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Kronk2
Usually Border guards are not that elite, and from my RL experience at most carry a side arm. Would this hold true on the Azzie Cas border? Or would we see roamind hordes of rotodrones armed to the teeth on both sides of the border?
Bull
Border guards on the Azzie/CAS front are a lot more likely to resemble your more conflicted borders in Europe, countries that are actively hostile to each other, rather than the current Mexico/US border (If that's what you were referring to).

Depending on the speicifc time, and the exact relations between the two, it's going to go from highly distrustful (Standard military patrol gear, small squads of 2-4 men at check points, the occasional manned and unmanned ground and air patrols) to outright hostile (Larger squads, a few heavy weapons per squad, heavier armor, dense security at checkpoints, and frequent patrols by drones and manned vehicles).

Since the Azzies and CAS haven't really been engaged in any real outright warfare in a while, I'd say the former is more likely, unless something sets them at a high alert for some reason.

bull
Naysayer
One grizzled man, armed with undodgeable roundhouse-kicks.

Sorry, but it had to be done.
FlakJacket
I see them probably as a somewhat paramilitary force - when you've got two hostile countries squaring with armies arrayed along the border playing who blinks first the civilian version just seems a little underpowered. IIRC didn't the Russian border guards have access to things like APCs and attack helicopters? I know they ran their own frigates and corvettes, although for the CAS the Coast Guard would probably take care of that. Two or four man patrols in something like the 2070s version of the up-armoured Humvees packing assault rifles with grenade launchers wearing body armour similar to the militaries. SoNA has the CAS' military technology 'lagging behind the UCAS, Aztlan and Pueblo' for the military so no cyberware for the border guards just armour and gear mods. Have that as a standard patrol with heavy backup in the form of APC and helos and the CAS military on call in case it gets really hairy.
Heath Robinson
A large number of overweight slackers in everyday clothing with Shotguns and Sport Rifles. They are seated atop folding chairs and drinking some tasteless mass produced alcohol-water. They joke about shooting wildlife, and talk with heightened interest about "the big game".

I didn't have to go there, but I did anyway.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Jul 20 2009, 09:46 AM) *
A large number of overweight slackers in everyday clothing with Shotguns and Sport Rifles. They are seated atop folding chairs and drinking some tasteless mass produced alcohol-water. They joke about shooting wildlife, and talk with heightened interest about "the big game".

I didn't have to go there, but I did anyway.


You forgot the bangoos as well.
the_real_elwood
Because the Aztlan-CAS border is a militarized zone, I don't think you'd see border guards like you would at a friendly border between countries. I think the Aztlan-CAS border would be patrolled by military regulars, probably sporting some pretty heavy gear. I'd think your average border patrol would be about 4 soldiers with a Jeep (or whatever 6th world equivalent the CAS uses), light military armor, assault rifles, and maybe an antiarmor rocket on the Jeep. Patrols probably aren't terribly thick, and are supplanted by extensive sensor coverage. And of course, being a heavily militarized border, a high firepower rapid reaction force is going to be available at a moments notice.
Kronk2
So smgs, stun rod, and heavy pistols for the guards at crossings where first response would be squadrons of drones (stored on site at border crossings), followed by First Response Teams with the best gear they can carry. In the country task one is to cross the river. (border follows the Colorado closely) task 2 is avoid the patrolling drones on both sides.

I am quite a bit more familiar with the magic system than I am the matrix one, mechanically they are similar I know. So question, what tests are needed, by a hacker, to tell a drone it does not see you?
CodeBreaker
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Jul 20 2009, 11:50 PM) *
So smgs, stun rod, and heavy pistols for the guards at crossings where first response would be squadrons of drones (stored on site at border crossings), followed by First Response Teams with the best gear they can carry. In the country task one is to cross the river. (border follows the Colorado closely) task 2 is avoid the patrolling drones on both sides.

I am quite a bit more familiar with the magic system than I am the matrix one, mechanically they are similar I know. So question, what tests are needed, by a hacker, to tell a drone it does not see you?


