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Mr. Mage
My apologies if this has been covered somewhere else, but I couldn't find much on it after searching.

I was just wondering what all you mages out there do to help resist drain. Obvious one like getting Foci and taking initiaition ranks to get various Metamagics help, but tend to be very expensive Karma wise (and nuYen wise in the case of Foci).

My main Mage character is a conjurer and tends to summon spirits hours before a run (since the rules state that their Services don't expire until the next sunrise or sunset, and that putting them on standby does not use a service) so that he can rest for an hour or two before hand and regain his Stun Drain (Out of luck if I overcast though..hehe). Or I will Bind several of them earlier on in the week, as "Just in case" measures.

Overall, I think I'm pretty good at Resisting Drain, since I didn't have to spend any money on Cybernetics of any sort. All that went towards Foci and the like. But I have started to do more spontaneous casting, i.e. combat spells, and that can hurt you more than a bit on a long 'Run'.

I just wanted some suggestions for Drain Resistance, even if they don't help too much and even if it's based off of a House Rule. Just give me some ideas...
Mx
Getting fetishes for those combat spell is cheap and easy way to get +2 drain dice, but just don't loose them.
TheOOB
While it doesn't help with drain resistance, a good first aid kit with the appropriate skill can really help with drain. Just take a specialty to offset the penalty for working on an awakened character(which awakened I imagine would be a valid specialization).
Mr. Mage
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 24 2009, 07:02 PM) *
Getting fetishes for those combat spell is cheap and easy way to get +2 drain dice, but just don't loose them.


Yea...I was thinking that, but I wasn't sure if they could be used by anyone since it's under the "Limited Spells" section. I wasn't sure if a full-fledged mageling could use it, though I don't see why not.

Also, you have to buy them for a specific spell, unless I'm mistaken, and not a spell catgory..
i.e A fireball Fetish, not a combat fetish...etc.

But they're relatively cheap, so maybe that's one way to go.


I was thinking about First Aid too. That could at least get rid of the Drain afterwards, and as long as have a bit of respite between casting, I could continue spellslinging or summoning all day. Maybe I'll start investing some stuf into that, or buy an auto-doc or something.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Mr. Mage @ Jun 24 2009, 09:05 PM) *
Yea...I was thinking that, but I wasn't sure if they could be used by anyone since it's under the "Limited Spells" section. I wasn't sure if a full-fledged mageling could use it, though I don't see why not.
yes he can. However He'll never be able to cast the spell without the fetish, unless he learns the unlimited version as well.

QUOTE
Also, you have to buy them for a specific spell, unless I'm mistaken, and not a spell catgory..
i.e A fireball Fetish, not a combat fetish...etc.

But they're relatively cheap, so maybe that's one way to go.
Both are correct.


QUOTE
I was thinking about First Aid too. That could at least get rid of the Drain afterwards, and as long as have a bit of respite between casting, I could continue spellslinging or summoning all day. Maybe I'll start investing some stuf into that, or buy an auto-doc or something.
Yup, my mage does that as well. And soon he'll even be skilled in First Aid.
crizh
Centering and a Centering Focus obviously.

The higher your grade of Initiation the better this gets.

Improve Attribute Spells. If you have access to Spirits of Man then they can cast and sustain these spells for you. Long Term Binding rocks for this although many might consider it cheesy.

Genetic Improvement or other method of improving your augmented maximum will be of great help with this technique. Choose your race and tradition wisely.

The Aspected Domain advanced lifestyle quality will also net you a couple of dice while you are at home.
Mr. Mage
Nifty...These are all pretty helpful and I will certainly have to try and incorporate them into my Mage in one way or another. Plus, this gives me a lot of options for Drain Resistance, so I can pick and choose, and hopefully still have room left in my Karma Pool for stuff like...oh, I dunno, Spells to cast which cause drain...hehehe
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Jun 24 2009, 12:35 PM) *
While it doesn't help with drain resistance, a good first aid kit with the appropriate skill can really help with drain. Just take a specialty to offset the penalty for working on an awakened character(which awakened I imagine would be a valid specialization).


