Okay, got some rules questions (and some opinion questions).

1. When firing blind, you use weapon+INT, rather than +AGL. Does this apply when using a spotter?

2. Why is the touch link installed at the base of the spine? So you can upload the texture of your briefs to the team?

3. Can I get raptor legs as full-mod rather than plug-in? If house rule, what do you recommend for cost and stats?

4.
How often can/must you make the test, and how long does the modified movement rate last?

5. The positive quality of Guts grants +2 to resist fear effects. The negative quality of severe phobia requires a WPR+INT(3) test to take any action that does not directly deal with the phobia trigger. Should Guts help with this test? I don't think it should apply to the -4 penalty to all actions when exposed to the trigger.

1) yes, it does. that modifier is used when you know the location, but cannot see the target. otherwise, you just don't have any chance of hitting barring suppressing fire.

2) presumably because it's in the CNS.

3) logically, yes. i am not aware of any official rules. for house rules, i would maybe add 1 or 2 capacity.

4) officially, as often as you have actions and until the combat turn(3 seconds) is over. most people feel that making multiple run tests per combat turn is silly, never mind multiple tests per IP; it is a fairly common house rule from what i have seen to restrict it to once per combat turn.

5) help with the test, yes. i agree, it would not help reduce the penalty for exposure.

Question 1-4 are well answered by Jaid, but i have no good feeling for no. 5. Of course he should be right acc. to RAW, but i think this is a perfect example where GM handwaving/choice should kick in. I wouldn´t allow guts at a char that has a phobia. This just doesn´t fit. Either you are fearless or not. But a fearless guy that shits his pants when a spider comes along? Sounds like Indy with snakes.

1. No

2. It lets you feel virtual things without VR, not let other people feel things you feel.

3. Why would you want to? It doesn't pay to stand out that much

4. Can make the test 1/pass, and it lasts till the end of the pass.

5. It applies to Will+Intu test.

Matsci,

1. Do you care to elaborate on why you feel that way?
2. Oh duh, I had it backwards. Thanks.
3. Because my new character is the most obnoxious minotaur ever.
4. I believe that was the rule in previous editions, so I'd be willing to go with that, but in previous editions, sprinting was a complex action, so it's not quite the same. Nor do I remember what the bonus provided.

Machiavelli, I agree with you about the Indy comparison. Good one.

Jaid, thanks.

Anyone else?

4. Since sprinting adds the extra movement to your Running Rate, you only have to do it once per Combat Turn.

breakdown:
If you are a human/elf/ork, your running rate is 25meters/combat turn. If you have 3 IPs and on your first IP you spend a simple action to sprint, make the test with lets say running 3 + strength 5 [ 8 dice ], and get 3 hits. you get +6 meters added to your Running Rate for the Combat Turn (since your running rate is defined as being per Turn). so, your movement rate for that action phase would be (25 + 6) / 3 = 10m. On your next pass, if you wanted to continue running, you could expend a Free action instead of a simple action, and move again up to 10m. And again on the 3rd pass.

If you instead used your simple action on the second pass, you would still be limited to 10m movement on the 2nd and 3rd pass. whatever extra movement you would have gained the first pass is wasted.

Edit to further answer your question: while it would be interesting to allow you to use more than one simple action per combat turn, I don't think that it should be allowed. If it was allowed, the fatigue rules would have to be modified to be rather than turns, the number of times the sprint action is used. Which I don't think would be a good idea.

1) I'm not sure of this because unfortunately it doesn't really tell you how it works from the shooter's perspective. I'm going to assume your talking about using information guided indirect fire. I don't think it would for any attack that uses scatter rules (every option listed except for smartguns), but for smartguns it depends on how the information is relayed and represented. If it just pops up as a box or general shape in your AR, then it would be a blind fire since you can't see the target, you just know where they are at. But if it overlays an image of the target and their movements in your AR, then it would not be blind fire. In general, I assume its NOT blind fire because in the indirect fire rules it states that the only modifier that applies is the -4 for info guided and -2 for target designated indirect fire. So I'm assuming that this applies instead of the blind-fire -6.

One nice thing to remember with indirect fire is that usually the opponent is gonna be suprised, making the attack a simple success test. Works great if the target is inside and you can't get someone inside with a weapon, and you have someone ouside with say...a Gauss rifle.

Matsci, there are still ambiguities not covered by those quotes.

Zero Point, that makes perfect sense. If you have a real-time visual representation of the target, indirect fire uses Agility. If you merely have a spotter relaying the location of the target, use Intuition. There's still some gray area in the middle, but I think we can work with that. What if you have a map, showing a particular building in relation to you. And you have video feed showing his exact location behind that building. What attribute do you use? Sounds like a Logic test, to pinpoint his location. Then an agility test to aim the gun there. So we'll call that an AGL-based test.