That depends how the security is set up. But generally -

A Scan test to find the Drones Hidden Node (Because there is no need for a Security Drone to act in anything other than Hidden)
An Initiate Cryptanalysis check to decrypt the Drones datastream (Because most Security level transmissions are probably encrypted)
A Hack on the Fly check to get access to the Drones Node, with the increased Threshold due to needing atleast Security level access (A note, there is a chance that the Drone is "slaved" to the Main Security Node place, in which case you would have to Hack the Main Node instead. I will assume this is not the case for this example)
An Edit test on the Video Stream. To continue constantly editing yourself out of the footage you have to spend a Simple Action every IP. I imagine because of this you would have to stay in the Drones node, or sit an Agent in it to continue the Edit.

Now, there can be alot of complications to that, such as the Slave rules and things, but at its most basic I am fairly sure that is the procedure.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Jul 20 2009, 04:51 AM) *
Usually Border guards are not that elite, and from my RL experience at most carry a side arm. Would this hold true on the Azzie Cas border? Or would we see roamind hordes of rotodrones armed to the teeth on both sides of the border?


M40 sniper rifles and revolvers, duh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAgJhsnXKqM
Kronk2
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jul 20 2009, 08:01 PM) *
M40 sniper rifles and revolvers, duh.


Well I like the M40 Idea on the Tx side, and will equip with TMPs or Thunderbirds IRL I think the official gun in a 1911, but they can carry what ever they like. I tend to think they would lean towards hi capacity guns with biometric safeties no fancy squeeze safety.
A simple " Son, just give up" from a Ranger would most likely be enough.
CanadianWolverine
I'm not sure if this will help any but something I always think about when consider border hoping is the saying "A army moves on its stomach." In deciding what a grunts who are on a forced march of the friggin boring ass patrol route or sentry duty are armed with, I would start with whatever is mass produced aka cheap and then work my way up from there depending on how rich the state which they are trying to protect is and how much that state is willing to dedicate from their budget to pay the Corps bills for the privilege of protecting themselves with the appropriate contract. How high up the hog the state's government is would also determine if they could afford the corp contracts for supplying them with cyber/bio/drone tech.

Something I think we forget about with our specialized highly illegal runners, these poor smhucks patroling and guarding the border are mass produced SoBs without the custom gear. Now the fast response teams who have the bad ass stats to warrant the bad ass training and the bad ass equipment on a far smaller scale (like unit vs battalion) who come to scrape what is left of the grunts off the intruders boots would probably be a whole other scary nightmarish story. Sorry (morally) bankrupted countries, they probably don't place as much value on their grunts lives as we might think and the nuyen is tight so the good equipment probably only goes to project their most valued assets, whatever may that be in their military doctrine.

I would think a border would be blanketed with cheap sensor packages and geo stationary orbit satellite relayed intel though, that might give anyone a sober second thought when coupled with mass produced cheap grunts and uber soldier fast response teams specialized for the threat assessed.

The real rich bastards would be the ones who could guard their borders with magic. Border crossing into NA Native lands? Might that leave a sting? And those Aztec use blood magic to boot, right?
Kronk2
QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Jul 22 2009, 02:07 AM) *
And those Aztec use blood magic to boot, right?


Which reinforces my thoughts on lots of drones patrolling, cheaper to manufacture with more predictable results and lower repair/replacement costs. and yes. A Latino with odd tatoos pulling out a obsidian knife and cutting himself while chanting and dancing around in the middle of a firefight, would freak me right the frag out. Oh and the Blood spirit that would erupt from him would complete the process.
Kronk2
Here is something that has always bugged me about the fall of Texas. What (according to cannon) happened to Fort Hood and all those Main Battle Tanks, and Longbows? Did they just pack up and leave with the transfer of power from the USA? And while I have no problem with the City of San Antonio giving up with out a fight to welcome the cousins over. I don;t think the 3 Airbases would give so easy. Yeah they may be only fighting with F15s and 16s (Since Obama Veto'd the f22) they still would have made things interesting.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Jul 22 2009, 03:33 AM) *
Here is something that has always bugged me about the fall of Texas. What (according to cannon) happened to Fort Hood and all those Main Battle Tanks, and Longbows? Did they just pack up and leave with the transfer of power from the USA? And while I have no problem with the City of San Antonio giving up with out a fight to welcome the cousins over. I don;t think the 3 Airbases would give so easy. Yeah they may be only fighting with F15s and 16s (Since Obama Veto'd the f22) they still would have made things interesting.


