Clearly first aid, medicine, and rest heal magical drain.

"Note that sorcery cannot heal damage resulting from magical Drain." - SR 20th Anniversary Ed.

1. Does regeneration heal magical drain? It is a critter power not sorcery, but is magical. Does that make it sorcery? Sorcery is a skill group which does not include critter powers, but there have been posts on this board that have said regeneration doesn't heal magical drain. I would like a confirmation.

2. Does empathic healing (adept power in SM) heal magical drain? It is nearly identical to the heal spell (cannot heal magical drain), but trades damage between the target and adept. Once empathic healing is performed, can that be healed by the heal spell? I'd assume so, because trading damage is not drain. Again I'd like a confirmation.

Are there any other ways to heal magical drain?

As a note for posterity, it is not CLEAR that first aid heals drain. There is much angsty discussion about it, because it is clearly pretty dumb to let band-aids and gauze fix something that raw magic is incapable of fixing. That said:

Regeneration should work, but empathic healing should not.

Magical drain is designed to be completely unhealable except through natural healing. Regeneration is, IMNSHO, advanced natural healing.

A good nights sleep?

Is not empathic healing a modified form of rapid natural healing? It's not like the adept is putting band-aids on the targets wounds. Maybe just more explanation why this shouldn't work would be nice. Thanks for the prompt input though. Also note this in contradiction with basically everything you said:

Directly from the thread: "Noob players and Mages"



At least this person thinks regeneration does not heal magical drain and first aid kits do.



mhmm, rest. one of the first things I mentioned... 3rd actually.

Regeneration specifically states that it will not heal any damage caused by magic. "Likewise, magical damage from ..." <list of specific sources> "... or other magic may not be healed through Regeneration."

Which means regeneration is kaputt now. It can't heal drain... that is ok and good. Working as intended. But that it couldn't heal damage you got from getting hit by a combat spell or even better a manipulation is idiotic... Also it shouldn't really heal stun damage. (Maybe help with it, ok)

Why are people so fired up about never have any drain? Just regulate your power and you get no drain. And if you need something spectacular.. just take it, laugh at the dead fools all around you, go home and get into bed *g*.

"Likewise, magical damage from weapon foci, combat spells, critter/adept powers, or other magic may not be healed through Regeneration." - SR 20th Anniv. Ed.

Zurai you were the one who posted that regeneration couldn't be used to heal magical drain in that post I referred to. So drain is "other magic"? I'm not convinced. RedeemerofOgar made a good point about natural healing and that is exactly what regeneration is.

Sorry if I'm being adamant about clarity, but unfortunately "other magic" doesn't spell out drain clear enough for me.

You could argue about indirect combat spells and manipulation spells, since they create actual elements, but that's the way it has always been in SR.

It does not sound as silly anymore if you say you take some painkillers to relieve the headache caused by drain. Furthermore until proven otherwise there is no rule in SR4 forbidding to heal drain with first aid or medicine. Whether this was the case in previous editions is irrelevant.

Drain is caused by a magical effect - it does not matter what that effect is, it is magical damage, & thus cannot be healed through Regeneration.

Regeneration is not "natural healing". It is a magically enhanced rate of healing. If you are in a Mana Ebb or Void, your Regeneration is less effective or non-existent (depending on your magical strength & that of the Ebb/Void). Regeneration is incapable of healing everything natural healing can.

Regeneration, simply put, is based off the Magic attribute, & thus is a form of magical healing.

Actually it does - I've always been of the opinion that First Aid shouldn't heal damage boxes, it should work just like a stim patch does - basically providing Pain Tolerance for the treated wound. Band-aids and aspirin just aren't going to eliminate physical damage in a matter of combat rounds, but by RAW that's what it does.

On a related note: It feels strange to be discussing RAW vs RAI in a game where so many of the rules explicitly state "The GM is instructed to make this up on the fly."

We aren't discussing those. Discussion is mainly about the rules that DON'T say "Rule of Fun." There are a few topics around arguing the merits of different interpretations of the rules that ARE arbitrary, but those usually degrade into flame wars once someone steps over the "you're doing it wrong" line.

Heh, I just realized that RAW = Rules As Written and RAI = Rules As Implied

RAW against regeneration as capable of healing magical drain: Regeneration is either a sorcery or drain is an 'other magic'. Most persuasive is calling drain an 'other magic'.

on the other hand

"Likewise, magical damage from weapon foci, combat spells, critter/adept powers, or other magic may not be healed through Regeneration." - SR 20th Anniv. Ed.

it lists being hit by opponent magic/magic tools and then says the equivalent of etc.

which implies that other magic wouldn't include your own drain

more RAWish though is this point: note that drain is a magical effect, but isn't magic, so it wouldn't be considered 'other magic'

Actually I know RAI as rules as intended.

With this kind of reading, what is a fireball? Is it magical damage? Actually it isn't. It is elemental fire damage just as a flame thrower (weapon). But the fireball is a magical effect and thus is not regenerated and you already quoted the line explicitly saying so. Same goes for drain, how except by magic could you incur drain?

dakka good point with fireball

I'm convinced.

I would like to hear more about Empathic Healing. The word "healing" is in the name, but is it really healing, if it just transfers the damage to another person? So....

1) Can drain in person A be eliminated by person B absorbing it through Empathic Healing?

2) If it can be absorbed, does the damage, now residing in person B, submit to the same rule that prevented magical means from healing it in person A?

RAW Drain damage does not fit the definition of "magical damage" that regeneration does not heal. Drain is a balancing mechanic for casting a spell, interestingly enough the books never actually tell you what is damaging your character. Referencing it as "magical drain" is incorrect. As a example some magic spells (such as that one that lets you throw something really fast) can be healed by regeneration, since it is not actually using magic to hurt the target.

