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BishopMcQ
So, as I was watching the trailer for Gamer, I couldn't help but notice that basically the players had control over a stirrup interface implanted into the "soldiers."

Ignoring some of the social implications--what do people think about implanting stirrup interfaces and full sim-rigs into metahumans? It's slightly more Essence intensive than a standard Move By Wire system, and higher availability, so it'd be less desirable for PCs. Using it on NPCs, could certainly draw parallels between people and animals and ask the question of when do you cross the line between biodrone and cybered metahuman.

Thoughts?
DuctShuiTengu
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 28 2009, 11:11 AM) *
when do you cross the line between biodrone and cybered metahuman.

When it's someone else in the driver's seat.

Now, with that slightly flippant statement out of the way, I could easily see at least some of the more ruthless groups favoring this sort of approach, assuming they can keep from being hacked, for the simple reason that it lets them use their extremely valuable, highly trained professionals' skills while still keeping them out of the line of fire (Sure, dumpshock from having the Drone you're jumped into shot with a Panther XXL hurts, but it hurts you less than it did the drone).

I could also see this approach being popular with certain Johnson's. Grab a SINless (or get Tamanous to grab one for you), stick the appropriate wares in them, and ride that to the meeting with the Runners. So long as you can keep your signal from being traced, any attempts they want to make to track you back to your employer are looking at a starting point of some bum from 2 sprawls over. And it gives them a lot more ability to custom tailor their appearance to suit the impression they're wanting to give.
Stahlseele
Use them for Terrorism.
Implant stuff, implant huge boom thingie, steer into target area, cut connection and have that be the signal for the body to go boom.
GreyBrother
It's cheaper if you use a psychotropic chip and just give the guy a bomb suitcase.
Backgammon
Apparently you don't actually need chips to get people to act as suicide bombers, so I wouldn't call that a good use of the technology.

I don't really see the point overall. What are the pros? No fear, no hesitation, etc. Cons have to be worse performance and vulnerability to hacking. You'd only really want to use this when you don't trust your assets at all. Would it even be cheaper than othe alternatives? Kidnapping a bunch of people and installing cyberware in them vs recruiting easily influenced dispossed youths... I'm sure recruitement is easier.
PirateChef
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 28 2009, 07:14 AM) *
Apparently you don't actually need chips to get people to act as suicide bombers, so I wouldn't call that a good use of the technology.

I don't really see the point overall. What are the pros? No fear, no hesitation, etc. Cons have to be worse performance and vulnerability to hacking. You'd only really want to use this when you don't trust your assets at all. Would it even be cheaper than othe alternatives? Kidnapping a bunch of people and installing cyberware in them vs recruiting easily influenced dispossed youths... I'm sure recruitement is easier.

Time.

I can have you grabbed, chipped, and back on the streets in 12 hours, especially if I don't care about your health. Sure you won't be in top fighting condition, but all I need you to do is walk into the local stuffer shack and press a button.

Conditioning rebellious youth takes a bit longer.
Prime Mover
Actually been toying with this idea for awhile now. A central base of operations somewhere in the world were your highly trained fast response troopers are based. All your major facilities are equipped with a team of "wimps" with stirrup interfaces. Cost wise it's effective in the long run and you never have to pay death benefits. An on call swat team and all it requires is upkeep on some clones, around 2k a month in feeding supplement and biological maintenance.
DuctShuiTengu
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 28 2009, 02:14 PM) *
Apparently you don't actually need chips to get people to act as suicide bombers, so I wouldn't call that a good use of the technology.

I don't really see the point overall. What are the pros? No fear, no hesitation, etc. Cons have to be worse performance and vulnerability to hacking. You'd only really want to use this when you don't trust your assets at all. Would it even be cheaper than othe alternatives? Kidnapping a bunch of people and installing cyberware in them vs recruiting easily influenced dispossed youths... I'm sure recruitement is easier.


How long does it take to train someone to the level of skill possessed by Tir's Ghosts? How much money does it cost to put someone through that kind of training? What if rather than needing to train someone else up to that level - with the associated costs and time - when one of your elite soldiers got killed, you just needed to rip the cyberware out of the dead body and implant it in a live one?

Now, how much does it cost to secure your wireless connection to the resulting soldiers against hacking and jamming? How much do the occasions when those measures aren't enough cost?

Add up all the savings, subtract the added costs, and if the resulting numbers indicate that within the current operating perameters, it's cheaper, the megas are going to be doing it.
otakusensei
Keep in mind you're talking about grunts here too. The kind that can be taken out in large groups by mages and spirits. If your scrupples would allow you to implant a stirrup in a SINless for that position, it might be better to use psychotropic chips and combat drugs. Throw in a cranial bomb just in case.

The stirrup does come in handy for other things though. If it can act as move-by-wire, but let someone else ride, then you could put that in a qualified operative and use the stirrup to have a remote asset operate through them. Suddenly your trained merc can be a top flight surgeon, or demolitions expert. Hacking is always a risk so you wan that physical asset with the rig to have the kill switch on him. The wireless is only on once the hacker gives the clear signal.

