"This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired
reflexes. For each level, you receive +1 die to Reaction (this also affects
Initiative) and 1 extra Initiative Pass. The maximum rating of
Improved Reflexes is 3, and the increase cannot be combined with
technological or other magical increases to Initiative." - SR4a
So I gathered they didn't want people to have some level of improved reflexes and then get a low level increase reflexes cast on them and voila 4 IP. But does the adept power Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) or the spell Increase [Reaction] combine or stack with Improved Reflexes? From the wording it seems that neither of them can combine with Improved Reflexes, but if I'd assume they'd allow Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) to stack with Improved Reflexes.
What do you think?
Full Version: Improved Reflexes
Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) would be allowed under SR4a.
I'm thankful for the response, but why? I established that I believed the same thing, but not with any rule based justification.
Improved Reaction doesn't give you additional IPs so that is why it is allowed.
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jul 23 2009, 02:47 PM) 
Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) would be allowed under SR4a.
Did they change the wording of Improved Reflexes in SR4A? All I've noticed is that the errata says the power point cost of Improved Reflexes has changed. Otherwise why would they work together? Improved Reflexes says it doesn't work with any other initiative improving technologies or magic. So unless Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) adept power isn't considered magic, I don't see how they would work together.
Also, since both Reaction and Intuition are used in calculating initiative, does that mean that anything that boosts intuition also wouldn't work with Improved Reflexes or similar methods? I don't think there are any such intuition improving methods, but the point still stands....
It's allowed because it's a magical increase to Reaction, not Initiative. The resulting increase to initiative is not a technological or magical increase, it's just the natural calculation.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jul 23 2009, 01:16 PM)
Did they change the wording of Improved Reflexes in SR4A? All I've noticed is that the errata says the power point cost of Improved Reflexes has changed. Otherwise why would they work together? Improved Reflexes says it doesn't work with any other initiative improving technologies or magic. So unless Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) adept power isn't considered magic, I don't see how they would work together.
Also, since both Reaction and Intuition are used in calculating initiative, does that mean that anything that boosts intuition also wouldn't work with Improved Reflexes or similar methods? I don't think there are any such intuition improving methods, but the point still stands....
Also, since both Reaction and Intuition are used in calculating initiative, does that mean that anything that boosts intuition also wouldn't work with Improved Reflexes or similar methods? I don't think there are any such intuition improving methods, but the point still stands....
Just as an aside... Reaction enhancers can be used with Wired Reflexes...
I put Increased Reaction in the same category as Reaction Enhancers and Inproved Reflexes in the same category as Wired Reflexes... SO yes, they stack...
Well Tymeaus your point would be significant if wired reflex (and move by wire for that matter) didn't explicitly state that they stack with reaction enhancers.
Clearly if they meant Initiative Passes, they would have said Initiative Passes and not Initiative. Initiative is an entirely separate thing that is the sum of Reaction and Intuition.
I'm guessing there are drugs that increase or decrease Intuition that don't stack with Improved Reflexes??? It's kinda hard to find an example for increasing intuition by technology of the top of my head.
Clearly if they meant Initiative Passes, they would have said Initiative Passes and not Initiative. Initiative is an entirely separate thing that is the sum of Reaction and Intuition.
I'm guessing there are drugs that increase or decrease Intuition that don't stack with Improved Reflexes??? It's kinda hard to find an example for increasing intuition by technology of the top of my head.
QUOTE (mmmkay @ Jul 23 2009, 08:28 PM)
Clearly if they meant Initiative Passes, they would have said Initiative Passes and not Initiative. Initiative is an entirely separate thing that is the sum of Reaction and Intuition.
Which is why improved ability (REA), Combat Sense, and drugs that increase Intuition WILL stack with Improved Reflexes. Magical and technological improvements to reaction or intuition are NOT magical and technological improvements to initiative; they are calculated improvements based upon the nature of the rules and the definition of initiative.
QUOTE (mmmkay @ Jul 23 2009, 01:28 PM)
Well Tymeaus your point would be significant if wired reflex (and move by wire for that matter) didn't explicitly state that they stack with reaction enhancers.
Clearly if they meant Initiative Passes, they would have said Initiative Passes and not Initiative. Initiative is an entirely separate thing that is the sum of Reaction and Intuition.