And good reminder about there not being a dodge test. >:-)

Zero, I'm a little confused by your breakdown on running.

Are you saying that you only make one sprinting test per turn, and as long as you keep running, you keep the bonus movement? Or that you have to expend a simple or free action every pass to continue at that same bonus rate?

For purposes of discussion, a third option is that your movement is only affected during the pass you make the sprinting test. First pass, you get roll three hits, so you get (25+6)/3 meters that pass. Second pass, you don't roll well and get (25+2)/3 meters. Third pass, you get four hits, so (25+/3 meters.

It doesn't make sense to me to add successes from consecutive tests to your movement rate inside a turn. You could very easily double your movement rate. It also doesn't make sense to continue to sprint without expending an action, since there aren't any complex actions that are compatible with sprinting. The rules specify a -2 penalty to actions taken while running, but don't say anything about a penalty while sprinting, so I'd assume that the extra effort required to sprint is the penalty. In other words, it costs actions. And you should be glad you still get a simple while you're doing it.

My conclusion, it afters your total movement rate for the turn, but only during the pass you take the action. If you want to simplify things, use a simple action in a consecutive pass to maintain that rate rather than rerolling.

One thing i've considered is, If your using an information guided attack, then your spotter has to have some sort of visual means of tracking the target, ie. camera with some hardware/software included that can calculate targeting data and transmit that to the shooter. If your shooter has a smartgun system, which can further calculate targeting data and also makes use of visual feed for AR displays, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be able to superimpose an approximated version of the target on your AR display, and combined with the calculated targeting data place it in exactly the position of where the target is.

There would be some error though because the generated image would have to be generalized because the spotter is going to be seeing the target from a different perspective than the shooter, and the program would just have to make stuff up based on existing models as to what the target's movement would look like from your perspective. In general though I would assume that it would be pretty accurate.

My interpretation would be your first, you would only make one sprinting test per turn. There are a few reasons for this. First is just the wording of the sprint text itself, "Each hit adds 2 meters to their Running Rate". Since Running Rate is a measure of movement per combat turn, not per pass, it would last the entire turn. I think about the fact that there isn't really an action expended with moving. Walking is done without an action and you continue to act during that time. Running requires you to spend a free action so that you can move at the faster running rate. But you don't really move during that free action. We can determine that is the case because moving, except in specific cases is done during your own turn, even running. However, the run action is a free action, and all free actions can be performed at any time after their action phase. If characters could run during their free action than they could use it in response to being attacked and no longer occupy the space they were in, basically get a free automatic dodge. So the spending of an action to run or sprint is a cost, a price to pay for the higher movement rate.

Consider also a little above that.

"... a character with only one action [pass], for example, who chooses to walk or run in the first Initiative Pass will be walking or running the same throughout subsequent Initiative passes. The movement mode can only be changed [emphasis mine] when the character acts again."

So one thing that may be important is your table's interpretation of movement rules in general. The way I've interpreted that last quote and the way I've implemented it at my table is that, basically everyone gets to act each IP, even if they don't have an action. If they don't have an action left, then the only thing they can do is move.

For example, If there are 3 IPs in a combat turn (person with most IPs has 3), then everyone divides movement rate by 3. For those that have less than 3 passes, when it gets to a pass that they don't have an action in the only thing they can do is move, and they continue moving at the rate they set during their last action phase (as indicated above).

If you don't have it work like this, than on the first IP, someone with only 1 IP can outrun someone with 3 IPs since their movement is always divided....which is just silly.

And since I think it does work this way, then if someone with 1 IP uses a simple action first IP to increase their Running Rate via the sprint action, they continue running each pass with the sprint bonus, moving 10 meters each turn if they got 3 hits on their test.

If a character with 3 IPs had to make a sprint test every action phase to move at the sprint rate, then the person with 1 IP would essentially be getting a free simple action each turn. But again with running rate being based on combat turn rather than pass, I don't think its required.

So what does all of this mean? If you spend a sprint action on your first pass and get 2 hits, your movement would either be 9 or 10 m per round (depending on how your GM rounds). second pass you could spend a free action to continue on at the same sprint rate, keep the free action and move at a walk, or spend a simple action to have another try at the sprint check, in which case I don't think it would stack with your previous hits, just replace even if you got less hits than before. On your 3rd, if you had continued sprinting your previous round, then the options would be the same as last pass. If you had decided to spend another sprint action, your options are likewise the same, but this time your may be moving faster or slower, depending on the roll. If you had chose to walk, then it gets a little tricky.