On the subject of empathic healing, the Adepts powers are treated as a spell effect. True you are not actually healing the target but since you are using a "spell" to move the damage around it would not work. However the damage you took from the empathic transfer could be healed by regeneration, the power simple gives the target boxes of damage with no descriptor as to where it came from or how it is being applied.

Fluff wise we "know" its all done by magic, but when the game checks for instances it doesn't care about fluff.

Ultimately, it does not matter if Drain is considered 'magical damage' or not.

Drain explicitly disallows healing by magical means, & the Regeneration power, utilizing the Magic attribute, is magical means of healing. The result is the same - Drain cannot be healed through Regeneration.

You are half right, again from a RAW standpoint the fact that you add your magic number to your regeneration spell does not make it a magical effect. However in the SR4A book it clarifies that some powers are natural, and some are magical. The two examples it lists are Concealment (duh) and Engulf, BUT does not give the reader a way to differentiate between mundane or magical. Saying otherwise is simply opinion

All we know is for sure that Engulf and Concealment are magical, anything besides that is up to the player/GM, Nothing in Regeneration's description hints that it is a magical based effect, it simply says "A critter with Regeneration will rapidly heal any damage" This is the only Fluff in the description. Everything else is Crunch or details as to how the power works. What you are going off of is where it states "Magic + Body test" this does not make it a magical power since the description does not tell you how the damage is being repaired. It simply states "rapidly heals", the sentence does not change if we replace magic with edge, its simply the attribute added for the test.

Another critter power that is ambiguous would be Noxious Breath, it uses the Magic attribute as a way to determine the power of the attack, nothing more. Regeneration and Noxious Breath are unclear, It can be read as magical or non magical, others such as Movment are obviously magical in nature. Its best left up to the GM to decide

Check in Running Wild. I'm pretty sure you'll find that Regeneration is not a mundane power as defined in that source.

I don't have that, but if it says its magical or describes it as magical then it won't affect drain damage.

Running Wild only provides further clarification - something that is entirely unnecessary in this circumstance.

If a power utilizes the Magic attribute, it is a magical effect. If it does not utilize the Magic attribute, it is mundane (or Resonance-based, as the case of a few Running Wild creatures). Pretty fucking simple, and not 'open to interpretation'.

Of course it's open interpretation. The regeneration power lists a number of things it doesn't work on and they're all direct magical effects. Drain is seen as something different by most. The damage to a person's body or mind from channelling more mana than it can handle is seen by many as something more akin to forcing a jet of water through a fragile pipe, damaging it, than to a direct effect of the magic itself. Compare it to Direct Combat spells - mana is channelled into someone else's body causing it damage. Yet this can be healed by a Heal spell. And that same Heal spell can't heal Drain. Both effects, by your reasoning, are magical effects, yet we see a difference. The specific examples that Regeneration doesn't work on are all quite different to a common way of seeing drain. This naturally opens up the question.

It's debatable. If you say it isn't, then fine - you've made your point. But others may not agree with you even though they've understood your argument. For a start, Drain would be a pretty obvious thing to include in the list if Regeneration couldn't affect it.

K.

I'm not talking about Regeneration not healing Drain because Drain is magical damage, I am talking about Regeneration not healing Drain because Regeneration is a magical effect (Drain explicitly cannot be healed by magical means).

You got it backwards. So, are you telling me that because Regeneration is linked to the Magic attribute, directly utilizes the Magic attribute, & thus disappears entirely if Magic is reduced to 0, that it is debatable if it is a magical effect or not?

Regeneration does not go away if your magic is dropped to 0, instead of rolling Body + Magic, you just roll Body.

If your Magic drops to 0, you loose access to everything that uses or requires the Magic attribute, including spellcasting, adept powers, metamagics, & critter powers.

Damage caused by forcing too much water pressure through a narrow pipe is still damage caused by water. Any effect that was unable to heal damage caused by water would not heal damage to the "pipe".

It's exactly the same with drain. You're forcing too much "water" (mana/magic/whatever-your-tradition-calls-it) through a "narrow pipe" (your body). The damage is caused by magic. Thus, Regeneration doesn't heal it.



Not true in all cases, at least. Shapeshifters explicitly lose Regeneration if their Magic is reduced to 0.

I'm also unaware of any non paranormal entity having Regeneration. Shapeshifters, a couple spirit types, maybe some Infected (I can't access my RC atm). No normal people or critters. It's magical.

Muspellsheimr sorcery cannot heal magical drain(1). I wrote that in my first post and by RAW that is absolutely correct. If regeneration was a sorcery it'd be news to me, but it's not so if it didn't have a clarifying description then it'd be capable of healing drain.

Now we investigate the nature of regeneration. I definitely left a quote somewhere earlier, but drain is not listed as one of the things regeneration cannot heal. So you might think it could heal drain, but it can't because 'other magic' includes drain as drain is a magical effect and therefore is other magic(2).

I'm pretty sure you can't argue with (1) and (2) is quite persuasive.



So the truth of the matter is: Regeneration does not heal drain because drain is a magical effect. Drain can be healed by non sorcery generally.

Sorcery is an example, nothing more.

Regeneration is magical, & thus cannot heal Drain (nor can any other magical ability).


Drain qualifying as 'other magic' should be obvious, but, as shown, some people disagree and are unable to be convinced. Thus, I ignore it entirely, as it is irrelevant in this circumstance.

Most people would just use the phrase: "agree to disagree".

Peace,

K.

Hahahaha brilliant Muspellsheimr. I failed to read that over.

So it's true both ways. Regeneration doesn't heal drain, because drain is magical. And drain cannot be healed by regeneration, because regeneration is magical.

That is a lot more elegant, thanks.