I'm guessing there are drugs that increase or decrease Intuition that don't stack with Improved Reflexes??? It's kinda hard to find an example for increasing intuition by technology of the top of my head.
Clearly if they meant Initiative Passes, they would have said Initiative Passes and not Initiative. Initiative is an entirely separate thing that is the sum of Reaction and Intuition.
I'm guessing there are drugs that increase or decrease Intuition that don't stack with Improved Reflexes??? It's kinda hard to find an example for increasing intuition by technology of the top of my head.
Magic and Drugs can do it... And you are right, I Can't seem to find a Technological increase to Intuition...
But hey...
As for the Increased Reaction stacking with Increased Reflexes... It is only logical, and I notice that you agreed earlier that it would work anyway... so, Null Perspiration...
It seems logical AND not allowed by the rules. There is no except Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) clause at the end of the description of Improved Reflexes.
@Fastball: It's pretty clear you can get a little bit of synaptic boosters, a little bit of wired reflexes, and a little bit of move by wire to give yourself 4 IP. That is most definitely clear. Furthermore it is clear that you can't stack reaction enhancers and synaptic boosters because there is no exception statement for reaction enhancers (as there is for move by wire and wired reflexes) and reaction enhancers increase reaction which increases initiative.
Why in the world would there be exceptions for reaction enhancers with wired reflexes if reaction enhancers did not increase initiative? Yes, initiative is a derived quantity, but that's like saying increasing my mass on earth doesn't increase my weight on earth.
@Fastball: It's pretty clear you can get a little bit of synaptic boosters, a little bit of wired reflexes, and a little bit of move by wire to give yourself 4 IP. That is most definitely clear. Furthermore it is clear that you can't stack reaction enhancers and synaptic boosters because there is no exception statement for reaction enhancers (as there is for move by wire and wired reflexes) and reaction enhancers increase reaction which increases initiative.
Why in the world would there be exceptions for reaction enhancers with wired reflexes if reaction enhancers did not increase initiative? Yes, initiative is a derived quantity, but that's like saying increasing my mass on earth doesn't increase my weight on earth.
QUOTE (mmmkay @ Jul 23 2009, 01:57 PM)
It seems logical AND not allowed by the rules. There is no except Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) clause at the end of the description of Improved Reflexes.
@Fastball: It's pretty clear you can get a little bit of synaptic boosters, a little bit of wired reflexes, and a little bit of move by wire to give yourself 4 IP. That is most definitely clear. Furthermore it is clear that you can't stack reaction enhancers and synaptic boosters because there is no exception statement for reaction enhancers (as there is for move by wire and wired reflexes) and reaction enhancers increase reaction which increases initiative.
Why in the world would there be exceptions for reaction enhancers with wired reflexes if reaction enhancers did not increase initiative? Yes, initiative is a derived quantity, but that's like saying increasing my mass on earth doesn't increase my weight on earth.
@Fastball: It's pretty clear you can get a little bit of synaptic boosters, a little bit of wired reflexes, and a little bit of move by wire to give yourself 4 IP. That is most definitely clear. Furthermore it is clear that you can't stack reaction enhancers and synaptic boosters because there is no exception statement for reaction enhancers (as there is for move by wire and wired reflexes) and reaction enhancers increase reaction which increases initiative.
Why in the world would there be exceptions for reaction enhancers with wired reflexes if reaction enhancers did not increase initiative? Yes, initiative is a derived quantity, but that's like saying increasing my mass on earth doesn't increase my weight on earth.
And I have not ever seen a table that does not allow this...
However, I am sure that they are out here....
They also do not explicitely state that an increase to Reaction or Intuition through Karma Expenditure stacks with Initiative boosts... some things just do not need to be stated, as they are self evident...
Keep the Faith...
Because improving a stat through karma is a natural initiative enhancement. Hence it is viable with Improved Reflexes.
Maybe wired reflexes and move by wire kill the bodies ability to spend karma on increasing reaction/intuition aside from using reaction enhancers?
If I had to guess, this probably would have been pointed out if the implications of using wired reflexes/move by wire were so debilitating.
I guess I can just say... sloppy rule writing and leave it at that?
Maybe wired reflexes and move by wire kill the bodies ability to spend karma on increasing reaction/intuition aside from using reaction enhancers?