Personally the risk to too high for me to ever have one in a character or have a character employ it. However GMing it as a treat for the hacker that takes the time to get the security info, well, those are the type of opportunities that make a session for a player.

"Look guys! I'm a mook, pew pew!"
Backgammon
I'm not sure rigging someone can really give you the precision of movement a metahuman soldier requires. It's fine for critters, I mean all you need to do is move them around and signal the bite/claw attack. But for a metahuman who will presumably be using firearms, it's going to be pretty tought to get the arm potision and stuff just right to aim. Aiming is hard. A quarter of an inch off and you don't hit anything. I don't know if there are rules for that, though - it really is more of a rule thing at this point than a flavour thing.

It's true I guess it would work for suicide bombers and stuff, but the cost of the ware required is pretty high for a one-time usage. I honestly think you're almost tied with good old fashioned indoctrination of malleable idiots.

QUOTE
How long does it take to train someone to the level of skill possessed by Tir's Ghosts? How much money does it cost to put someone through that kind of training? What if rather than needing to train someone else up to that level - with the associated costs and time - when one of your elite soldiers got killed, you just needed to rip the cyberware out of the dead body and implant it in a live one?

Now, how much does it cost to secure your wireless connection to the resulting soldiers against hacking and jamming? How much do the occasions when those measures aren't enough cost?

Add up all the savings, subtract the added costs, and if the resulting numbers indicate that within the current operating perameters, it's cheaper, the megas are going to be doing it.

Don't confuse giving people skillwires versus getting them rigged though. Skillwires will give you easy soldiers. Rigging people will simply additionally dispense you of the "getting willing people" part of the equation. I don't think megacorps would have any use for rigged people. No shadow project is to big for getting caught doing this to be worth it and no project too little for not using willing and trained agents.
BlackJaw
Odd point: The Stirrup Interface lets you run Pilot Programs.

A setup: Wimp + Stirrup would let you run human-drones, that you could jump into. Guards that have no personal life, never leave the compound, never leak info to another company, etc. I'm somehow thinking of the bad movie Universal Soldier. Of course hacking and jamming are issues, but that's true of tanks and helicopters too.

Also: You can get a LOT of cyber, nano, genetic, and bio ware into a properly designed type-o wimp.

It's sort of like cyborg lite.
DuctShuiTengu
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 28 2009, 07:17 PM) *
Don't confuse giving people skillwires versus getting them rigged though. Skillwires will give you easy soldiers. Rigging people will simply additionally dispense you of the "getting willing people" part of the equation. I don't think megacorps would have any use for rigged people. No shadow project is to big for getting caught doing this to be worth it and no project too little for not using willing and trained agents.


Skillwires get you soldiers who have the kind of ability you get with a drone running an autosoft (and are generally less cost-effective for that than the drone, but that's a discussion for another thread). And you still need to worry about that individuals morale and loyalty. Rigging people and putting an actual good soldier at the controls means you only need to worry about the loyalty and morale of the controller - and they should be less likely to panic due to not being in the actual line of fire - and gets you the kind of holistic approach to skill that comes from actually knowing and practicing how to do something - and actually having experience with the situations surrounding the skill - rather than just having ware that can do it for you. An automatics 'soft (whether skill- or auto-) is a substitute for actually having the skill, and a poor substitute for having actual combat experience. Actually rigging the individual gets you past this problem1, since the individual in control has that actual experience. That said, as with your statement about loss of precision with rigging causing potential problems with trying to handle metahumans in combat situations, it's not really something that's reflected by the mechanics.

1: Side note: biodrones with Stirrup Interfaces can have pilot programs and autosofts loaded up, and with the Stirrup system being based on MBW, they could potentially be loaded with skillsofts as well, giving two options for back-ups if you lose - or need to kill - wireless.
BishopMcQ
There's been a lot of talk about return on investment and the usefulness of this to corps. If a corp invests this much money into a soldier, they will want a solid return on investment. Doing this for a trained soldier will probably give a better return than wimpies, but utilizing the Stirrup instead of the MBW has some redundancy systems that could be useful.

What's your take on this scenario--Corp A sends in a strike team equipped with stirrups. Wireless is disabled after uploading a Pilot program with an Empathy program and a handful of skillsofts. Now, the team is trained, and has the skillwire system (with Expert Driver if possible) to help flesh out any mission specific skills that may be needed. The Pilot monitors Vital signs and the Empathy feedback, with instructions to step in if the soldier becomes compromised (Fear, Influence, Mob Mind, etc) Suddenly your soldier can have his soft matter turned off when it becomes a liability rather than an asset.

The Pilot can be programmed to release control back to the Soldier when given a specific pass-phrase, but will continue to monitor.