Well, it's like how Joe Dever thinks that a Texan who was otherwise prepared for nuclear holocaust with a sprawling underground bunker and ample food and medical supplies would at the same time be caught with like 6 rounds of ammunition.
starranger
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Jul 22 2009, 02:33 AM) *
Here is something that has always bugged me about the fall of Texas. What (according to cannon) happened to Fort Hood and all those Main Battle Tanks, and Longbows? Did they just pack up and leave with the transfer of power from the USA? And while I have no problem with the City of San Antonio giving up with out a fight to welcome the cousins over. I don;t think the 3 Airbases would give so easy. Yeah they may be only fighting with F15s and 16s (Since Obama Veto'd the f22) they still would have made things interesting.



Don't forget Texas A&M&M - its now one of the leading magical univeristies in the world- I'm sure they had a hand in stopping the azzies advance. Not to mention the Corp of Cadets - which by nature is just short of a military academy. Given that some of the old Military Academies (Air force academy, West Point, Paris Island, etc) went to UCAS after the split - I'd bet the CAS spent Billions Beefing this up to be a leading academy of Officers for the CAS, not to mention an Bulwark against the Azzies.

Oh and Obama didn't veto the F22 - F22 is alive and well in production. CONGRESS (republicans and Dems alike) put the breaks on buying more planes than what was currently alocated.
Kronk2
[quote name='starranger' date='Aug 16 2009, 01:25 AM' post='834303']
Don't forget Texas A&M&M - its now one of the leading magical univeristies in the world- I'm sure they had a hand in stopping the azzies advance. Not to mention the Corp of Cadets - which by nature is just short of a military academy. Given that some of the old Military Academies (Air force academy, West Point, Paris Island, etc) went to UCAS after the split - I'd bet the CAS spent Billions Beefing this up to be a leading academy of Officers for the CAS, not to mention an Bulwark against the Azzies./quote

In my game the Corps has its own magical tradition, and initiatory group. Drain was willpower and body. They internalize the magic before letting it go. There is also a branch of Ag magi too.

Chrysalis
I would recommend if you have a bit of time and money read Osprey's US World War II and Korean War Field Fortifications 1941–53, it will give a better idea of what kinds of positions you will most likely encounter in Aztlan.

I would also recommend: William J. Lewis: The Warsaw Pact: Arms, Doctrine and Strategy. Institute for Foreign Policy Analysis. 1982.


The region is such a large space, involving also inshopitable terrain, it's not going to be patrolled largely by foot, it will be patrolled in jeeps. Large areas will be marked as no-go areas with mines. Observations posts, SAMs, fixed artillery positions, sited artillery positions.

50km behind the border you will have empty and manned airfields, missile silos, bunkers, and fuel storage dumps. All needing to be mobilised by one phone call from Tenochtitlan.

But again whatever floats your boat.

What is realistic is probably not fun.
cndblank
And if you are going to train and outfit more then a glorified security guard or conscript, then why would you leave out off wired reflexes for a mere 11K?

Require an 8 year enlistment and it breaks down to an extra 1K per year with a volume discount.

Any modern military is going to do that just to keep up.

That also means that wired 1 is going to be incredibly common.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Aug 16 2009, 07:22 AM) *
I would recommend if you have a bit of time and money read Osprey's US World War II and Korean War Field Fortifications 1941–53, it will give a better idea of what kinds of positions you will most likely encounter in Aztlan.

I would also recommend: William J. Lewis: The Warsaw Pact: Arms, Doctrine and Strategy. Institute for Foreign Policy Analysis. 1982.


The region is such a large space, involving also inshopitable terrain, it's not going to be patrolled largely by foot, it will be patrolled in jeeps. Large areas will be marked as no-go areas with mines. Observations posts, SAMs, fixed artillery positions, sited artillery positions.

50km behind the border you will have empty and manned airfields, missile silos, bunkers, and fuel storage dumps. All needing to be mobilised by one phone call from Tenochtitlan.

But again whatever floats your boat.

What is realistic is probably not fun.


Throw some drones and watcher spirits in and you might have one person for every 100 clicks of border, backed up by a quick reaction force of LAVs and air mobile infantry. Sam sites and arial drones to maintain air superiority....oh yeah and airspirits, and I won't even touch the matrix warfare that probably goes on weather the war is hot or not...

Shadowrun in terms of warfare is all about the force multipliers.
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