Modern medial techniques can't help in healing magical damage like drain (there are thousands of posts covering this already). A good first aid kit would be as helpful as a bottle of aspirin. Using homoeopathic medicine (as covered in Augmentation) will help the healing process but not at the point when drain occurs. I'm sorry nothing will help with drain damage after it has occurred. I would use fetishes myself.

You have to remember that drain is a game mechanic to prevent mages from casting spells till the cows come home. Yeah it sucks if you overcast a fireball spell (that burns everything in its path) and then get a nasty headache in return. Suck it up muffin, your a mage.
Dakka Dakka
Read the SR4 Rules. First Aid can heal any stun and physical damage including drain. Only Magical healing is not allowed to reduce drain damage.
Chibu
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 25 2009, 09:48 AM) *
Read the SR4 Rules. First Aid can heal any stun and physical damage including drain. Only Magical healing is not allowed to reduce drain damage.


Correct. There is nothing in the rules limiting First Aid from healing drain. Heck, there's even an optional rule to let Treat spells heal drain. You probably should not let it anyway though. it's the main reason that players overcast all the time, because they're not scared of drain. They should be. It's supposed to be a limiting mechanic, but everyone ignores that their character is taking Physical damage equal to that of a bullet because they can just heal it and move on. If you're going to allow that, you might as well just not make them take drain in the first place to save yourselves some time. Especially since, "Band-aids™ can't fix an aneurysm." as I've mentioned many times before. But then again, I don't like the first aid rules in general, so whatever.
crizh
While I have some sympathy with the healing Drain is unbalancing point of view I have absolutely none for the 'fluff' band-aid can't heal an aneurysm POV.

In a world with Saviour Medkits full of Nano-machines that has had sixty years to invent pharmaceuticals that specifically target the causes of Drain there is no good reason at all to say that you can't use First Aid on Drain.

Other than the aforementioned game balance issues.

Which while they may be understandable are nevertheless universally house-rules.
Cheops
QUOTE (Mr. Mage @ Jun 24 2009, 06:38 PM) *
Obvious one like getting Foci ...


Not sure if this is true anymore since I am using an outdated copy of SR4A but Spellcasting and Summoning Foci don't help with drain now. So the only drain resistance that Foci add are from Centering Foci.

(no more archmages running around using Power 4 for casting and Spell 3 for drain)
Ard3
My group has always ruled that drain can only be healed trough natural rest. This makes magicians really think when when, how and what to cast. And overcasting... is really rare, only when there really are no options(Or when shark shaman goes berserk).

Actually when I came to DS I had to doublecheck core rules because I thought this was RAW.
Malachi
You know, I've had this idea kicking around for a little while now:

What if First Aid tests didn't actually heal the damage, but let you ignore the Wound Penalty from the damage. If the character received any new damage in the track (Stun or Physical) then the full Wound Penalty reasserted itself (you just pulled out your stitches or something) until a new First Aid check was made.

Thoughts?
Ravor
Blood Magic.

Cyberware.

Genetic Mods.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jun 25 2009, 04:53 PM) *
You know, I've had this idea kicking around for a little while now:

What if First Aid tests didn't actually heal the damage, but let you ignore the Wound Penalty from the damage. If the character received any new damage in the track (Stun or Physical) then the full Wound Penalty reasserted itself (you just pulled out your stitches or something) until a new First Aid check was made.

Thoughts?


I like the idea because it is more realistic. If I put a splint on a broken leg, my leg is still broken but I won't be in as much pain (depending on how good the splint is). If someone smacks my broken leg with a bat though, I'm back to square one and then some. I like the idea.