BlackJaw
The more I think about it, the less I think the Stirrup system is the one that would be most fun to put into a person.

I forget the system name, but one of the other cyberware setups for biodrones uses their existing senses and instincts to control their behavior. Imagine a similar system placed into a human (without their knowledge). Suddenly you can key in their emotions and instincts towards individuals, objects, and places. Make them feel like a protective parrent of a target, or make them feel like someone is a massive threat. Make them desire to hang out somewhere, or an aversion to somewhere. Generaly mess with their head in order to get them to behave how you want.

Anyways: Stirrup interfaces get a little confusing when you combine them with hackers. In theory, a hacker character could have a stirrup in his own body, allowing him to run his own body like a drone (with a pilot program.) That leads directly into the question of if you can rig your own body. That may seem silly utnil realize it provides matrix speeds (intiative passes) in physical form. A rank 1 stirrup would let you rig into your own body and get 3 passes in hot vr... of course you're using one not to "crash" your own body. With a Sim booster and accelerator, you'd be getting 5 passes with one not to crash. A worried GM could, of course, limit the physical passes to match the move by wire intiative passes, I don't think that is spelled out in the book.

As for corporate uses: Putting one of these into a non-soldier. Someone famous? You could rig their body and make them do and say what ever you want. Just remember a Data filter, so they don't remember being rigged. Hell, you could clone up a Wimp clone of them with Stirrups and get nearly the exact same effect while you keep the real target locked up and being interrogated. Their DNA and biometrics would match almost exactly.

Also: Corps aren't the only enemies that might be using something like this. A stirrup'd human body would be the perfect "host" for an AI. A powerful AI might arrange for something like a Wimp with a Stirrup so "he" can operate in a human world. Most scans would show him as a cyber'ed human... something you can't get as a Drone.
BishopMcQ
I think you are referring to the CAST system.
Backgammon
If you want fearless soldiers, could you not achieve it with BTL moodchips? It's not in the rules, but fear is an emotion and emotions can be controlled by BTLs. Which would bring us back to saying it's far simpler to chip your soldiers than getting a stirrup.
Stahlseele
This one is more like the Universal Soldier Movie with Bill Goldberg in it . . Yes, there were 3 UniSol Movies . . and i DID quite enjoy them . .
Yeah, fearless would be one thing. Doably by Chip too. But not the fact that while jumped in, you see/hear/smell everything the wimp does.
That's the full sim-rig-part right there coming into play.
Ravor
Aye, but is the ability to "jump in" worth the extra cost when you can just throw in a simrig and chip them?
Stahlseele
Simrig let's you FEEL what they do.
Stir-Up let's you MAKE THEM DO STUFF.
Yeah, i would definitely pay the price ^^
Ravor
True, a stirup does allow you more fine control and to change the orders in midstream, but a mere chip is cheaper and can also force people to do things while thinking that it was their idea so I guess my question would be is the extra flexibility worth the extra cost in most cases?
Stahlseele
Nah, in most cases probably not.
but in some cases? Very much so
It's specialty Equipment.
Kinda like the difference between an Assault Rifle and a Sniper Rifle.
Ravor
Totally agree. cyber.gif
BlackJaw
Now that I think about it, a Stirrup added to a Move by wire would make an interesting option for a Player Character that takes the Mystery Implant negative quality, especially if they don't have access to it.

Of course no player in their right mind should ever take that negative quality.
Stahlseele
Well, a Cloe with that Set/Get-up would give AI-Players a new Option neh?
Prime Mover
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 28 2009, 06:02 PM) *
Well, a Cloe with that Set/Get-up would give AI-Players a new Option neh?


AI with pilot option or meat option for homebodies.
Lot's of potential.
Backgammon
Sharon Apple?
Prime Mover

Ahhh you gave me Zentradi flashbacks.
ravensmuse
I just wanted to ask - the Stirrup system was originally created by the Proteus group, right? For their "corporate board"?

So many of the ideas in here are alternately scary and imminently devious...
hobgoblin
why am i thinking of the envoy system from altered carbon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_Carbon

i guess one could boil it down to a e-ghost that jumps between wimps (and sometimes anthroform drones) with comlinks and stirrup implants located on different planets, thanks to faster then light data transmissions...

makes one wonder how deep into the dark end of transhumanism shadowrun have gone these days...
Backgammon
Well, hold on. The stirrup system isn't made as a Sleeve system à la Altered Carbon - you have Eclipse Phase for that stuff. The current whiffs of Sleeving are coming from us extrapolating, so strictly speaking it's not Shadowrun that is bein transhuman, it's us. Though, before Rob left the helm of Shadowrun, he was starting to thread pretty heavily into transhumanism as Eclipse Phase leaked out of his brain.
hobgoblin
thats why i added e-ghost and a comlink to house it wink.gif

i dont think there is anything in the rules that says the stirrup has to be controlled from afar smokin.gif

but applying said implant to a wimp is just wishful thinking silly.gif
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