The text says:

Suffering
To perform this ordeal, the magician must voluntarily subject
herself to a test of extreme physical and mental hardship,
such as being hung from a tree for nine days, suffering crucifixion,
stepping through an astral gateway to some nightmare
metaplane, or enduring ritual torture. In all cases, the ordeal
should be horrific and test the limits of the magician’s willpower
and stamina.
The gamemaster may choose either to detail the ordeal
through roleplaying or to circumvent such potentially disturbing
matters by asking for a Willpower + Logic (2) Test and a
Body + Strength (2) Test. Success in both is required to complete
the ordeal.
The initiate emerges from the ordeal wiser and strengthened
but also marked by her trials. She gains 10 BP worth of
Negative qualities (p. 80, SR4), chosen by the gamemaster.

Do i at least get the BP so that i can spend them, or do i only get the "value" of 10BP of negative qualities?

Edit: could the GM also benefit me with other negative qualities like from SURGE, etc.? I really fear what could come out in the end. Should the flaw somehow fit to the ordeal like a mental disorder after i had been on the metaplane of nightmares, or could i also come out of this as an albino?

No...? You get the standard discount on initiation. The 10bp of negative qualities is the tradeoff for said discount. (We are talking about magical initiation, right?)



If you have a jerk GM, you should fear. However yes, the downside should fit the ordeal. Odin wasn't all there after being hung from the tree, after all. With that being said, it's magic. I think it would be interesting to be albino after going to the metaplane of nightmares. You know how people's hair can turn white? You just went to the place nightmares come (or flee?) from.

Yeah, this could be funny, but not worth the karma-benefit. It wouldn´t make sense to excell in magic and coming out of it a a drooling zombie because the GM gives you a mental disorder. Sometimes the rules suck.^^

Then don't choose this particular ordeal.

Not really. The point IS that your giving something of yourself up. If your GM is a good storyteller, it should work out "alright." (It's never "good," but that's why they are called disadvantages.) Odin ended up with a mental disorder and physical handicap. I don't want to think of all the suffering Dresden (Dresden Files) has taken. Look at the Sith in the Knights of the Old Republic Games: THIER Gms hated them (but gave them fitting penalties, for the way they were playing their characters).

Sucks for powergamers? Possibly. Super cool (potentially) for storytelling? Yes.

I get the impression that the Suffering Ordeal is designed for characters trying to get a high level initiation who've already exhausted the other ordeals they could take. Of course they could still always use Deed, but that's reliant on the GM being nice.

Frankly I don't know why someone would still choose it over say, a metaplane quest, but maybe when your going for your 7th initiation grade the trade-off looks better.

Also, it could just be in their for people who want a character like Wednesday from winternight. Story-wise it's got some potential. *shrug*

Clearly however, Metaplane Quest & Deed are the 'best' from a min/max standpoint. You just have to succeed in their 'quest' to get it.

There shouldn´t be rules in the game, that have no uses or more disadvantages than others. Otherwise nobody would use them. And i don´t like senseless things.^^

They are all equally difficult if your GM is a dick.

Metaplanar Quest: Your task is to travel to the Metaplane of Death!

Aceticism: How much Survival do you have? Right, you're hit by a bus while scavenging roadkill.

Familiar: How much Arcana do you have? Right, back to the Metaplanes.

Oath: You're probably not in a magical group. If you are, they either kick you out or force you to swear fealty to Darth Vader.

Masterpiece: On the off-chance you actually have the Arcana or Artisan skills, your enemies steal it and use it as a sympathetic link for ritual torment.

The only "safe" ones are Geas, Sacrifice and Meditation, as they don't run on GM fiat. The former two allow you to pick your poison, the latter turns your twinked stats against you. That's why they're called "ordeals", and why they're optional.

So there should be only one weapon of each class(or maybe just one melee and one ranged), only one spell for for every rule effect(damage, minus to dicepools etc.) , only one type for every vehicle class etc.

Where's the fun and roleplaying potential in that.

Right.^^

The ordeal of suffering does have an advantage, just not at lower-level initiations.

Of course, all of them have their uses: lower karma costs. But except if you like fluff, nobody that is mentally sane, would choose them because the negative sides are too big (virtually, never underestimate the wrath of the GM)^^

Right, suffering only breaks even on karma if you are going for initiate grade 30!!! (save 20 karma, gain 10 BP {20 karma} worth of negative qualities)

If you're desperate to save a few Karma, may I suggest the ordeal of coercion?

That's my favorite one!

The ordeal of what?

If it's what I think it is basically you whine and bribe your DM until he relents.

Ahaa...ok, i know this. ^^

I was thinking lead pipe and pictures of your GM's family, but bribes would probably work, too.

*chuckles* True but remember that your methoid works both ways and in order to be a DM you have to first cut your own blackened heart out.

GM: "Ha ha ha! Your pathetic attempt to coerce me with threats to my family has failed! I killed them all and bathed in their warm blood to gain their power, and now you have no hold over me! PAY THE DAMN KARMA, BITCH!!!"

... or something.

That's why it's my favorite one, I'm the GM

No, seriously, if your GM is such a dick that you can't do Deed OR Metaplane quest, then Sacrifice begins to look ok.

But really if your GM's that much of a dick, why are you still at that table?

Lack of alternatives?

Ouch?

There is literally nothing that can really save you if your at an unfriendly table, the GM literally holds all the cards AND makes the rules. If they don't want you to initiate, they'll find a way to stop you, or make it cost so much you wish you hadn't. If you can't trust them to give you a metaplane quest that you have a chance at, none of the other methods will turn out well for you either.

I think our GM´s are quite fair, but if they see a weakness, they go for it. So you only stand a chance by negating all negative alternatives and "outrun" the GM. It´s just a little bit stressy being alerted all the time, especially when it is 2 o´clock in the morning when you are tired or if you don´t have your "serious"-day. In this case, it can be over quite quick. Unfortunately, i have to live with it. Adapt or die.^^

Yeah really. 20 karma worth of Negative Stuff chosen BY THE GM for a measly 5 karma discount on initiation (your 6th or so).

I would think that most GM would be willing to negotiate with the player about what negative qualities the character will get from the ordeal, at lest those who aren't total dick heads.

True, but are you willing to trade 20 karma for less than 10?

If it makes the story better, absolutely.

I played a blood mage, so I couldn't join a magic group (mostly because the black mage wasn't able to play). So I did everything I could to lower my initiation costs. As far as the character went, he wasn't cackling, insanely evil - he just didn't know any other way of controlling his magic. So he hated himself, he hated what he had to do, and what he had become. He went ascetic, and then took suffering for an ordeal. He was tortured, and the GM gave me the Judas quality in return - and it worked out very well. One of the other players had been tortured and cursed by blood mages. I spent a lot of time convincing him I wasn't like every other blood mage, helped him remove his curse, all of that.

Then at the end I see the blood spirit that had been summoned out of his former team member, and that had been haunting my dreams. Hating what I was doing, but wanting to be with the blood spirit I levitated the other character and then dropped him, but not before he could activate the autoinjector full of cyanide that had been implanted in my cyberheart. I died, he lived, and the blood spirit taunted me all the while.

Of course, I'm not a power gamer and breaking a system doesn't seem fun to me.

Hey, I like that, it was intriguing... Kudos...

If i get atleast some say on what those neg qualities will be, then definedly i would as that makes for a good story material and adds nice extra meat to the character.