my favourite SR3 ones to run. The fallout from Brainscan and a few other plotlines was followed up in Threats 2. Finally, most of the "dangling plotlines" were wrapped up in the book System Failure. Those were all books released in the SR3 days (though System Failure was an SR3 book actually released after SR4... curious fact).

As for plotlines in SR4, they are alive and well. SR4 is now 2 years into its timeline and continuing. As you're reading the SR4 core rulebook I would highly HIGHLY recommend that you "hide" Technomancers from your players until you've had a chance to read Emergence. Emergence is a "plot book" similar to Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, Mob War, or Blood in the Boardroom. It has some good stuff to build adventures off of, but the whole thing will go over way better if you wait to introduce Technomancers until that book. The other plot book is Ghost Cartels which is a series of interlinked (though not fully written) adventures. Runner Havens is a location book (like New Seattle or Smuggler Havens) that covers Seattle and Hong Kong as "feature" locations. The treatment of Seattle is a kind of weak (IMO), but the writeup of Hong Kong is worth the purchase. Seattle will also be revisited as a location in the forthcoming Seattle 2072 book.

As for supplemental books, I would recommend Augmentation (equivalent to SR3's Man and Machine) and Arsenal (equivalent to SR3's Cannon Companion and Rigger 3 books). Street Magic will become important later when your Magician and Adept characters want to start advancing and getting new powers and such. Save Unwired for later, you'll have a lot to "digest" with just the basic rules for the new Matrix without adding new optional rules. Unwired is only really essential if you have a Technomancer PC in your group, and if you follow my above advice regarding TM's and waiting for Emergence that shouldn't be an issue. Runner's Companion is definitely not needed at first. It adds a bunch of optional rules and new qualities but, IMO, it has been the single biggest cause of power creep in the SR4 lineup so far... don't bring it in until you are ready.

Alright, I think that should get you set up. Welcome back to the shadows in 2072!

keep an open mind...things dont always work like the old days...but you gotta keep up with the SOTA!

P.S. dont be discouraged by all the naysayers, if you read the board enough, you'll know what i mean.

SR4 P. 52 sidebar, not in SR4A
"For veterans of Shadowrun, Third Edition
(and the fi rst and second editions!), here’s the
lowdown on important mechanical concepts
that have changed:
* Dice pools no longer exist in their SR3 form.
They are now attribute + skill +/- modifiers.
* The target number for dice rolls is now always
5. Yes, all target numbers. Modifi ers
add or subtract from dice pools, not the target
number.
* Each roll of 5 or 6 is a hit rather than a
success. Success is determined by the
number of hits scored.
* The Rule of One is triggered more frequently,
and may be triggered even when the roll
is successful. See Glitches, p. 55. We feel
your pain.
* The Rule of Six no longer applies, except
when you are using Edge. See p. 67.
* Open Tests no longer exist.
* A new type of test Extended Tests has
been added.
* The maximum for natural, unaugmented
Physical and Mental attribute ratings is now
6 (plus metatype modifi ers).
* Intelligence is divided into two new attributes:
Intuition and Logic.
* Quickness is divided into two new attributes:
Agility and Reaction (Reaction is no
longer a derived attribute).
* Initiative is now a derived attribute
(Reaction + Intuition).
* Two new attributes have been added: Edge
(luck) and Resonance (for technomancers).
* Magic no longer starts at 6; it must be purchased
just like other attributes.
* Bioware and cyberware both reduce Essence,
but they are tracked separately and the
lesser value counts at half.
* Exclusive Actions no longer exist.
* You may now purchase skill groups. groups
of related skills with a cheaper bundled cost.
* All types of combat are now handled as
Opposed Tests.
* Condition Monitors are no longer fi xed at 10
boxes (see Condition Monitors, p. 65).
* Wound Levels are gone and Damage Codes
were changed to a single Damage Value (see
p. 152) and an Armor Penetration modifi er
(see p. 152).
* Matrix attributes and ratings are radically
different (see The Wireless World, p. 205).
* Street Index, Legality, Concealability, and
Weight have been removed from gear statistics
in favor of simplifi ed systems."



