so my friends are thinking about picking up d20 modern. anything i should expect, or get used to?

what are your thoughts on the system?

anything i should know about it?

what are its pros and cons?

The basic mechanics, as you can probably guess, are more or less the same as those of fantasy d20. Tests are 1d20+modifier, you get XP and use it to advance through character/class levels, you have a list of attribute-linked skills, and it's very feat-intensive.

The Highlights:

• The classes were replaced with something a bit more generic (archetypes based around a given attribute - Int, Cha, Str, etc). However the development options within a given archetype are much less open (or, charitably, the game provides much better direction towards what 'works' for a given class) - more akin to the advancement in 4th edition than 3.5.
• The financial system was modified to more closely reflect a more modern, non-barter economy. Instead of futzing around with hard currency all the time, you have a rating of your general financial health and can more or less buy anything that someone of your character's resources would be able to get their hands on.
• The magic system is more or less the same as basic d20 (mostly Vancian, though spontaneous casting and psionics can also be made available). And Modern introduced Rituals, somewhat similar to the system they implemented in 4th edition D&D.
• They implemented firearms and vehicle rules - which work out about as realistically as they ever do in any RPG system where they're not the primary focus.

It's an OK system for what it is (and it's difficult to argue with the set-up costs). And it can probably be directly adapted to other sci-fi/modern fantasy settings more easily than standard d20 translates to other high fantasy settings. Though some people might claim it throws needless complication over the basic d20 rules to achieve it's "modern-day" feel.

Personally, I'd take Modern over 3.x for just about any setting, fantasy, modern, futuristic, whatever.

I'll expand on what TonkaTuff said about classes...

• The classes are organized into Basic, Advanced, and Prestige.
• There are six Basic Classes (Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic). Each basic class is linked to one of the six Ability scores, progresses up to level 10, and offers different sorts of bonus Feats and Talents.
• The advanced classes are more of what you think of when you think D20 classes. You need to meet certain prerequisites to start taking levels in an advanced class. Some of the advanced classes include Soldier, Gunslinger, Negotiator, and Field Medic. They offer class specific abilities, most of which you can't get anywhere else. Advanced classes usually progress for about 10 levels. 4th level is the soonest you can expect to be able to pick up an advanced class and only if you have an optimized build (a Fast/Gunslinger or Strong/Soldier, for instance. Less optimized builds (a Smart/Soldier, for instance) are possible, but they take longer to develop.
• Prestige classes are where you go when you've progressed through several levels in an advanced class. They're highly specialized. Most offer about five levels of progression.

One thing to remember about Modern is that there are no XP penalties for multi-classing! If you want to focus on a single class progression, that's cool. If you want to spread yourself around, that's cool too.

Oh, one other thing... while you can start characters off at level 1, I recommend level 4 or 5, so that players can pick up an advanced class, if they want.

Talents, by the way, are feat-like abilities available through the Basic Classes. They're organized in a linear or tree fashion, depending on the Talent.

In Modern, magic, psionics, cybernetics, and so on are considered FX abilities. Magic and psionics are not strictly integrated into the system - in fact, they're separate chapters, complete with advanced classes. Cybernetics appear in a couple places, D20 Future and... D20 Cyberscape (iirc).

I haven't seen an alternate spell system that I really liked, but Ken Hood created a Skills-N-Feats Psionics System that's pretty good. He also did a Grim-N-Gritty damage system and a grittier Firearms system.

And here's a free resource: Modern SRD. Down at the bottom of the page, there's Smack's Modern SRD (html formatted) and links to WotC's text Modern SRD. No favor text/descriptions, but the mechanical crunchy bits are there to take a look at.

-paws

EDIT: Its been a while since I looked at that website. There's a whole helluva lot more there than there used to be! Free RPGs and print-n-play boardgames. Wow. http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/

My group has tried to play it. It as never ended well, and most of the bad guys seemed to spontaneously die of an overdose of light antitank weapons.

That and drop bears are a bitch.

If I had the choice between SR and D20 Modern, I would choose SR every time. That being said D20 Modern isn't horrible, its just D&D in a modern era (you can play campaigns from Steampunk to SciFi). If you are going to play D20 Modern in the current era I would strongly recommend getting the Ultimate Weapons Guide from Green Ronin. It is by far one of the best collections of modern firearms I have ever seen in the D20 Modern system and a must have IMHO.

With apologies to the OP, I would recommend Spycraft 2.0 over d20 Modern. I find that it did what Modern tried to do but did it better. And you get a bonus if you like crunchy. (Really it's somewhat concrete-y, to be honest.)

personally im not looking forward to d20 modern. im not the one choosing the game. i run mst once a week. another gm is wanting to run d20 modern. ive been looking over the rules and it feels so limited. at least in comparison to what im used to.

