If you purchase qualities during character-creation, you pay the approbriate BP-cost and go for it. Up to here no problem. If your GM is a nice guy, he can award you with a quality during gameplay but you anyway have to spend the double BP-cost in karma for it? I really don´t get it, at least for some qualities. If you want to learn something new, you have to spend karma, no problem. But if a ghoul touches me, i cannot do anything against beeing infected and have to pay off the costs anyway even assuming that i don´t want to be transformed and that it is something that happens automatically? Makes no sense to me. If i don´t want to be infected, wouldn´t that count more as a flaw and give me points to spend? That is quite like the GM would say "you get a flu, pay 5 karma" (basically) Is there a section that i missed in the book?

Well, just as you can only get qualities in play with GM permission, you only have to pay for them if your GM wishes.

That said, it is a game balance thing. Being turned into a ghoul gives you lots of stuff, significant increases to body, reaction, strength, and willpower, enhanced senses, and natural weapons. The stat penalties only matter if your logic and/or charisma where at our near your metatype max allready, and the reduced senses is easily delt with. That leaves the dietary requirement, which is mostly a role play thing, and dual natured as your negative qualities(which has some advantages).

The fact is, your character, like it or not, just got more powerful. He may not like what he has become, but the transformation has given him improvements over his peers, and improves must be paid for with karma, that is how karma works. If I had a player who became infected, I would siphon off half of all karma gained until they paid for the quality, and if they really didn't way to pay, I wouldn't give them the advantages of the type.

That would be a solution. Only sucking half of the karma away would be something i could live with. Sometimes it can be so easy....if the GM allows it.^^

That is still soft: per RAW, it's 100% of earnt karma untill paid back

Yeah right, but on the other side, the text says "the GM grants you an new quality", but if i have to pay for it, i wouldn´t call it "granted", i would call it "worked for".

Welcome to the world of point-based RPGs !!

It's a game balance thing.

In GURPS it used to be that people would leave piles of money around because if they picked it up they'd become Wealthy and then could be expected to pay the character points for it [according to the rules].

I have one player who is a Drake. I am making him pay half karma.

Trust me, half karma isn't that soft. Besides which - he built his character so poorly he is gimped into almost utter uselessness (Dice pools of 7 on average for nearly all his skills). I feel sorry for him as it is.

- J.

Actually a gm for a game I am getting into has Mission Only qualities. Their special qualities you get by accomplishing special missions that he doesnt just give to us. Takes a bit of putting clues given through different missions together, looking between the lines on missions to see if there is a hidden subplot and going for it, etc. These arent all the time, in fact their kinda rare, but the point is their special edges (or flaws if you fail) that you gain through a lot of work and paying attention to detail that you don't need to pay for. He's been doing em for a while and so far they work out just fine. We actually started the idea when we were playing ratchet and clank while running a small one shot DnD campaing in the background. First game with achievements inspired it. I love em, especially because they really pay off hard work and attention to detail.

reminds me of the quest perks in fallout 3.

Indeed, pretty fun stuff. Idk why but getting that special quality that no one else can feels like a better reward then nuyen or any piece of gear. Of course they could get it to if they helped but not everyone was willing to risk their butt on a mission that might night even be one considered perk worthy.

I'm of the opinion this is a rather short-sighted view of playing a ghoul and the negative qualities gained from HMHVV infection.

First, you have to eat 1% of your body weight, per week, in metahuman flesh to gain nutrition. Depending on your race, this could be eating a pound of flesh a week or an entire 6th month old child. In addition to this, the meat cannot be cooked. Depending on your GM, you could be forced to make willpower rolls to avoid stealing children, eating teammates or gobbling innocents on a run.

Second, at least half of the people you meet will try to kill you. If you are in an area that dislikes ghouls, everyone is trying to kill you. Being run out of town by the local Humanis Policlub & the Ork Underground is something only a ghoul could accomplish. Sure, you can try to be a covert ghoul, but your astral signature is going to frag that plan the second you run into a mage.

Third, you are blind. Cybereyes (depending on GM) can make this problem go away for mundanes, but mage ghouls could have problems hitting things on the physical plane.

Fourth, you lose all bioware & some cyberware. If your character had big nuyen in standard and cultured bioware, your character just became a whole hell of a lot less powerful. Cyber like muscle replacement & wired reflexes could also be shot depending on GM cruelty.

I'm of the opinion that being a ghoul is a pretty debilitating condition unless the ghoul is living in a ghoul haven with a bunch of other similarly situated "people."

My own opinion is that the ghoul quality should be bought if it is taken at char-gen, where the player can presumably build the character around that quality, or later, if the character deliberately gets himself infected to take advantage of a ghoul's abilities.

But I wouldn't make a player who gets infected from a ghoul attack pay for the quality - that's pure dickery. Turning into a ghoul completely messes up a lot of builds - an elven face who turns into a ghoul will need lots of karma and effort to dig out of that hole and be semi-effective again. I certainly wouldn't charge the player for being a ghoul, in addition to all of the other detrimental effects on 'ware, Essense, contacts, etc.

I forget what is the circumstances for getting infected under fourth edition. Was fliping through botht he main book and the companion and I didn't see it, although admittedly I wasn't looking that hard for it at the time but this discussion has sparked in me an interest for doing a ghoul oriented run.

Yep, this mirrors my thoughts exactly. If it's the character's (or player's, at character creation) decision that nets them the quality, they pay for it. If it's my decision as GM, or if it comes about as an unexpected or unwanted result of gameplay, the karma debt is on me. Characters that go seeking out Infected in order to become Infected themselves will need to pay that karma cost, but characters that take reasonable precautions but still wind up Infected after some bad dice rolls at least don't get insult added to the injury. That goes for other qualities, too. If it's a reward from me, they don't have to pay for it. If it's something they're actively seeking out, they'd better be prepared to spend for it.

Sorry for reanimating this discussion, but i am about to create an musician adept and i wanted to choose some qualities and flaws and i still really don´t get the point about the BP-costs. I want him to arrive in Seattle, because his agent managed to get him a record-contract at a label on the west-coast. I wanted to represent this with the "day-job" flaw. Because he is new and right at the beginning, i refused to get the "fame"-quality as well as a higher rating than 2 for the day-job. If i now e.g. break the contract (because i have a longer run, get shot and have to recover etc.) this flaw would be broken. Paying karma to get rid of this flaw seems like nonsense, so what would happen? Would the GM switch the "day job" to another flaw with the same amount on BP-costs (like "wanted", "enemies" etc) or would you simply say "you lose your job"?

Yes.

You got BP to spend for the negative flaw. You need to pay it off, or have something negative affect your character in game play. The negative effect is subject to whatever works in your game, no single answer.

In this case it might be the in debt flaw for the legal fees and such it cost you for breaking the contract.

Generally, when you get rid of a negative quality, you pay it off. There are a lot of them that would be relatively simple to get rid of otherwise. Have a day job? Quit! In debt? Pay it off and be done! Impaired sense? Get cyberware! While I wouldn't charge someone karma if they got unwillingly infected with the ghoul virus, I would make a player buy off a flaw that they got rid of - either that, or replace it with an equivalent-value flaw. It's the only way to be fair to everyone.

Day Job is a negative quality. If you fail to meet it's requirements, you are going to have to spend karma or else allow the GM to assign you a replacement negative quality. It's really that simple.

I expect myself to wake up with a tail, the day after i skipped my job....i can feel it.^^