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Mirilion
I was wondering if it is possible to train skills or to prepare for specific missions using VR.
Lets say gunslinger adept puts on some trodes and dives into a gun battle simulation. Can it be programmed at a level that will count as training (gaining karma, or some temporary bonuses) ?

Furthermore, perhaps the team's hacker (or a programmer contact) can program a simulation that will prepare the team for a specific run, using floor plans and such. He could even grant the
team's mage access to another layer of the simulation, that mimics the astral plane (this may be impossible to do, for mundane programmers).
That way, during the run itself, the team may get bonuses depending on the simulation's rating/reliability.

Edit : I remember some role playing system that used VR to grant temporary edge points, (called "karma" I think, but used as edge) usable only for tests made during the mission you trained for.
Bob Lord of Evil
VR training is available in SR games that I run, remember this is what I do for 3rd Edition. I think that it was discussed in either The Matrix or the support book (Target: Matrix?) that came out for it. I don't remember if there was a bonus. But I create a Team Dice Pool (or TDP) that is only good for that mission.

Every team member is able to put in 1 Karma Point per day that they train in VR, up to a max of 4. During the course of that mission they can draw dice out of that pool just as if it was a combat/hacking pool. However, not for Magic tasks. At the end of the mission, the Karma allocated goes back to the player.
Jhaiisiin
The way I'd do it would be to allow VR training to count for skills that don't require specific physical actions, such as rigging, hacking, writing programs, knowledge skills, and possibly build & repair skills.

Muscle memory and learned reflexes are just too important for other things such as firing a weapon in combat, punching, blocking or manual driving (non-rigged piloting, not transmission type), and so pure thought learning wouldn't cover everything you'd need to learn such skills.

That'd be my take anyway.
McAllister
I've been thinking about this for a while, and the solution finally came to me; temporary skillwires.

For every hour of VR training, roll LOG + INT; each hit adds one to the rating of the "skillwire" in your brain, up to a maximum of the training module's rating. Cut the interval in half for hot-sim, but each roll deals Stun damage equal to hits achieved, resisted only by Willpower, and counts as (6 - 1/2BOD, minimum one) hours of strenuous physical activity for fatigue purposes. You cannot at any one time have more than LOG + INT rating worth of "skillwires" in your brain. Every morning that you wake up with "skillwires" in your brain, roll LOG + INT; the total number of hits is how many points of "skillwire" you have "remembered," distributed however you like.

Here's an example.

Turbo Bunny is a mechanic with LOG 4 and INT 3, but she needs to sneak into a shop at night and swipe a part to repair her expensive drone. Problem is, her B&E friend broke his amygdala on the last run, so she has to do it herself. She figures her Hardware skill (already at 5) will be plenty to deal with maglocks, but she needs Infiltration, and maybe Palming to keep it hidden (it's a sprocket, so it might be noticed if she's carrying it around). She starts in the VR trainer with Infiltration. Her B&E friend has a hacker buddy who cracked the copy protection on a rating 4 Infiltration module and sent it to her, so she fires that up. The first roll (and hour of REM hyper-learning) gets 2 hits, so she keeps going for another hour. The second roll gets 3 hits, but since it's only a rating 4 training module, she now has a rating 4 Infiltration "skillwire." Next comes Palming. She'd love to get it up to rating 4, but the only module she can pirate on short notice is rating 3, and besides she only has "room" left for 3 more points of "skillwire" in her brain, so she slots what she's got and runs it. She only rolls one hit in the first hour, and she notices it's getting late; if she waits too long, the drowsy night watchman will be replaced by the store's grumpy shotgun-toting dwarf owner, so she wants to run while the running's good. To speed up the process, she flips the hot-sim switch, and makes another roll to train Palming. Her three hits are plenty to max out the skill, and it took half the time, but she's drained when she gets out; her arms feel like they've been working muscles she's never used before for 5 hours straight (her slender BOD is a mere 2), and she has to resist 3 stun damage (hits on the test). Her willpower's strong, but Will isn't her best stat; with a merely average roll, she manages only to soak one damage, adding 2 to her Stun track. Feeling a bit drained physically but amped up by her hours of knowledge assimilation, she grabs her loaned B&E gear and heads out.

