So I am confused about a couple of things. First why is the drum magazine mod said to be only for SMGs and assault rifles when there is also a shotgun that uses a drum clip? Is there an errata somewher that changes this or is this just a situation of most GMs would just change it for logical reasons. Second why take an extra skill for LMGs when you can get the same effect with an assault rifle and a drum clip and third can you add underbarrel weapons to MGs?

Thanks for the help in advance.

mods that are on the gun from the factory (ie before they're modified) don't have to follow the rules. you could probably change it if you wanted, i don't see any huge problems (for shotguns at least... for a pistol, you'd have a problem).

you would take LMGs for the range. and also because they're the largest weapon that fit on a standard drone mount, and because they can have belt feeds. you don't use an LMG for the same purposes as you would use an assault rifle, that's just silly. also, your LMG uses the same skill as rockets, grenade launchers, etc, whereas your assault rifle skill is certainly useful for a variety of guns, most of them don't blow stuff up in the same way.

and yes, you can mount underbarell weapons on an MG.

Ahhh I see, thank you. Thats a big help.

I would imagine that the obvious answer is that shotguns generally use shells while SMGs/ARs use bullets, and though a drum for one of those will hold either 50 or 100 bullets, a drum for a shotgun will hold under 20 shells. The reasons for the lower count on a shotgun drum is the shell weight, volume & recoil. Can you imagine trying to lug around a weapon that weighs 15 pounds because it has 50+ shells attached? More importantly, after 2-3 shells leave that drum, you are going to need a lot of strength & skill to keep the rest on target.

Though, most important of all, if you need more than a full shotgun magazine, you brought the wrong weapon.

Oh, you mean like this?

Personally, I'd allow someone to put a drum feed on a pistol, but it'd be about as stupid in SR as it is in reality.

Machine Pistol+Drum = +5 Concealment. So it's bulkier than a real SMG, has far less range, and utterly defeats the point of using a sidearm in the first place.

What's not to like!

So if you didn't guess yet the reason I am asking these question is because I am working on a heavy weapons type character. While looking up guns in arsenal I thought A minigun would be fun to have so why not get the one thats ready at chargen. Then I noticed it said firing a mini gun causes a - 14 dice pool modifier. My question is simple. Why? Why get a minigun if it kills your dice pool before you even fire?

Let's see how much recoil compensation you can get:

- Gas Vent: 3
- Cyberarm gyromount: 3
- STR >= 10: 2
- One anchor in each foot: 2
- Hip pad: 1
- Heavy barrel: 1
- Personalized grip: 1

TOTAL: 13

That's only a -2 dice pool. If you can pump your STR up to 14 (redlining is your friend...), you cancel it all.

But the main purpose of a mingun is suppressive fire, not sniping, even if it's fun to lodge 15 bullets in the same hole

..normal Gyromount Stabilization gives 6 RC..

Underbarrel weights don't stack with gyros.

Just get the full gyromount for 6 RC so you can drop the cybrearm mount and 1 more pint of RC

The external gyro-stabilization is really clumsy: can you afford 5 minutes before being ready to fire? It might be OK for some heavy assault troopers, but hardly for runners. With my build, you can bring your minigun along when raiding Cyberdyne Systems.

Or get a drone next to you to fire the weapon. It seems that it can ignore recoil...

If your lugging a minigun you'll be in heavy combat armor for sure thus why not tke the extra time pre run to strap on the gyoromount. Really minguns arent nrmolay slteathly however if you mod one right then can be but the you need another 3 RC cos no gas vent

You can't use sound suppressors on Machine Guns, which the minigun is. All you can do to "silence" it by RAW is electronic firing and subsonic ammunition. Slow Ammunition in a Machine gun however sounds pretty silly to me

I believe Arsenal recommends using the vehicle's Body as built-in recoil compensation as an optional, and entirely logical, rule.

Only if the weapon is very large and the drone very small.