Here's one I point out to previous edition players;
Magic , Universal Magic, so no more Spirit Domains, no more Hermetic and Shamanic separate rules is a big flavor change. You can still do this types of mages, but they will use the same mechanics.

I just started up my first SR4 game this year and we're having our 5th session tonight. As a long time GM and player of 2nd and 3rd edition I've really liked the changes to the new system. You should have a really good time with it.

And I totally have to agree with the others that Hacking is now really awesome. I asked my wife to play the hacker in our group when we first started since she was the only player with any previous SR experience. But it's become really apparent that her character is really really useful, in a meaningful and immediate way. Real time hacking is one of my favorite changes.

In terms of splatbooks I wouldn't personally recommend any of them. My group's experience has been that all that the "class" books do is increase the need and reward for System Mastery. The game for us actually runs better out of the basic book.

I would highly recommend:

Emergence (best metaplot book since Renraku Arc)
Runner Havens
Corporate Enclaves (I love LA and you can finally play in Neo-Tokyo!)

I can see your point with two exceptions: Arsenal for Riggers and Unwired for Technomancers. For those of us that had the most fun making "batmobile" type vehicles with their Rigger, Arsenal is a necessity since it has all the rules for modifying vehicles to do cool stuff (like drop spike strips or go underwater). For TM's, they don't have much to look forward to with the Submersions unless you have the new Echoes from Unwired.

I cannot emphasis just how true the part about Unwired is, atleast from my perspective. I have always played a Technomancer (Mainly because I love the Fluff, especially post-Emergence.) but before I read Unwired I basically felt like a slightly less useful Hacker. Unwired basically delves into Technomancers to the same depth as the game does Mages (Infact a lot of the new Technomancer rules are very much like the Mage rules) and gives them a lot of character. Plus the new Sprites make for some fun times.

However if you do get a Technomancer in your group and you want to play in a game that fits in with game-lore in anyway at all make sure both of you have a good read of Emergence. So much in that book that should of been included, even briefly, in SR4/SR4A.

I love Unwired, but not for the technomancer stuff. While there are only what, a few new programs added and a handful of new program options, I think they really add a lot of the matrix side of things. In addition, just the extra chapters expanding on everything in the core, from peripheral nodes to slaving, even the pre-made IC and some of the examples...I just find it so indispensible.

Even if I wasn't GMing, I'd still want it. In fact, on the couple non-hacker characters I play, I've spent a considerable amount of time in Unwired to build his commlink and program selection out.

The least used book I have is Augmentation...the core book has all the cyberware/bioware you really want and need.

Emergence, Ghost Cartels, Corporate Enclaves, Runner Havens...all fun books to read, especially if you are a GM and want to intertwine those backdrops into your homebrew game, but if no one at your table really knows much SR lore, you'd be fine making up your own stuff.

Arsenal and Street Magic are both solid. While the core still covers everything you really need, my players always have some sort of stuff that has come from these books.

If I had to give advice, I'd say get SR4A and run a full campaign arc. My first one lasted a little over two years. Pick up Unwired, Aresenal and Street Magic about midway through, read up, let the players pick pieces out here and there and then when you are ready to run another campaign, let all those options become available.

Unwired presents some neat tricks but what I've read of 4.5 so far it does a very good job of going through a lot of the "fluff" in Unwired without having to buy that book. With a copy of SR4 and some patience you can get to pretty much the same understanding without the extra, I would say, dubious rules.

Edited: To remove my own stupidity.

Just for clarity to the OP, when people refer to "4.5" or "SR4.5" they are referring to the Anniversary Edition of the core rulebook that you already purchased. The official abbreviation for this book is SR4A.

There have been two big plot arcs so far.

2070: Emergence (technomancers and the return of AIs)
2071: Ghost Cartels (tempo's rise and fall)

I can't wait for next year (in game of course).