As she goes to sleep after successfully nabbing the widget, Turbo thinks to herself that sneaking around really isn't her forte, but she wouldn't mind keeping that ability to pull sleight-of-hand tricks on small parts. Thus, when she wakes up, she rolls three hits on LOG + INT, allowing her to keep all three points of Palming "skillwire" in her head, though she's forgotten how to pull off the Infiltration maneuvers that came so naturally last night. Oh, well; if she really cared to learn it, she'd learn it the hard way.

The only other thing to keep in mind is that, given the potential for this to be abused, I'd make the VR training simulator and modules quite expensive.

Thoughts?
DireRadiant
You can already apply AR bonuses whenever you want. Up to +3. I would simply allow a pre run simulation to serve as the reason the AR bonus is applied.
Mirilion
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jun 30 2009, 05:53 AM) *
Problem is, her B&E friend broke his amygdala on the last run, so she has to do it herself.


Very nice.

Anyway, I think it's a good idea, but yes, it seems prone to abuse.
I just thought about VR training as a way to prepare runners for a specific mission. It adds to their knowledge and confidence during that mission, providing some sort of bonus. Probably similar to a tacnet bonus.
If you want to use VR to train an active skill, I think it would be better to simply add the VR-trainsoft's rating to the instruction test, or cut the training time needed to raise the skill if you already have it.

Using VR for a temporary skillwire system sounds like a different technology to me, and one with potential for abuse (although I've noticed that most of Shadowrun rules are the same). I don't see any reason why both
technologies can't coexist.


tarbrush
For myself, I'd probably fold it into the existing Tacnet bonus. So, the 1-4 dice you get from being tacnetted assumes that you've also spent a bit of time doing walkthroughs with your tacnet software.

And for raising skills, tutorsofts already exist.
Aaron
One thing to remember is that VR is always obviously VR, except in UV nodes. I don't think it's ever going to give you the same experience as actually doing it.
Ravor
Aye peraonally I'd use it more as a brainwashing methiod to desensitize people more-so than the jaded blackhearted citizen of the Sixth World already is by default.
Mirilion
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 30 2009, 09:27 PM) *
One thing to remember is that VR is always obviously VR, except in UV nodes. I don't think it's ever going to give you the same experience as actually doing it.


That's right. That's the reason why you can't gain Karma from a VR training software, because basically it's the same as playing a game.
However, getting to know the mission area and rehearse your team tactics ahead of time should grant some bonuses. VR, while obviously artificial, can include
a lot of data (smells, touch, vibration, noise and so on), and can be very useful as a mission simulator to be used before the actual mission, or as a teaching aid.

Hadn't thought about tutorsofts. Still, different teaching technologies can exist, just like augmentations, even if they are less interesting to most players.
McAllister
To be honest, my inspiration was The Matrix, the movie with Keanu Reeves. Obviously a 30-sec mastery of all martial arts is ridiculous, but I liked the idea of quick'n'easy skillwires that depended on the user's brains. Just my nuyen.gif2.
Ravor
Meh, that is what real skillwires are for.
Mirilion
Well, I was asking for advice about how to handle training for missions using realistic VR simulations, nothing related to skillwires.

In the Matrix, they used VR to train, as well, by the way. The bits shown in the movie were about making a point, not actual mission training, though.
The woman in red turning into an agent, training Neo in Matrix survival (no need to breathe, no need to obey physical laws, and such).

They didn't use VR to get skills, instead they used their "skillwire"-like uploading system. So that's off topic as far as i'm concerned.
Ravor
*shrugs* And your point is?

Seriously though, I don't really care a wit about what they did on The Matrix, it is a very bad idea to allow people to use VR Training as an excuse to pretend that they have skillwires when they don't.

As for your idea of VR Training, it seems to me that in order for a video game to be helpful on a run you'd have to actually have good and detailed data on guard rotations, building plans, and the like, and even if you can get that info and do a dry run of your mission at the level of grain Shadowrun is set at the "bonus" wouldn't even be noticable.

So basically, use it as a RPing Tool when making yoiur plans.
Maelstrome
what about training in a uv host. wouldnt that go off your characters physical abilities or am i off my rocker?
McAllister
It does if you(r GM) say it does.
tarbrush
QUOTE (Maelstrome @ Jul 1 2009, 01:44 AM) *
what about training in a uv host. wouldnt that go off your characters physical abilities or am i off my rocker?