If I had to guess, this probably would have been pointed out if the implications of using wired reflexes/move by wire were so debilitating.
I guess I can just say... sloppy rule writing and leave it at that?
It is an issue of direct increase v. collateral increase.
Synaptic Boosters explicitly state that they cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement. Does this mean if I purchase a synaptic booster I can no longer use karma to increase reaction or intuition? No, it doesn't, because increasing reaction and intuition are collateral increases to initiative, not direct increases.
The default rule for Reaction Enhancers would be that since they do not directly increase inititative, they can be combined with other initiative enhancements. To prevent this, they explicitly disallowed reaction enhancers to be combined, then created individual exceptions for the technologies they thought could be combined.
Why create a special exception for reaction enhancers? Probably because they didn't want adepts to combine Improved Reflexes with reaction enhancers, they wanted adepts to be forced to use improved ability (REA) to achieve the same effect that a samurai can with Wired + Reaction Enhancers. Since reaction enhancers don't directly increase initiative, they are not prohibited from being combined with Improved Reflexes by the prohibition in Improved Reflexes. Thus, they had to add a prohibition directly into the rule for reaction enhancers.
Also, how are you getting 4 IP? Synaptic Boosters can't be combined with Wired Reflexes, Move-by-wire, Reaction Enhancers, or Improved Reflexes.
Synaptic Boosters explicitly state that they cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement. Does this mean if I purchase a synaptic booster I can no longer use karma to increase reaction or intuition? No, it doesn't, because increasing reaction and intuition are collateral increases to initiative, not direct increases.
The default rule for Reaction Enhancers would be that since they do not directly increase inititative, they can be combined with other initiative enhancements. To prevent this, they explicitly disallowed reaction enhancers to be combined, then created individual exceptions for the technologies they thought could be combined.
Why create a special exception for reaction enhancers? Probably because they didn't want adepts to combine Improved Reflexes with reaction enhancers, they wanted adepts to be forced to use improved ability (REA) to achieve the same effect that a samurai can with Wired + Reaction Enhancers. Since reaction enhancers don't directly increase initiative, they are not prohibited from being combined with Improved Reflexes by the prohibition in Improved Reflexes. Thus, they had to add a prohibition directly into the rule for reaction enhancers.
Also, how are you getting 4 IP? Synaptic Boosters can't be combined with Wired Reflexes, Move-by-wire, Reaction Enhancers, or Improved Reflexes.
QUOTE (mmmkay @ Jul 23 2009, 03:57 PM)
It seems logical AND not allowed by the rules. There is no except Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) clause at the end of the description of Improved Reflexes.
There doesn't need to be such a clause. Improved Physical Attribute is not a magical or technological boost to Initiative, so it does not fall into the only categories that Improved Reflexes explicitly does not stack with.
QUOTE
@Fastball: It's pretty clear you can get a little bit of synaptic boosters, a little bit of wired reflexes, and a little bit of move by wire to give yourself 4 IP.
Uhhhh... no, no you can't. All three of those explicitly prevent ANY other Initiative Pass enhancements from stacking with them. Every permanent method (plus the Increase Reflexes spell) of gaining IPs is mutually exclusive with the others.
Allow me to give you one more illustration.
The Combat Sense ability increases reaction for surprise tests. Suprise tests require an initiative test. Thus, by your interpretation, Combat Sense is a magical increase to initiative and cannot be combined with Improved Reflexes.
On SR4A page 104, however, you will find a sample character that has Improved Reflexes 2 and Combat Sense 2. The only way this is possible is if Combat Sense is not considered a magical ability that improves initiative. Since it is clearly a magical ability, it must be considered an increase to reaction, not to initiative.
The Combat Sense ability increases reaction for surprise tests. Suprise tests require an initiative test. Thus, by your interpretation, Combat Sense is a magical increase to initiative and cannot be combined with Improved Reflexes.
On SR4A page 104, however, you will find a sample character that has Improved Reflexes 2 and Combat Sense 2. The only way this is possible is if Combat Sense is not considered a magical ability that improves initiative. Since it is clearly a magical ability, it must be considered an increase to reaction, not to initiative.
QUOTE (Fastball @ Jul 23 2009, 01:37 PM)
Also, how are you getting 4 IP? Synaptic Boosters can't be combined with Wired Reflexes, Move-by-wire, Reaction Enhancers, or Improved Reflexes.