By the interpretation that I have given so far you could start sprinting again with just a free action. I don't really like that though and usually require that they move at normal running rate or spend another simple action in order to get their sprint speed again.

I hope that cleared up my reasoning a little. Not sure it will though since i confused myself a couple times writing it.

Edit: made some clarifications

Why do you have to use a free action to continue on at the same rate? Charactes with only 1 IP do not have free actions to use in subsequent passes, but they are still allowed to continue running at that rate.

Also, I agree that Guts/Severe Phobia doesn't make sense. In fact, Indy doesn't really act as if he is under a severe phobia. He says he hates snakes, but he still does pretty darn well in a pit full of them.

I agree with all of what you said about indirect fire, here. Regarding this specific comment, that's why there's a -4.

Regarding the running, I missed that you have to use a free action to declare that you're running. That clears up your original comments a bit.

If characters could run during their free action, then they could use it in response to being attacked and no longer occupy the space they were in, basically get a free automatic dodge.
Not exactly. the rules regarding interception and escaping combat make that problematical.

If they don't have an action left, then the only thing they can do is move.
Actually, all they can do is move somewhere up to their movement rate for the pass. They can't change their movement rate. They can just decide where to go with it. And they can decide stop where they are, but if they last said they were running, they still get the running modifiers, even though they didn't go anywhere.

If a character with 3 IPs had to make a sprint test every action phase to move at the sprint rate, then the person with 1 IP would essentially be getting a free simple action each turn.
The person with one IP spends one simple on sprinting, and has one simple left over. The person with 3 IPs spends three simples on sprinting, and has three left over. That sounds like an even deal, to me. There's a slight advantage to the three-IP guy, because if he only spends one of his six simple actions on sprinting, he still has a slight distance advantage over the other guy, even if he only gets the bonus in that one pass.

second pass you could spend a free action to continue on at the same sprint rate
This is where the imbalance would occur. The one-IP guy would spend one of his two simple actions to sprint, while the two-IP guy would spend only one of his four simples to sprint.

That's true. If he was phobic, he wouldn't have been able to go down there at all. But I can still see someone being very gutsy in general, but still have an irrational problem with one specific thing. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me, for someone to have guts and a phobia. But I suppose it also sounds reasonable for your guts not to apply to your phobia. Could go either way, IMO.

Indiana Jones is a perfectly reasonable example of Guts and Phobia. Whether I would allow the Guts bonus on Phobia related checks is a different story. I wouldn't automatically allow it to add to the phobia check if at all. Best case scenario I would use a two tier check. The first phobia fear check would be solely to determine whether the character is able to muster the resolve to gain the benefit of his guts in the phobia check, the second is the actual check.

Mind you that is the best case scenario that I would give a person that takes Guts and Phobia. My natural inclination is to not allow the Guts bonus on phobia related checks, but allow it on all other fear related checks.

Well, because I had considered this and didn't feel like making my post longer than it was.

But yeah, your right. there are really two possible rules interpretations.

First, if you spend any action to change your movement rate, you keep that rate for the entire combat turn until you change it. meaning you could sprint the first pass, and continue sprinting in following passes until you decide to change it.

The second possibility that i've seen in the reading is that spending the sprint action still doesn't make your run, it just modifies your run rate. You would still have to use your free action to run (at the enhanced movement rate). I don't think this interpretation is what was intended though.

I guess I should have posted all my thoughts on this the first time rather than being lazy and making partial posts. I apologize if this starts to sound preachy or lectury. Its just the way I am when I try to explain my ideas. It pisses my wife off so much. but anyway, here goes...


true, but only if the opponent is in melee and has an available free action to spend to make the interception attempt. Unless there are more rules to this that i am unaware of. always possible.
But regardless, that's part of why I think movement shouldn't *take place* during a specific action and that movement falls along the action phase rather than as part of it. The other reason would be that if a person moved during their free action run or simple action sprint, then someone could move at a walk 2 meters, spend a simple action to sprint 10 meters, spend a free action to run either 8 meters or 10 if you would deem that its modified by sprint, then sprint another 10 meters. then continue sprinting at 10 meters per phase until the turn was over unless they had more passes in which case they could do the above again. And a 1 IP guy would run 50-52 meters in an entire combat turn (3 seconds). or roughly 16-17 meters/second, which unless i messed up my math is about 58 Kilometers/hour or 35 miles/hour, which is absurdly fast for an unaugmented human and I'm sure you probably wouldn't let someone do this in a game, but there's nowhere in the book that says that you can't spend multiple actions to move.