While true, I think the rule still works well on almost all sizes of vehicle, particularly when the weapon can be further modified to increase recoil comp.

Generally using this rule is just a waste of time and money for me. Also it favors the Ingram White Knight a bit too much IMHO. For cars it is irrelevant anyway because a weapon cannot produce that much recoil, and Combat Drones should be able to do more than suppressive fire.

I would say you can't do anything for the minigun: even if you could silence the firing, there would still be the noise of the rotating barrels.

But anyway, my point about stealth was not about using the gun stealthily, but being able to bring it along in a stealthy run so you can still force your way out when things go wrong. That's why there are troll runners at all. In an open combat situation, it is true that you can get cheaper firepower from drones.

If you can hide the minigun you can probably hide a gyrostabilization unit as well. I have not read anything that the harness is particularly bulky.

Yeah, but it takes a little longer to but on a gyrotabilizaton unit, then it does to just grap the minigun from the gym-back.

And thus Physical Mask is the most devastating combat spell ever.

If your mage can beat the cameras' and goggles' OR.
BTW I don't know if the Physical Mask Spell changes equipment.

With great power comes great drain codes.

If you're going to make a heavy weapons character, make sure to pack an MGL-6 with gas grenades or something, so that you can be quiet when you need to. Most situations don't call for a minigun, and using a minigun will get you into big trouble.

Well the game is campier then usual runs. Less trench coat and more mohawk. Like the A-team...but we actually hit things with our bullets. Ya i dropped the minigun idea cuz while the idea is cool the execution is too troublesome. Actually I already got a underbarre MGL 6 for my LMG. Sometimes overkill is the only kind you can trust. Anyways as a small favor could you guys look over what i have so far?

Name: *Pending*
Nick Name: Hector
Troll 40

Stats 140 bp

BOD: 5
AGI: 4(6)
REC: 4(6)
STR:5
CHR: 3
INT: 3
LOG: 4(6)
WIL: 3
EDG: 3

ESS: 1.365

INI: 7(9)/11
PAS: 1(3)/4

Track 11/10

Active Skills: 188 bp

Biotech Group 4
Heavy Weapons (spec purchased, havent chosen) 5
Automatics (Same) 4
Armorer (Firearms) 5
Perception (Visual) 4
Infiltration (Urban) 4
Gymnastics (Parkour) 4
Unarmed Combat (Subdual) 4
Negotiations (Bargaining) 3

Knowledge/Language Skills: 21 free points (Have no idea what to buy)

Positive Qualities: 0

Negative Qualities: +35
Day Job (2500/20hrs)
Allergy (Uncommon,Mild)
Enemy (4)

Resources 50

Augs:

Cerebral Booster 2
Sleep Regulator
Reflex Recorder Skill Group (Biotech)
Muscle Toner 2
Bone Lacing (Plastic)
Wired Reflexes 2

Contacts 9

Denzel Groma (Fixer) 3/3
Shannon Ohzel (Street Shaman/Preacher)

8 points left over and I have no idea what to do with them.

mmm edge of 3 clearly a low power game...:ducks before any thing is thrown at him:: but no cool build

I know its a joke but does edge make that much of a difference? I thought 3 was a safe bet, I guess I could get it to 4 by getting rid of a spec and using the last of my points.

This is only my...third build I think and so I am still trying to get a handle on the rules and what works best. I think he is solid at shooting, repairing weapons/armor, and can do a decent job at being a medic but with others throwing 15-17 dice in their specialties I feel kinda weak. Anyway to boost medical skills?

LOG should be 4(6) otherwise the troll could not have LOG 6. Same for AGI.Also you should really consider maxing your BP allotment for Attributes. Skills are cheap with Karma and Attributes aren't, especially with SR4A.

Specializations are also cheaper to buy with karma than with BP.

Minimum BOD for a combat character :shocked: and reaction not that high either? He's gonna die fast.

A Parcours Troll. I want to see that.

Are you sure you want an Enemy(4)? Is this for 4 or for 20BP? If it is the latter you will be dead right away.