All the D20 games are like that when you dive into them. The idea is to pidgin hole everyone into a role and have them play out that role. This is a great idea for new players but creative people tend to find the walls very quickly and feel trapped. SR takes another approach, your given all the options you would ever want right up front and you can either pidgin hole yourself if that is what you want, or you can branch out and become the ultimate jack of all trades.

While I agree with the basic assessment, I feel that Modern is more flexible in this regard than 3.x (and especially 4.0) could ever hope to be. If nothing else, Modern encourages you to multi-class, instead of penalizing it. I can't compare to SpyCraft, because I've never played it.

You point about SR being more open ended is a good one though. It really doesn't take much effort to retool the SR4 system into just about any setting.

(Though the lack of rules dealing with space, space ships, etc. does somewhat limit the ability to run a good space opera or space western. *cough*)

-paws

I don't like hawk my own wares, but I am creating a game system that I hope has the flexibility of SR, the ability to pidgin hole like D20 Modern, and the scalability of a more generic system. So far the rules are coming along nicely but I'm only one man and it will take time before I'm done and have the system ready for game testing. That being said I have licenced the system already under the CC Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported licence which will allow others to modify and re-distribute the game without paying royalties to me (their modification just needs to be licenced under the same licence though).

Big thumbs up to free RPGs systems. I'd love to take a look at it when its in a presentable form.

-paws

Bull loves this system... can't get him to stop talking about it. WHen he's back on teh intardwebz, you should all PM about how the wealth system saves your games...

i do like the wealth system. its in several d20 games. most of what im not liking about d20 modern is how restricted it feels. also the gm is making changes and houserules before we he has even played it. one of the other players said that he thinks the gm is on a power trip. i agree with him as he told me today that the gm was mad at him for letting me have a copy of the book. apparently the gm wants it to be where only he really knows the rules. the player thinks its so he can change them as he sees fit. every one of us has said that the only reason that we are playing is because its the old group back together. well wish me luck on this.

yep, i have read enough forum posts on enworld and wizards own forum about the d20 wealth system to be left with a impression that a lot of GM's have a knee-jerk reaction to it, mostly in ways of houseruling it back to using actual amounts.

ok, so i have seen first hand that a payment after a mission done have resulted in less of a increase with the wealthiest character. But when one think about it, anything below the wealth score and below DC15 can be had at any amount, any time, as long as the GM says its available in that area. Also, if one where to look at the percentage increase of total funds for the character, had one used actual amounts, the growth would not be that much bigger. I guess it may just be triggering that old fairness instinct that us herd mammals have built in...

in the end, its mostly a issue of diminishing returns...

as for it being restrictive? i would say the opposite. you can freely multiclass, and when adding books like d20 future, there are so many ways to go with that, one start to wonder what not to add, rather then what to add. But thats from a GM's perspective. From a players perspective, it may appear restrictive, after the GM have decided what he do not want in the game...

its restrictive to me because he is telling us what we can and cant have. aswell as starting at level 2 and only playing 3 sessions. our last game of it we will be level 4. on another note. one of the players told me that the gm plans on killing one of us each game. there will be 4 players and 3 games. d20 has always been a game to play for a long time. not only a few days worth. we might actually play all the sessions in one day. im sure if i was under a different gm i would enjoy it more. all of the players agree that the gm has a player vs gm attitude.

Actually I do have one problem with my RPG system that you guys can help me with. I don't know how to set up a say that is fair yet customizable to give out starting equipment. I had a couple of ideas tell me which you think is best:
* If the GM chooses to use a Class system with the rules then each class starts with a starting equipment list including starting cash
* Random amount of money used to get starting cash based on a dice roll
* Roll on various tables based on your skills/class/archtype character to see what equipment you get
* Selecting equipment based on your attributes/skills (ie if your social is over X then you can get _____ )
* Getting starting cash based on your attributes/skills

Any other ideas would also help.

I would just walk away. This has the distinct making of a game that violates the zeroth law of role playing: all participants shall have fun. However, if this is the old group getting back together and you are convinced it is worth a try, then by all means, I wish you well.

==========

@ TBRMInsanity

Good luck with the decision making process. As you are no doubt aware, you will never make a decision that everyone likes. Send me a PM with some details on your system and I will share my thoughts but I don't wish to further contribute to thread-jacking.

looks like the game wont happen. if it does its without me. ill be out of town until the 9th and the gm is staying until the tenth.

It's about what you'd expect it to be. The art was fun, and it had a great location supplement (Critical Locations) that's useful for Shadowrun.

Spycraft does some really neat things with the d20 engine (dramatic conflicts, the way it does NPCs, some of the feat trees, and so on), but it's a lot crunchier. The pocketbook edition is only $25, so it's not too expensive a buy-in if you just want to look at the system.