This gets really nasty with drain. You can counter the effects of drain so that you can make a hasty retreat, but if your fool enough to try to overcast again... POW!!! it hits you like a brick wall.
Zurai
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Jun 27 2009, 06:08 PM) *
I like the idea because it is more realistic. If I put a splint on a broken leg, my leg is still broken but I won't be in as much pain (depending on how good the splint is). If someone smacks my broken leg with a bat though, I'm back to square one and then some. I like the idea.


Except, of course, that a broken leg is outside the scope of SR4's damage system. That's a long-term injury, and characters can conceivably heal their entire damage track in a single day of rest without assistance. Heck, that's not even hard. A character with 6 Body rolls 12 dice (in sterile conditions and with basic medical supplies but no medkit or doctor and certainly no Savior nanites or the like) but only has 11 boxes on their physical damage track, and every hit on the test restores a box of damage. If they were at 11/11 boxes of Physical damage taken and were able to rest for a day, it would be possible (unlikely, but stranger things have happened) for them to recover 100% of their damage with no lasting penalties.

In other words, Shadowrun ignores, for the general case, wounds that take more than a few days to heal up. That means no broken limbs, no aneurysms, no heart attacks, no strokes, no shots to the gut or heart or brain. A wound that "killed" you and you burned a point of Edge to survive is different -- those specifically give long-term penalties.
Mr. Mage
QUOTE (Zurai @ Jun 28 2009, 01:16 AM) *
Except, of course, that a broken leg is outside the scope of SR4's damage system. That's a long-term injury, and characters can conceivably heal their entire damage track in a single day of rest without assistance. Heck, that's not even hard....


You could always make a system to keep track, or give them a temporary negative quality. It isn't really that unrealistic to have fully healed wound track but still have a broken leg. You could be physically healthy otherwise, just have a broken leg, which woul cause penalties on things like Dodge or movement speed. Or maybe you have a broken arm, well then you effectively only have one arm, noe dual wield and its harder to exert physical force for lifting things or barring a door.

Personally, I just find it really amazing that I haven't taken more than 1 or 2 Physical damage per run (Knock on wood!)
I'ts probably because I'm really not a frontline fighter, and we haven't really fought any powerful mages yet. Plus I'm damn good at soaking drain so I'm probably (so far) the "hardiest" of my group. Things could change though......
Traul
If you're going into bioware, a trauma damper is a must have.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jun 25 2009, 05:53 PM) *
You know, I've had this idea kicking around for a little while now:

What if First Aid tests didn't actually heal the damage, but let you ignore the Wound Penalty from the damage. If the character received any new damage in the track (Stun or Physical) then the full Wound Penalty reasserted itself (you just pulled out your stitches or something) until a new First Aid check was made.

Thoughts?

I have seen this argument again and again, and Malachi's argument is how our group essentially deals with it, and mainly for one good reason: Medicine. Why have a doctor if all you need is a medic with a really wicked first-aid kit? Most people have at MOST ten or eleven boxes in their physical and/or stun tracks. So a crack medic can heal MOST of it. In game terms, an adept medic could (with the Improved Ability quality) have skill 10 in first aid and pile on enough dice to get the hits. I know it's an abstract system, but come ON!

In the real world (*gasp!*) first-aid's function is to stabilize a patient and preferably to minimize the "effects" of the injuries. Yes, in the 6th World, you've got nanites and other bio-chemical "stuff" that can do wondorous things to the (meta)human body, but I don't believe #1) that they act fast enough to remove the wounds THEMSELVES within, say, thirty seconds and #2) I don't think they're in the standard med-kit, regardless of rating. The reason for that is simple: the price is just too low for the refills. ALL of the nano-tech in Augmentation is VERY expensive per aplication, and so are a lot of the drugs. Even NarcoJet, which has been around since 2055 (2nd Ed) at least, is 50¥ per dose. Why should super-advanced medical nanites and wonder-heal compounds be any less? And why bother having any mechanics for assisted healing? Shouldn't the same drugs and 'bots mean every surgery is just an out-patient basis? Why would you need something like the gene-ware enhanced healing at all?