Haha sorry I didnt put the brackets for everything. Yes it would be 4(6) logic and agility. I guess I was feeling lazy lol, dont we all sometimes? Well what stats should I boost?

I did not know that, should I buy them later then?

Well what would you consider standard for body and reaction on a combat character? Should I get reaction enhancers (or which ever one was compatible with WR) if I have enough cash left over? That would probably require getting born rich since my last 40k is going into gear. For the record combat is not my specialty. My last 2 characters were a technomancer and face/back up combat build. While the later could hold its own in a fight that was not its purpose.

Haha its the reason I made it. Got this mental image of a gymnastic medic jumping from roof top to roof top healing the sick and killing the d-bags that did it. Very robin hood esqe I suppose but that wasnt the original intention.

Have an understanding with the GM. Took it with one of the main BBEGs so while I will be somewhat the center of attention hostility wise it wouldn't be to the point where I would regret taking it. Just make it hard enough to know how much they hate me.

..MGL-6 as Underbarrel Weapon??.. From Arsenal (pg. 153) "The ammo capasity of the underbarrel weapon is HALVED (round up)
and it does not profit from any of the weapon's recoil compensation...." so only 3 shots from MGL-6..
Install MGL-12 instead (6 shots), and if you really want to blow things up,buy GL-67 (Arsenal pg 31),With Smartlink,Personalized grip
and (with GM's permission) Firing Selection Change SA or BF)..

Heh, see. Told ya combat wasn't my specialty. I will probably go with the MGL 12 since the 67 has a 14F. Will probably get that later for when I really want a bang.

Doesnt that mean they would all be halved so it doesnt matter which I choose?

Yes,it would be halved anyway. GL-67 can be bought in charc. creation with Restricted Gear quality (5 BP)

You need a minimum BOD and STR of 8 to be able to carry your LMG without an external gyro. With STR 10 you get a second point of recoil compensation.

Maybe you can forget about Automatics. Heavy weapons covers all your needs since you can pack an MGL-6 as a sidearm.

For medicine, cybertechnology and armorer, you can never be as efficient as a specialized contact because the heaviest jobs will require a facility. You can't afford one, let alone 3 different ones.

Don't worry too much about your First Aid dice pool: your medkit rating adds to the pool. But you might want to have the skill at a higher rank since it is the maximum wounds you can cure. If you want, you can get an Encephalon to boost your techie dice pools.

For the stats, I could come up with something like:

BOD 9
AGI 4(6)
REA 4(6)
STR 8(10)
CHA 2
INT 2
LOG 4(6)
WIL 3

Body 8 and Strenght 8 for carry LMG is OPTIONAL rule..
..and for Medkit.. From Augmentation (pg.124)"The maxium number of First Aid can heal is the Rating of the
medical equipment or the First Aid skill of the character, whichever is higher" so carry Medkit rating 6 all the time..

That is an optional rule. Ask your GM if he wants to use it. Otherwise cram together ¥3000 for the gyro stabilization.

I agree. also Heavy weapons aren't exactly close combat weapons . you might not always be near your teammates to heal them.

Another suggestion would be to go Ork instead of troll. It's cheaper and you don't have an AGI penalty moreover gear does not have to be custom fitted for you.

Yup. They cost 2BP but only 2 Karma each. Unless the cost is rating dependent in Karma everything else costs BP*2 in Karma

Sting: So does it really matter which I buy then?

Heh, already bought 3 rating 6 medkits. You never know when your going to need a spare. Personaly experiece has taught me this.

Dakka: Where does it say I need a gyromount for an LMG? Last time I checked weren't most lmgs squad support weapons like the SAW which are man portable? If thats the case I will drop heavy weapons and just get an assault rifle with a drum. Maybe keep it if I really want a grenade launcher but that is looking doubtful.