The 3.5 D&D game I play in is barely recognizable as such. Some of our houserules:
-Feat progression (1/lvl)
-Gestalt characters allowed to gestalt 3 classes instead of 2
-Alignment restrictions almost nonexistent
-Max HP per lvl
-Almost all spell components removed
-No need to prepare specific spells
-If you run out of spells you can make Wis based Fortitude saves based on spell level to keep casting, if you fail the save you take nonlethal damage
-Insta-kills, if you threaten, then roll a natural 20 to confirm, then succeed on a second confirm, the target is dead; only works if you can crit them
-Rule of 1: a natural 1 always fails
-Rule of 20: a natural 20 always succeeds

i suspect this is the most common d&d houserule out there...

"Why is everyone chaotic neutral?"

the description of said alignment in D&D2 can probably be summed is as "sanity optional"

Minus the wealth system, which I'd like to wipe my ass with, D20 Modern is okay. What I like is that it has lot's of free online support out there. Character generators, the SRD, websites, fan made content, etc...We use it to run the Zombie Apocalypse. (Games based loosely off of the Walking Dead comics, Zombie movies, etc...)

I guess I'll piggyback onto this post - Has anyone who has every tried Shadowrunning with D20 rules found iteasier or harder? In looking into this the two big obsticles Im finding are how to handle adepts and Cybernetics.

The adepts Im sorta thinking can be worked like monks only with some extra spells available

In terms of the cybernetics I'm thinking feats and skill advancement might work best in this regard.

Any thoughts?

Yes, don't.

[/snark]

If you are going to try it, you need to section out the parts of SR that make it SR.

Example: Gritty Realism makes SR, SR.
Do away with hitpoints or fix them at low levels (and never raise them) or use a would/vitality system (See pre-Saga Starwars or SpyCraft). Otherwise, you have the high level elf taking a shot to the face and laughing.

Example: Combination of Magic and Tech is what makes SR, SR.
Do away with fixed level based casting (aka vancian magic) as it gets beat in a protracted fight always-functioning tech. It gets too powerful too quickly.
Alternatively, you could cap spells at much lower levels.

Now, once you accept the limitations any of the d20 stuff puts on SR, you are in a better starting place. On, to your core questions:

I would not do feats for cyber unless you are willing to let them be changed or upgraded at some level. (Default d20 assumes the feat is the feat is the feat.) Skills might work better; however, the skill system in d20 is more afterthought than integral part of the core system - read, combat.

Monks/spells? I assume you mean chi powers. If not, please explain. That should work just fine. Now, if you meant, mystic adepts, then yes. Again, be careful of spell levels.

Have fun and good luck!

oh yeah, by the way someone made the ghost in the shell net sourcebook for d20
http://www.serenadawn.com/GhostintheShellRPG.htm

and they did a cyberscape book for d20 modern; to cross w/ d20 SciFi. They have the rules you're looking for (somewhat). The system just feels wrong, and icky. Like oil on my sink. It worked though, and could probably be adapted for what you need.

i did it. i combined ogl steampunk with ogl cybernet. it works rather well. it depends on what sr is to you. is it the setting and style? or is it the system? it worked for me but probably isnt for everyone.

i made a thread on this some time ago. ill look for it.

Hey Maelstrome

Yeah you bring up a good point about What SR is to me. Im a fan of high adventure in RPGs and also a huge fan of the SR setting - so to me I want to play/run a game with high magic and big epic battles. As such Im wondering if the D20 system where the "gritty" aspects cant be incorperated into larger than life adventures. Ive seen SR's combat described as using a hammer to crack an egg which doesnt fit well into epic adventure so characterised by WOTC style games. Thats pretty much why Im looking into an alternative system so that I can keep the SR setting while still adapting it to my needs.... and avoiding bucket loads of six sided dice.

try using the ogl cybernet as your core rules then add from other sources. it has that gritty sr feel with epicness of the high adventure games.
i used cybernet for the core rules and steampunk for the races and magic.

d20 modern caps quick to cast magic at around level 4. Anything beyond is a ritual.

as for elf taking a bullet to the head and laughing, only if he is a high con tough hero with the right talent tree filled, as massive damage is con, not 50hp like in d&d. take more damage in a single attack and your at -1 and dropping...

Thanks again Maelstrome,

Im goner check that out esp since used copies of OGL Cybernet seem pretty cheap.

I stand corrected. I had forgotten about the hp changes.

I picked up the OGL Steampunk game - Im impressed! It looks like a really cool setting in of itself. Shame it never really caught on. I'd have loved to have played it even in an Online game of some sort.

i was heavily considering running one online. if i can get the time and players to work on it i just might.

im also working on a ogl steampunk version of the maelstrom storytelling material. i was looking at steampunk last night and there are so many things i want to do with it.

OMG - if you run an online game of OGL Steampunk count me in! That would be the Cat-Hybrid's Meow!

ill see what i can do. do you have yahoo messenger?

i think i can get a few people together.

yup yup - you can find me at lassfromwales on YIM. Im on frequently enough that finding me shouldnt be an issue. Look forward to something coming of it.

i sent you an add.