Ares does this for it's Firewatch teams. So it probably works. It's just a bit pricey.
kigmatzomat
Don't use VR for training, use AR. Given the potential of senseware or even BTL, you can integrate artificial sensory input into your operating life (e.g. the "sunny day" software from the main book.) while still developing muscle memory.

You slot the training sim in your comm and it interfaces with the appropriate smart working gear. That's part of the trick. You either need some form of external sensory system to tell the software what you're actually doing or the tools/devices should.

E.g. for martial arts you may need to get a small drone or hook a set of cameras up to your comm. Then the virtual instructor will be able to see your stance & moves, and then correct your position, you'll even be able to feel his hands moving your shoulders into the correct position via simsense. Learn to drive a car? Your hands are on the wheel, feet on the pedal, the motor revs, but 99% of your sensory input is coming from the chip as your car sits still. Maybe if you run the soft on the car it will move a couple feet in each direction to give you some actual muscle-training for acceleration/deceleration. Pistols skill? The trainersoft chooses a spot on the wall as the target and projects an AR silhouette. The 'soft uses the camera from the smartgun to make sure you were aiming at the right point when you pull the trigger. Recoil is simulated by having the smartgun cycle the slide as if there was a jam. (Doesn't work as well for revolvers, though)

Is it going to be perfect? Nope, you won't have the muscle memory attached to high G maneuvering or truly compensated with the recoil of a .45, but you'll be 90% there, as if you trained at 35mph instead of 70mph or using a .22 trainer instead of a full .45 uzi. So you reflect that by limiting the skill levels available for AR training.

I'd say max of 3 for simulated training. If you can go to a gun range or drive the car at a test track/parking lot then you can get to 6, being more of a simulated trainer with real training.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Seriously though, I don't really care a wit about what they did on The Matrix, it is a very bad idea to allow people to use VR Training as an excuse to pretend that they have skillwires when they don't.

The MAtrix characters are Technomancers - and I think that some of them have a way of emulating skillwires without 'ware...
Ravor
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jul 1 2009, 12:20 AM) *
It does if you(r GM) say it does.


OK first a disclaimer, if you were not responding to me than kindly disregard what I'm about to say...

So? DMs are free to include any ammount of stupidity they wish in their games, but it doesn't make their rulings magically start making sense within context of the rules or fluff.
Ravor
Hmm, good point HappyDaze, and I'll choke down the burning hatard that I have for people complaring The Matrix to Shadowrun for a moment and refine my statement as thus; "It is a very bad idea to allow mundanes to use VR Training as an excuse to pretend that they have skill wires when they don't."
McAllister
Ravor, I like your style. I just wanted to tell you that. Even when your feelings are strong, you aren't disrespectful.

My comment "it does it you(r GM) say it does" was in fact a direct reply to Maelstrome's question about UV nodes, but I'd like to take that point a little further. I've gathered that you don't like comparisons between The Matrix to Shadowrun, and that you think it's a bad idea to allow VR training to simulate skillwires. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't disagree with you. If you were my GM and I were your player, I'd never tell you to that this VR thing is a good idea to use in our game, and I'd like my character to invest in it. I'd ask you, "does this sound cool/reasonable/like a good idea to you?" And from what I imagine, you'd probably give me a firm but respectful "no," and I'd suck it up and work on getting that Biowire echo/skillwire system, etc (with your approval). But maybe Mirilion feel differently. Maybe s/he enjoys drawing parallels between The Matrix and Shadowrun (because different people run/play in different styles of SR games, and that cool), and in that hypothetical game we'd use it and have a lot of fun.

Peace!
Mirilion
Mission simulators, not skillwires. That was my meaning. Something new not covered in the rulebooks as far as I know.
How would you build such a simulator ? What would it require ? What effect would it have on the mission ?
If anything, this would use a bonus system more similar to Tacnet softs, rather than skillwires and skillsofts.

P.S I disagree with Ravor on most things he said here. I think shadowrun IS grainy enough for even little things to make a difference, specially if the GM approves and it means more fun for everyone.
Plus, Ravor, I think you need a relaxing vacation at some tropical resort, with some local girls peeling grapes and fanning you. You will return a changed man.
DireRadiant
I believe a AR/VR Mission Simulator provides bonus dice under the following guidelines.