As far as core rule books to pick up in addition to the main book, go with all of them, but in this order. Street Magic, Unwired, Augmentation, Arsenal, Runner's Companion. Reason being, the extra write ups and descriptions and rules for the realms of Magic and the Matrix that exist in both of the first two books are a must have. For all of the bonus gear, guns, ware and vehicles in Augmentation and Arsenal they come in a second place. The stuff in Runners Companion is good for an advanced game, but make sure you put that well behind the first two.

There are three 4e setting books. Runner Havens (Seattle Hong Kong), Corporate Enclaves (LA Neo-Tokyo) and Feral Cities (Lagos Chicago).

The one cool thing to keep in mind while reading the Location books is that they roughly coincide with timeline years as much as the plot books do.

Runner Havens covers its two cities during 2070
Corporate Enclaves is for 2071
Feral Cities is collected for the 2072 year (even though the date stamp is at the end of 2071)

They're pretty awesome because they'll let you know who's big and bad and on each other's shit lists for that season.

While I agree with the recommendations for other books, I would like to point out that the core SR4 book is a lot more self-contained if you want to start out with nothing but it. The main rulebook has things the SR3 BBB was lacking - qualities (formerly advantages and disadvantages in SR3), submersion for technomancers, initiation for awakened characters, bioware, and a fairly good selection of commonly-encountered critters.


SR4 is a completely different game. It may not seem that way at first glance - you still have similar stats, and you still toss handfulls of d6's to resolve your actions. But the similarities are deceptive. Stats and skills are lower, but are also capped much lower - a skill of 4 in SR4 is not the same as a skill of 4 in SR3. So while characters may seem "weaker" compared to their SR3 counterparts, they aren't - not in the SR4 game world.

Not to nitpick too much but it didn't even have Otaku in the main book. And TMs are light-years more playable than Otaku characters. Our table ended up instituting shadowrunner child labour laws in our game.

Get the SR4A PDF, not the SR4 one, or you'll have to integrate the errata yourself.

I will say that you can play a very good game with just the core book. Initiation rules are in there, lots of Adept powers and spells, the Matrix section is quite comprehensive and there is a lot of cyberware / bioware and weaponry, etc.

When you do buy additional books, Street Magic and Augmentation are the two big, big additonals in the sense that they cater the most to different areas of the game. Arsenal is also pretty packed. Unwired is fine, but it doesn't expand the options in quite as dramatic a way as SM and Aug., do for their areas, imo.

For fluff, I quite like Runner Havens as a means to quickly establish some atmosphere and background. It covers Seattle if that's where you're starting.

I really didn't like Emergence for a number of reasons, but chief of which is that it is not an adventure. It is largely page upon page upon page of Shadowtalk with some run ideas (very, very unfleshed out) occasionally inserted. Much of it doesn't really make a lot of sense, either. The second big reason is that it puts Technomancers in the role of the X-Men and everyone else is Bobby's parents.

If you're looking for a printed campaign arc, get Ghost Cartels for a far better attempt at the concept of an adventure framework.

Also, I have a site (link in sig) with some adventures, sample NPCs and various player handouts (such as What Would Samurai Do?) which I've found useful for bringing new players up to speed.

Hope that helps,

K.

EDIT: Runner's Companion has some good stuff. Much of the artwork is awful though - by which I mean I could do better and I am NOT an artist.

I'll second getting the PDF of the new version. Going through it now and it is layed out much better and greatly expands the amount of rules in the core book. There's also at least one hidden gem in there that didn't make the changes document (ie. spellcasting and summoning foci can no longer be used for drain -- no more using a Power focus for the action and the others for the drain).

I actually liked that Emergence was just a shadowtalk book. It could have done with a follow up campaign arc such as the aforementioned Renraku Arcology - Brainscan awesomesauce but it was still good anyway. And like it or not it did give Technomancers some flavour that was lacking in the core books. Also I'll point out that the whole X-Men thing also applies to mages if you follow the fluff. (ie. no one understands what they do or how and a lot of people are afraid of them -- "Please don't turn me into anything...unnatural")