The two ways of ruling this to bringing numbers more in line:
One is to simply limit the character to one type of movement action per round. This works but is not really ideal.

The other is the way I think it works according to the rules. According to SR4A, At the beginning of your turn, the declare actions phase, you determine your mode of movement for the turn, whether that is walking or running (no mention of sprinting strangely).

If the combat turn is 3 IPs long, than each IP is 1 second long. so for that 1 second you are moving at the declared speed, and performing any actions you spend all simultaneously. While never explicitly stated as far as I've seen, its hinted that if you perform any action that you couldn't do while moving, you don't get any movement that turn. You can get this from the example text in the movement section. In the example, Twitch would have to use a complex action to help the supposed old lady that his opponent knocked over while running way. He would still have his free action available though, and if a character moved during the action spent then he could continue running for another 8m. But according to the example, he couldn't even move at a walk rate. Which makes sense. You can't walk 2 meters in 1 second while stopping to help someone up, or do anything that would require you to be relatively stationary.

So the way I think its supposed to work is you declare your movement rate at the start of the turn along with all of your action (if your going to use two simple actions to shoot, you have to declare both shots and targets at the same time). This is done so you can determine if any action you perform will require you to be stationary. If you chose to run or sprint, you essentially lose your free or simple action right away, and perform your movement during your actions. Which brings me to the next quote/issue that i've found.


Unfortunately, the way that Initiative passes are implemented according to RAW it isn't really balanced. And most of that comes from so many rules ambiguities.
You basically have two interpretations. One is that you only have to declare your movement once, and you continue moving at that rate for the all remaining passes, whether you have passes or not. And the other is reading the quote i gave earlier in its full context that I somehow missed its significance earlier.
Before that quote is:
"Once a mode of movement has been declared, the character moves in that mode until his next action phase. A character continues to move in the last mode he chose during passes that he does not have an action."

So in the end I agree with your original conclusion. If you have multiple passes, and you sprint the first, then on following passes you have to spend another simple action to continue sprinting. You only continue to move at the same rate if you don't have any actions with which to change it. And as a GM I wouldn't make someone re-roll a mid-turn sprint test unless they wanted to.


that was what I was trying to say, but I was getting lazy and just left it at that and hoped everyone would catch what i meant.

On a final note, thank you for posting this thread and discussing this with me. Its actually helped me become a little more familiar with the rules and made me re-examine the way things work. A few rules will be changing at the game table as a result.

Thanks for discussing it with me. Just having to type things out help clear things up. Not only clearing up the rules themselves, but understanding the issues involved in making a house rule, as well as understanding things well enough to explain them to my group. First, a couple of points from the RAW:

The point in the pass that you declare your actions, is at the beginning of your action phase. In other words, when you get a chance to act, the first thing you do is say what you're doing.

Your free action for the IP can be taken at any point during or after your action phase. So you can start running before you act, but only a tiny instant before.

Once a mode of movement has been declared, the character moves in that mode until his next action phase.


Okay, so what they do is limit movement modes to one per action/pass. Whenever you have an action you can change mode. Whenever your have a point in time that your wits are together enough, you can change your movement. And by limiting your movement (distance) per turn, rather than per action, they avoid that silliness that you mention.


Hmm, good point. According to RAW, you spend a complex helping someone to their feet, and follow that immediately with a free-action run. But the time involved in taking that action, takes up the full second (only?), so you shouldn't be able to move also, running or otherwise, with certain actions. That's common sense, and therefore GM's prerogative.

As for declaring your movement at the start of your action phase, I think there is some simplification for the sake of the rules and smooth game play. Let's say you've got 24 phases in a pass. Your character has a nish roll of 8. Three quarters of the pass is gone before you get a chance to declare that you're going to start running. Should this mean that you only get one quarter of your movement this pass? No way - that would be bookkeeping insanity. Besides, you get the other three quarters of your movement in the next pass, before your action.

But here's where it gets a little odd. Let's say you go in 24. You draw your sword and charge a guy who's 15m away. You move 12m. Then in 12, the bad guy gets his action, and runs away from you. You both go 12.5 meters (two passes this turn), and you were five meters apart to start with. At the end of the turn you're still 5m apart, even though he was moving in only 75% of the turn. There's a bit of a hand wave at the end of the turn. It kinda works, though, since wouldn't he take off running as soon as he say you running?

But... let's say the guy was only 11 meters away. You move 12 meters in your action. Would you be able to close the distance on your action? And hurt him before he could move?

But I digress...



I would recommend you pick one way or the other, and stick with it. Otherwise, they'll stick with the good rolls, and reroll the bad ones.

Anyway... clear?