SR4A p. 225
"Depending on the situation, AR can be a bonus or a detriment. In
most cases, AR will be beneficial simply by providing useful information.
If it directly aids a task you are undertaking, such as overlaying
internal schematics, help features, and real-time diagnostics while repairing
an item, then the gamemaster can apply an appropriate dice
pool modifier (usually +1 but possibly as high as +3) to the test.
AR can also be an important tactical aid. If your runner team is
operating a linked PAN network, sharing data in real time camera
feeds, drone sensor pickups, interactive maps, etc. you're going to have
a tactical edge. At the gamemasters discretion, this advantage can come
in the form of extra dice for certain tests, applying an Initiative bonus to
each meshed member of the team, a Surprise Test for the opposition, etc."

If the players explicitly make the RP effort of doing pre mission simulation of decent quality, I'd give them a higher bonus. Especially if they also run AR during the mission.
Ravor
Mirilion email me your credit card numbers and any necessary security codes and I'll be more then happy to take you up on your offer, after haying season of course.

Seriously though if you are hellbent on building a "Mission Simulator" then all you've got to do is buy a copy of a semi-realistic AR FPS and mod a couple of levels to match the blueprints of the building, although it won't provide you with any bonuses unless you are using a wireless tac-net during the run, and I'd disagree with DireRadiant, running mission sims beforehand shouldn't provide a larger bonus unless you'd also allow skills like Tactical Planing or prehaps even Leadership to also provide such bonuses.
Aberrant
If I remember properly, there is a mention in Unwired of some super-elite types of nodes. One of the rumored examples is a deep VR sim which Ares uses to train their Firewatch teams.

Yeap, just checked. Page 172, under 'Rumored UV Nodes'. Granted, no rules of any sort are presented, but it is mentioned. And drat, beaten. Searched the thread for Unwired only. OOPS!
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Ravor @ Jul 2 2009, 08:35 PM) *
Seriously though if you are hellbent on building a "Mission Simulator" then all you've got to do is buy a copy of a semi-realistic AR FPS and mod a couple of levels to match the blueprints of the building, although it won't provide you with any bonuses unless you are using a wireless tac-net during the run, and I'd disagree with DireRadiant, running mission sims beforehand shouldn't provide a larger bonus unless you'd also allow skills like Tactical Planing or prehaps even Leadership to also provide such bonuses.


I simply point to the relevant text that allows for the possibility. As to how it's implemented in game, I would tend to allow the players to be creative in ways to convince in how they do it, rather then restricting the choice to a particular set of skills. This allows for more latitude in achieving the results, and more fun when the players get to be creative. In fact it's better, since with everyone being creative you can end up with more options to choose from for more fun.

For example, a TM might summon a sprite and ask it to act as the opponent during a VR Sim run to provide spontaneity in the opponent response for the team.

This kind of creative use should be rewarded if the player thinks of it. There are quite a few other ways it could be done and I can't come up with them all so I leave the opportunity in players hand's when possible.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 2 2009, 07:54 AM) *
I believe a AR/VR Mission Simulator provides bonus dice under the following guidelines.

SR4A p. 225
"Depending on the situation, AR can be a bonus or a detriment. In
most cases, AR will be beneficial simply by providing useful information.
If it directly aids a task you are undertaking, such as overlaying
internal schematics, help features, and real-time diagnostics while repairing
an item, then the gamemaster can apply an appropriate dice
pool modifier (usually +1 but possibly as high as +3) to the test.
AR can also be an important tactical aid. If your runner team is
operating a linked PAN network, sharing data in real time camera
feeds, drone sensor pickups, interactive maps, etc. you're going to have
a tactical edge. At the gamemasters discretion, this advantage can come
in the form of extra dice for certain tests, applying an Initiative bonus to
each meshed member of the team, a Surprise Test for the opposition, etc."

If the players explicitly make the RP effort of doing pre mission simulation of decent quality, I'd give them a higher bonus. Especially if they also run AR during the mission.


In the end, though, I would say that this was what a Tactical Network was for...
Ravor
DireRadiant of course creative thinking should be awarded, but the award should fit within the framework of the setting and take into account the limitations of the system. Coming up with a "Mission Simulator" sounds like a perfect reason to hand out some roleplaying Karma or allow a character to train up a skill but in a ruleset where a smartlink that tells you exactly where your bullet will hit, taking into account things like range and wind speeds is only worth +2 practicing your run in a fragging simulation just isn't enough to qualify for a bonus.
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