If a book of Shadowtalk is what you want, then Emergence will certainly provide. That's why I always qualify my criticisms of things with the reasoning behind them so that people can judge whether it is also true for them. Personally, I couldn't work out who the book was supposed to be aimed at - if GM's, then there was too little actual information and you had to glean it from reading pages and pages of in-character dialogue. If players, then they'd end up sitting around reading all night and they'd be shut out of the game because the moment you tell them they're reading information from a Matrix forum, they're going to start posting replies to the NPC posters at which point the whole book becomes instantly broken. Hmmm. We need something other than the Fourth wall, something to describe the barrier between one set of fictional characters in a setting and another set of fictional characters in the setting that can't interact because one group is pre-scripted and other group is not. Erm, call it the three and a half'd wall. At any rate, the PCs are prone to break it the minute they're exposed to the shadowtalk.

My X-Men comment was not about the in-character material of the TM's being a new and frightening force (which makes little sense to me and is a tired trope in Shadowrun anyway), and more a reference to the films. In Emergence, everything revolves around the TM player. A PC can be a poor persecuted TM, a PC can rescue a poor persecuted TM's but what she can never be is something other than a TM and still have that feeling of specialness. It is particularly bad for Hacker characters who get to have their face rubbed in it constantly that no matter how much they may have studied, no matter how much they might actually write software for the Matrix, they'll never understand it as well as the mystical mutant kid who becomes one with the code. Sorry hacker - there's nothing special about you.

Emergence is also very awkward to put into a running campaign if you weren't aware of it in advance (it coming out a year after people started playing didn't help). When the PCs walk into the bar and find everyone hiding from the other "evil" technomancer, the player is inclined to say: "But I was here last night... everyone has been fine for the last year. What gives?"

Anyway, sorry - this isn't the place to re-open the thread on Emergence. But I felt obliged to warn the OP that many of us thought it was pretty bad. Ghost Cartels is much superior in terms of being a usable supplement with least effort. Cheops - would you agree with that?

K.

I personally recommend, NOT switching to 4th edition. I'm not going to bash it or anything, as that's been done far too many times. If you'd like more information about my opinion on this, I'd be more than happy to send a PM, email, etc. but I don't want to post it here, otherwise your thread will turn into a big fight, and that would be lame.

I haven't read Ghost Cartels yet. My group got fed up with SR about a year ago and I am only starting to get back into it. It definitely does sound like it is easier to implement in that it has actual "adventures" in it like Brainscan.

Points taken about TM being more special than Hacker. Without getting into the debate about Hacker/TM I will say that there are enough unique things about the Hacker that make them worthwhile. Essence Loss not crippling them for starters. Increased versatilitiy without sacrificing in their area of specialty.

In my games we've used Emergence for both GM and PC. I read it to see what is coming up in the game world and modelling it ahead of time. For the PCs I let them read sections after reaching certain in-game milestones (based on the time stamps in the book). If they feel the need to interact with the characters in the Shadowtalk I let them. Why not! One of my players' best memories is how the team Hacker become pretty good buddies with Nuyen Nick.

As with all the non-Core books: Mileage will vary.



PS. Noticed my mistake vis a vis the Resonance Realms. Edited out my idiocy.

My advice stick with 3rd ed not that i'm saying 4th ed is bad i just think 3rd ed is better there are some nice idears in 4th it does'nt feel the same if you take my meaning

Regardless of the merits of 3rd vs.4th , there is a lot of very good quality stuff coming out for 4th edition. Shame to miss it or cover it in conversion notes.

i say get the pdfs and run a game or two to see if you like it. run 3rd after that to have a more direct comparison. see which you like better. personally i used to hate sr4, but now the only reason i havent switched is because i dont feel like buying the books right now. i already have all ill ever need for 3rd.

I don't know if it's cost-effective to get SR4 books while playing SR3, and certainly things like Arsenal and Augmentation are too much on the crunchy side, but I get the books, adapt them, and use them for SR3 anyway.

I'll second (or third or fourth) the notion that you can't really think of SR4 as an upgrade/update to SR3. Play it and evaluate it on its own merits. If you enjoy it, good! But don't expect it to do what SR2/SR3 did in the same way, because while the fluff is the same, the rules have become quite different and they can throw you for a loop.