StealthSigma
Jul 15 2009, 05:23 PM
Background:
I expect a few people to gripe about this and say something along the lines of you should be playing cyberpunk 2020 instead of Shadowrun, quit destroying our game. Shadowrun is, like any pen and paper game, free to customize however the players and GM see fit, but I understand that some people dislike changes systems, but I ask that you at least present an open mind to this.
My GM has removed magic from our Shadowrun game and does not care how low your essence score goes. Essentially the stat no longer matters. This has, in my opinion, completely destroyed the cost balance of using bioware over cyberware equivalents. The only remaining advantage to using bioware is in concealability, and the cost increases I feel are more due to essence balancing against magic rather than the concealability of the bioware.
The following are good examples because the provide direct comparisons.
For example. Muscle Replacements is 5,000:nuyen: for +1 strength and +1 agility. The equivalent in bioware is 15,000:nuyen:. If I use the cost ratio established by muscle toner and muscle augmentation, muscle replacements effectively have a ~2,333:nuyen: cost for strength and a ~2,666:nuyen: cost for agility. So is the concealability value of strength worth ~4,666:nuyen: and the concealability of agility worth ~5,333:nuyen:.
Reaction enhancers, wired reflexes, and synaptic boosters is another good example. From reaction enhancers, we can figure out that the cost of +1 reaction is worth about 10,000:nuyen:. That means that in wired reflexes, the first additional IP costs 1,000:nuyen:. The second additional IP costs 11,000:nuyen: (32,000 - 20,000 [Rea] - 1,000 [1st IP] = 11,000). The third additional IP costs 58,000:nuyen: (100,000 - 30,000 [Rea] - 12,000 [Previous IPs] = 58,000). The problem is the synaptic boosters are a linear growth, while wired reflexes aren't. I question why this is the case since the stat growth is linear anyway. However if I subtract those costs from synaptic boosters, you get 69,000/128,000/140,000 for the cost of concealability.
Here's my question to you guys. Without magic, and without essence, the usage of bioware is mostly stupid. I believe the concealability of bioware alone does not justify the price increases. What are some of your suggestions for cost reductions? Obviously bioware should still be more expensive than cyberware due to concealability, but how much?
Adarael
Jul 15 2009, 05:34 PM
In general, I would suggest halving the price, or cutting it to 1/3rd. The concealability bonus should be worth the difference in high-paranoia games, as is the the ability of it to 'repair' as you heal, unlike Cyberware.
Mr. Mage
Jul 15 2009, 05:35 PM
Maybe you should see if instead of having no Essnence, have an increased essence instead, since essence doesn't only tie into Magic/Resonance (do you have Technomancers? Because less of an essence harms them too, so not worrying about essence really makes them powerful). Essence is supposed to represent you "life force" so to speak, and the more cyberware you have the less "human" you become.
Summerstorm
Jul 15 2009, 05:38 PM
This is only since this edition. Aside from Magic-not magic, bioware should ALWAYS be weaker than cyberware.
Concealability is a big bonus, but bioware has more: normaly bioware nearly never had bad effects and repaired itself. Cyberware stress had to be repaired, and overloaded your system. (For example the insane twitchyness with a Move-by-Wire and Reflex Booster was horrible). People with excessive cyberware were often a wreck after a few months or years. Bioware was smooth, elegant but had some limits. (Only 2 dice from Synaptic Accelerator against 2-4 from cyberware which gave reaction too, or the eyes which could only give you natural sightmods)
Now with the new edition somehow cells and smushy stuff can be as strong and durable and fast as hightech. That goes against a bit against the Cyber...punk and takes away big chunks of the usefulness of the cyber stuff. (It is not only the money, cyberware were often just REALLY better and that was fine). I would really just thinking about taking some bioware max levels and secondary effects away. If you want to be faster than anything else in the animal kingdom, you have to get some computers and wires into your body. Bioware needs to get limited back a bit.
thearistocrat
Jul 15 2009, 07:46 PM
Boosted Reflexes & Synaptic Accelerator; the winning combination is comprised of both cyber & bioware.
Adarael
Jul 15 2009, 07:50 PM
Which is so true. But sadly, no Boosted Reflexes in SR4, which is what Sigma is using.
Stahlseele
Jul 15 2009, 09:32 PM
Wait . . if Essence does not matter anymore, why would anybody take the more expansive bio versions anyway?
If bio is too expansive, use the cyber-stuff as long as it can do what you need it to do. you'll only have to buy something expansive if bio can do something you need that cyber can't do.
StealthSigma
Jul 16 2009, 04:40 AM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 15 2009, 05:32 PM)
Wait . . if Essence does not matter anymore, why would anybody take the more expansive bio versions anyway?
If bio is too expansive, use the cyber-stuff as long as it can do what you need it to do. you'll only have to buy something expansive if bio can do something you need that cyber can't do.
Well, technically gene transfusions from Augmentation would be a reason to go with bioware so that you have a chance at getting 5 successes on your edge + essence roll to get the gene transfusion permanently....