I forgot a not.
QUOTE (mmmkay @ Jul 23 2009, 09:53 PM)
I forgot a not.
Probably happens to everyone at least once.
Not to be nitpicky as this has already been settled and clarified for me, thanks everyone btw.
No, because combat sense doesn't affect initiative only surprise tests. Regardless I gather what you were attempting to say and provide further proof but none is needed. Your collateral v. direct argument was sound enough.
QUOTE
The Combat Sense ability increases reaction for surprise tests. Suprise tests require an initiative test. Thus, by your interpretation, Combat Sense is a magical increase to initiative and cannot be combined with Improved Reflexes.
No, because combat sense doesn't affect initiative only surprise tests. Regardless I gather what you were attempting to say and provide further proof but none is needed. Your collateral v. direct argument was sound enough.
QUOTE (mmmkay @ Jul 23 2009, 10:13 PM)
Regardless I gather what you were attempting to say and provide further proof but none is needed. Your collateral v. direct argument was sound enough.
I just posted the combat sense example because I wasn't certain if you agreed with the collateral v. direct explanation yet.
Glad I could help, and good luck with the adept.
QUOTE (Fastball @ Jul 23 2009, 05:50 PM)
Allow me to give you one more illustration.
The Combat Sense ability increases reaction for surprise tests. Suprise tests require an initiative test. Thus, by your interpretation, Combat Sense is a magical increase to initiative and cannot be combined with Improved Reflexes.
On SR4A page 104, however, you will find a sample character that has Improved Reflexes 2 and Combat Sense 2. The only way this is possible is if Combat Sense is not considered a magical ability that improves initiative. Since it is clearly a magical ability, it must be considered an increase to reaction, not to initiative.
The Combat Sense ability increases reaction for surprise tests. Suprise tests require an initiative test. Thus, by your interpretation, Combat Sense is a magical increase to initiative and cannot be combined with Improved Reflexes.
On SR4A page 104, however, you will find a sample character that has Improved Reflexes 2 and Combat Sense 2. The only way this is possible is if Combat Sense is not considered a magical ability that improves initiative. Since it is clearly a magical ability, it must be considered an increase to reaction, not to initiative.
Combat Sense isn't improving your initiative score.
Really, what needs to be determined is what quantifies an initiative booster/enhancer. To me the rules seem fairly clear cut on it. Initiative is Reaction + Intuition, and it says that any enhancement that affects reaction or intuition affects initiative. (Personally I don't see why these would be incompatible with improving Intuition, but meh)
What are all the methods to improve initiative? As far as a I can tell, the list is as follows.
Improved Reflexes (Adept Power) (Cannot combine with Magical/Technological Initiative increases)
Improved Physical Attribute (Adept Power) (No restrictions listed)
Reaction Enhancers (Cyberware) (Is compatible with other Initiative boosters)
Wired Reflexes (Cyberware) (Cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement)
Move-by-Wire (Cyberware) (I don't have Augmentation, I'm assuming it's identical to Wired Reflexes)
Synaptic Boosters (Bioware) (Cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement)
Suprathyroid Gland (Bioware) (No restrictions listed)
Cram (Drug, +1 Reaction) (No restrictions listed)
Jazz (Drug, +1 Reaction) (No restrictions listed)
Novacoke (Drug, +1 Reaction) (No restrictions listed)
Psyche (Drug, +1 Intuition) (No restrictions listed)
(Insert more drugs here that are listed in Arsenal)
(Insert any genetech/nanotech from Augmentation here)
Both the Suprathyroid Gland and Reaction Enhancers I could see having legitimate concerns on combining with the 4 IP improving enhancements. Reaction Enhancers because of it's exception in description, and Suprathyroid by whether it constitutes a technological improvement. Supra is slightly more complex in my opinion, so I'll address Reaction Enhancers first.
The overriding question here is whether or not the exception listed in Reaction Enhancers description overrides/negates the exception in the descriptions of the 4 IP improving enhancements. There's two ways to interpret this, the first is that due to the similarities between Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes, the developers wanted to be able to use Suprathyroid + Reaction Enhancers, and were concerned about players mistaking it. The second interpretation, which I believe more likely, is that the Reaction Enhancers exception negates the exception in the description of the IP improving enhancements. As for the argument as to whether Imp. Physical Attribute being the Adepts version of Reaction Enhancers, I see nothing in the books to support that claim. If it were to be the adept's version, then I would have expected to see an exception in the description of Imp. Physical Attribute, which there is not.