Even in far future sci-fi, "QuickHeal" only speeds up healing, it doesn't actually knit tissue and re-grow bone in seconds. It's not until Star Trek levels of technology (remember, now, these are the people who can replicate anything up to parts for a FTL capable shuttlecraft) that we see near-instantaneous healing. Even Star Wars had the Bacta tank for helping accelerate healing in hours rather than days. Magic, on the other hand, being the basis (or procuct of) life energy is able to actually repair flesh and bone, but look at the drain cost: Damage Value -2. So for somebody with ten boxes, that's 8 Drain, higher than even the ugliest F6 combat spells. And the number of boxes you put back is CAPPED at the force of the healing spell. That's right: you take drain based on damage, but it's the amount of mojo that caps your healing. So even tossing it as F2 means you take the full drain (Unless there's an Erata I missed that says it's the number of points you're TRYING to heal, not the full amount). That makes magical healing precious and very special.

Allowing a med-kit to permanently heal somebody of six boxes of damage (Unresisted .44 shot to the chest) in eighteen seconds is beyond "abstract" and well up in to silly, if not outright nonsensical. And the kit itself only adds dice to the pool of the user, not skill, so your max boxes are capped at skill rating if you go straight RAW anyhow. I have no problem with those super-compounds reducing swelling, draining edema and contusion and so forth to effectively remove the penalties like a stim patch (I assume that's what's included in the kid for using it to treat stun damage) does for stun, because that's what First-Aid is really supposed to do.

Anyhow, that's my two centi-nuyen.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 24 2009, 07:02 PM) *
Getting fetishes for those combat spell is cheap and easy way to get +2 drain dice, but just don't loose them.


Does SR4 have disposable fetishes anymore?

I remember one shaman in SR2 that had disposables in the form of those little hotel room mini-bar bottles of alcohol. He'd drink them to cast spells. Always ended up being completely shitfaced at the end of the run. Which worked, cos often the player was drinking too and ended the evening the same way.



-karma
Dakka Dakka
I get what you're saying, but you are missing one point here. Nowhere in the rules does it say which injuries correspond to so and so many boxes of damage.

The six boxes of damage aren't necessarily a chest wound from a heavy pistol. It could just as well be a lucky grazing hit to the temple which bleeds heavily into the eyes. This case is more plausible IMHO because the shooter had only a marginal success with one net hit. The disadvantage of -2 dice is just as conceivable, but repairing this damage is a lot easier for a medic.

If the default system is too powerful for you, you might want to look at the severe wounds rule in Augmentation. This system does away with the all powerful medics, if the severe wounds are incurred
Mr. Mage
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 8 2009, 05:45 PM) *
Does SR4 have disposable fetishes anymore?

I remember one shaman in SR2 that had disposables in the form of those little hotel room mini-bar bottles of alcohol. He'd drink them to cast spells. Always ended up being completely shitfaced at the end of the run. Which worked, cos often the player was drinking too and ended the evening the same way.



-karma

I don't know about disposable fetishes anymore, but the Limited Spells section in the Core book did bring up fetishes, but they seemed permanent to me. Who knows, I tend to read things wrong sometimes.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Mr. Mage @ Jul 9 2009, 03:34 PM) *
I don't know about disposable fetishes anymore, but the Limited Spells section in the Core book did bring up fetishes, but they seemed permanent to me. Who knows, I tend to read things wrong sometimes.
You read right this time. The crutch needet to cast Limited Spells is called Fetish in SR4.
Mr. Mage
yes... but you can also get said fetishes without having a limited spell correct? just to help with drain?
Dakka Dakka
Actually no. fetishes only have a value if you learned a limited spell.
Mr. Mage
hmmm... oh well.... I think that was actually someone's suggestion earlier in the thread too...
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