I have a workshop for medicine and armorer but I didnt know I needed a seperate one for cybertechnology. Wouldn't it all fall under a medical facility? Actually I tried doing it with an ork and I went over by I think 10 points. I would give you the math break down but I had to delete my combat medic file cuz somehow it was corrupted. Yay for doing it all over again.

Ahhh alright. Maybe that would be best to buy them later then.

Ok, weird messed up message fixed.

Hey! This is as optional as the Arsenal rules!

"Groups are free to use any or all of the advanced rules in this chapter as they see fit to add further depth to various aspects of medical treatment and implantation."

Seriously, if you want to play a medic, try to convince the GM not to play this rule, otherwise it's lame

"Sure, you can do that, but any grunt with a 600 piece of gear will be almost as good as you."

Any Grunt?? Grunt a) Logic 3 and no First Aid skill + rating 6 medkit = rolling 8 die (default -1) 2+6
(need LOT of Success to heal 6 boxes of damage.)

Grunt b) Logic 3 and First Aid skill 4 + rating 6 medkit = rolling 13 die..
you do the math..

Buy Medical Shop.(Augmentation pg. 124) it have eq. enough to count as Medkit 8. Quick Healer Quality (10 BP) gives you +2 die to all
healing tests..just remember to buy LOT of Medkit supplies...

OK, maybe "Grunt" was a bit too much, but your comparison is unfair. You can just take 1 rank in First Aid so you don't have to default, and that's already 10 dice. If the PC already has high Logic (let's say 5 for an unaugmented hermetic mage), he gets 12 dice. That's an average 4 wounds for a mere 4 BP, and you can get to 6 wounds by tossing in some Edge.

Of course, a specialized medic can get some 16+ dice, but that makes little difference for a huge cost. There are not always 6 wounds to heal. Healing 2 more wounds does not always decreases the wound penalties. And Edge will not help since the medic already hits the maximum. First Aid brings 1 die for each 4BP. The medkit brings 1 die for each 0.02BP.

If you really want to be fair, both of them will soon get a Specialization in Combat Damage. That just pushes the dice pools higher and makes the difference less noticeable.

Don't get me wrong:that optional rule is great if no PC wants to specialize in first aid. But it carries a high risk of frustrating the medic when he faces another big brain who can steal the medic role on top of his normal one, and even the sammies manage to get along without him.

It is always good thing that team have at least 2 persons who know how to heal.
Mundane character can heal max 6 boxes(Medkit rating) physical AND stun wounds first,then magical healing take care of the rest..

Of course you don't need a gyromount, but a) according to the optional rule in Arsenal you do, if you want to fire it from a standing position and b) it is really cool to be able to shoot full bursts without penalty even when running, with two pieces of gear right out of the BBB(Ingram White Knight+Gyro Stabilization=9RC + 2 Dice to compensate the running modifier)
Also you could just as well do that with a HMG if you get it to 5 RC(Gas Vent III, personalized grip, shock pad). More Dakka is always good

sorry for the double post. Is there a way to delete it?

2xburst from LMG= 5 RC and IngramWhite Knight have 5(6) RC, add Underbarrel Weight (1 RC)--> 6(7) RC
Now you can run (2 RC) and fire Bursts (2xburst) (5 RC) with no penalties..

For two short bursts (three bullets each) that is correct. A short (3) and a long (6) burst cannot be fully compensated. The second burst is at -4. A full burst (10) is at -6. In no way can the setup of the White Knight compensate the running modifier. A white Knight with gyrostablization can compensate both as can any normal FA weapon whch is modified as I wrote above. HV weapons and miniguns are a bit more tricky.

That need 8 Body&Strenght to fire Heavy weapons is the most retarded optional rule in any of the books.
With it you need Body&Strenght two higher than human natural maximum to fire a freaking grenade pistol.

That's because they copied it too quickly from SR3, where grenade launchers were not heavy weapons.

If you go that way, considering a pistol as a heavy weapon sounds pretty retarded in the first place, even if it's great news for the heavy weapon specialist