As for why I see Suprathyroid being an issue. Improved Reflexes does not combine with magical and technological methods of improving initiative. This means that any natural method of improving initiative would combine. It boils down to what defines technological. I believe it is unanimously agreed that drug based initiative improvements do combine with Improved Reflexes, but not the other three methods of gaining IPs. However, technological just means that it came about due to improvements in technology. That means that since most drugs are synthesized/created, they are the fruits of technology, and thus technological. I suggest that if drugs stack with Improved Reflexes, then so must a Suprathyroid gland. Bioware is described as follows, "bioware augments the body's own functions and is integrated as if it were a natural feature." So to me, why bioware is obviously a much higher application of technological improvement, it is far closer to natural than drugs. So if drugs combine with Improved Reflexes, I believe that bioware (and genetech) should also combine with Improved Reflexes.
So basically, my interpretation is as follows.
Improved Reflexes (Adept Power) - Combines with Reaction Enhancers, Genetech, Bioware, Drugs
Synpatic Boosters (Bioware) - Combines with Reaction Enhancers
Move-by-Wire (Cyberware) - Combines with Reaction Enhancers
Wired Reflexes (Cyberware) - Combines with Reaction Enhancers
Also, Karma increases to Reaction/Intuition would combine. They adjust your base reaction/intuition, not enhance or improve it. Otherwise Wired Reflexes would entirely override your reaction stat and ignore your intuition score for determining initiative.
I don't see any problem with suprathyroid gland stacking with other methods, except for maybe drugs. This I think has to do with how it functions. Reaction enhancers, wired reflexes, MBW, synaptic boosters all function by modifying the body's data pathways. Suprathyroid gland modifies metabolic functions. It doesn't change the nervous system at all.
But honestly, I don't understand why the SR writers worded these things in such a way that I think confuses the issue and can lead to false conclusions.
First off, the quote that I find myself bringing up a lot recently is on pg 144 of SR4A under Initiative.
"Initiative is based on two factors: Initiative score and initiative passes."
while it seems pretty obvious, the significance of this is that Initiative passes are part of your initiative. Soooo, whenever anything increases your initiative passes and then states 'does not stack with anything that increases your initiative" I think this means you don't get more passes for having synaptic boosters 1, wired 1, and cram/jazz/improved reflexes/increased reflexes/etc.
And all those ablilities that also increase reaction? They increase reaction. Not initiative. Your initiative score is a derived attribute...from reaction and intuition. So why do wired reflexes and MBW mention reaction enhancers? Don't know. It's silly. If you consider reaction enhancers as an increase to initiative, then any increase to reaction or intuition would have no benefit. So what happens if somone with Wired reflexes gets Increase [Intuition] cast on them? I think the writers messed up when they stuck that little line in there when they shouldn't have.
I think the intended interpretation might have been:
Any augmentation/spell/power that grants additional IPs does not stack with any other augmentation/spell/power that grants IPs.
The bonuses to reaction from wired reflexes and MBW does not stack with any other benefit except from reaction enhancers. (which doesnt really make sense)
I think the last sentence of improved reflexes is just a way of stating the above. IPs from it don't stack with any other technological (wired, MBW, syn. boost,[drugs?]) or magical (increased reflexes) source of IPs.
That's my opinion, and I recognize it as such.
But honestly, I don't understand why the SR writers worded these things in such a way that I think confuses the issue and can lead to false conclusions.
First off, the quote that I find myself bringing up a lot recently is on pg 144 of SR4A under Initiative.
"Initiative is based on two factors: Initiative score and initiative passes."
while it seems pretty obvious, the significance of this is that Initiative passes are part of your initiative. Soooo, whenever anything increases your initiative passes and then states 'does not stack with anything that increases your initiative" I think this means you don't get more passes for having synaptic boosters 1, wired 1, and cram/jazz/improved reflexes/increased reflexes/etc.