Otherwise, you're correct, hence why I'm looking for what would be a reasonable cost reduction. Gameplay wise you still don't have to deal with the maintenance or concealability issues of cyberware.
Thematically some people would also want to make bioware only characters, even if they aren't magicians, adepts, or technomancers, but there's going for a concept and throwing money away. Spending 15,000 for what would cost 5,000 is silly, and spending 160,000 for what would cost 32,000 in cyber is just plain stupid.
Summerstorm
Jul 16 2009, 04:51 AM
Not really. People buy chocolate for 20 bucks, cars for a million, or houses for 10 million. Even if they can get something with the same specs for muchmuch less. It's a matter of taste, feeling and image.
Why wouldn't you pay four times the prize if you can get promised: "It will feel absolutely natural and AWESOME, it will heal itself. You never need to adjust it, or repair it. Oh and i heard the "OtherbrandCyberstuff TM" thingies squeak alot."... IF you have the money?
But i agree that bio and cyberware in this state are a little weird right now. Like i say: Bioware for convenience, image, and a better life. Cyberware either for cost issues or for over-the top insane performance (For much money AND healthproblems)
McAllister
Jul 16 2009, 04:53 AM
So the question is how much the advantages of bioware (less maintenance, more concealable) are worth?
Take the cyberware equivalent of whatever bioware you're thinking of. Multiply the cost of the cyberware by 1.2 if it's unrestricted, by 1.5 if it's restricted and by 2 if it's forbidden. Examples below.
Unrestricted -- Attention Coprocessor 3: 9,000 cyberware, so the bioware equivalent (Reception Enhancer 3) should be 9,000 x 1.2, or 10,800
Restricted -- Dermal Plating 3: 15,000 cyberware so the bioware equivalent (Orthoskin 3) should be 15,000 x 1.5, or 22,500.
Forbidden -- Voice Modulator Secondary Pattern 6: 37,500 so the bioware equivalent (vocal range enhancer) should be 37,500 x 2, or 75,000
Seems like reasonable guidelines to me.
StealthSigma
Jul 16 2009, 10:35 AM
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jul 16 2009, 12:53 AM)
So the question is how much the advantages of bioware (less maintenance, more concealable) are worth?
Take the cyberware equivalent of whatever bioware you're thinking of. Multiply the cost of the cyberware by 1.2 if it's unrestricted, by 1.5 if it's restricted and by 2 if it's forbidden. Examples below.
Unrestricted -- Attention Coprocessor 3: 9,000 cyberware, so the bioware equivalent (Reception Enhancer 3) should be 9,000 x 1.2, or 10,800
Restricted -- Dermal Plating 3: 15,000 cyberware so the bioware equivalent (Orthoskin 3) should be 15,000 x 1.5, or 22,500.
Forbidden -- Voice Modulator Secondary Pattern 6: 37,500 so the bioware equivalent (vocal range enhancer) should be 37,500 x 2, or 75,000
Seems like reasonable guidelines to me.
So since cybereyes with low light vision cost 1,500, and cat's eyes are unrestricted, cat's eyes should cost 1,800 instead of 7,500?
Mäx
Jul 16 2009, 01:55 PM
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jul 16 2009, 07:53 AM)
Forbidden -- Voice Modulator Secondary Pattern 6: 37,500 so the bioware equivalent (vocal range enhancer) should be 37,500 x 2, or 75,000
So vocal range enchacer becomes 63k
more expensive, way to go att lowering bioware prices.
AS for the topic of essence not mattering in a game, that makes for some pretty damn scary ware monsters straight out the chargen as you can get every piece of ware for half price as second hand ware.
StealthSigma
Jul 16 2009, 02:18 PM
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 16 2009, 08:55 AM)
So vocal range enchacer becomes 63k
more expensive, way to go att lowering bioware prices.
AS for the topic of essence not mattering in a game, that makes for some pretty damn scary ware monsters straight out the chargen as you can get every piece of ware for half price as second hand ware.
Can you even get second hand non-cultured bioware, I don't recall the rules from Augmentation on second hand.
ZeroPoint
Jul 16 2009, 04:07 PM
Yes you can get secondhand non-cultured bioware. At least according to RAW.
By the way, I am GMing this campaign. I have restricted the purchase of second-hand bio/cyber ware.
Vertaxis
Jul 16 2009, 04:21 PM
No essence....
That full conversion borg a-la Rifts is looking much better now.
CodeBreaker
Jul 16 2009, 04:26 PM
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jul 16 2009, 03:18 PM)
Can you even get second hand non-cultured bioware, I don't recall the rules from Augmentation on second hand.
You can only get second hand non-cultured bioware of basic grade, no alpha ware or better.
StealthSigma
Jul 16 2009, 05:21 PM
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Jul 16 2009, 12:26 PM)
You can only get second hand non-cultured bioware of basic grade, no alpha ware or better.
But without essence, there is 0 reason to use alpha/beta/delta grade, thus 2nd hand doesn't matter if it provides the same benefit.
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