And all those ablilities that also increase reaction? They increase reaction. Not initiative. Your initiative score is a derived attribute...from reaction and intuition. So why do wired reflexes and MBW mention reaction enhancers? Don't know. It's silly. If you consider reaction enhancers as an increase to initiative, then any increase to reaction or intuition would have no benefit. So what happens if somone with Wired reflexes gets Increase [Intuition] cast on them? I think the writers messed up when they stuck that little line in there when they shouldn't have.
I think the intended interpretation might have been:
Any augmentation/spell/power that grants additional IPs does not stack with any other augmentation/spell/power that grants IPs.
The bonuses to reaction from wired reflexes and MBW does not stack with any other benefit except from reaction enhancers. (which doesnt really make sense)
I think the last sentence of improved reflexes is just a way of stating the above. IPs from it don't stack with any other technological (wired, MBW, syn. boost,[drugs?]) or magical (increased reflexes) source of IPs.
That's my opinion, and I recognize it as such.
It's mentioned before, but it's pretty simple.
Reaction is not the same thing as initiative.
You use reaction to calculate initiative, but something like reaction boosters or the adept improved ability power just improves reaction, they don't touch initiative. Initiative gets raised as a result, but the ware or magic themselves didn't enhance it in any way.
Reaction is not the same thing as initiative.
You use reaction to calculate initiative, but something like reaction boosters or the adept improved ability power just improves reaction, they don't touch initiative. Initiative gets raised as a result, but the ware or magic themselves didn't enhance it in any way.
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Jul 26 2009, 12:09 AM)
It's mentioned before, but it's pretty simple.
Reaction is not the same thing as initiative.
You use reaction to calculate initiative, but something like reaction boosters or the adept improved ability power just improves reaction, they don't touch initiative. Initiative gets raised as a result, but the ware or magic themselves didn't enhance it in any way.
Reaction is not the same thing as initiative.
You use reaction to calculate initiative, but something like reaction boosters or the adept improved ability power just improves reaction, they don't touch initiative. Initiative gets raised as a result, but the ware or magic themselves didn't enhance it in any way.
Shadowrun has a very black box feeling to it. For those that may not be familiar with the term, it means that you have known inputs, and you have a known output, but you don't know the process the achieve the output from the given input. I'm using black box in this manner because the system doesn't seem to care how you get from point A to point B, it just cares about the end result. The IP increasing augments state that they do not combine with other initiative increasing methods. It doesn't state whether it's a direct or indirect method of increase. Direct methods would be augments that increase reaction for the purpose of initiative tests (+2 initiative and +2 reaction for the purposes of initiative are exactly the same thing), or augments that increase initiative passes, basically anything that states initiative in its description. Indirect methods would be anything that increases reaction or intuition. They indirectly increase initiative through their increase of the appropriate stat. The rulebook doesn't provide any insight on whether such wording only applies to direct increase, or if it includes indirect increases, hence it is a black box. The books don't give any guidance on how to deal with contradictions, and some wordings in the books seemed to have been put forth in anticipation of future problems at the expense of clarity, when in reality you don't help the future problems and you retain the lack of clarity.
One of the more apparent is the Reaction Enhancers by stating it combines with other initiative increasing methods, but the IP increasing methods state that they do not combine. They could have simplified it by stating that Reaction Enhancers stack with Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters, but they didn't because of anticipation for augments like Move by Wire so they wouldn't need to go back through previous augments to create a cross chart of what stacks with what. The end result is that the thing is entirely unclear. Further, why in the world does Improved Reflexes use a different text than the other methods? Wired Reflexes and the like are absolute in their ban on usage with any other initiative increasing method, so why do Improved Reflexes only ban magic and technology, and what constitutes magic and technology? Imp Physical Attribute is an adept power, which is magical in nature, yet people say this would stack with Imp Reflexes?
The stacking and combining rules in Shadowrun are inconsistent across the board. Some places things stack, other places they don't. Multiple layers of armor sort of stack together, but not entirely. Okay, so I don't get the armor benefit of wearing an armored vest under an armored jacket, but if both have thermal dampening 6 on it, does that mean opponents get a -6 or a -12 to thermal perception tests? I initially liked the system because of the apparently simplicity in the rolls compared to D&D, but once I started to drill into the details of modifiers and stacking and combining, it became very murky, and it is very ripe for a lot of house/custom rules/interpretations simply because the core rules don't cover topics adequately enough to arrive at an agreed opinion.
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