I've been away from Shadowrun for quite some time, haven't played in an active game in a few years, and that was 3rd edition, which I really enjoyed. That didn't stop me from buying all of the 4th edition books as they came out, I even bought extra copies of the core 4th edition book when it came out in anticipation of getting a game together that never materialized. I finally have a gaming group together again and we're looking to play Shadowrun. Only a couple of the other guys have played any Shadowrun, and they stopped at 2nd edition. The guys that are going to GM haven't played any versions of Shadowrun (I'm not going to be GM'ing). No one has played 4th edition. I spent all last evening reading over the 4th edition rules, created a couple characters, read the threads on here, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to play 4th edition. It doesn't seem to do anything better than 3rd, and seems to do a few things worse. I far prefer chargen in 3rd edition. I'm a consumer whore too, I love new and shiny things, new and shiny toys. It should be easier than this to get me excited about a new edition.

So, I need help with these three things:
1) Some 4th edition zealots show me the light and point out all of the really cool things one can do with 4th that you can't do with 3rd. Convince me to play 4th.
2) Assuming 1 fails, I've lost a few 3rd edition books, and need to fill in some blanks in my collection. Suggestions for the best place to pick up a big 3rd edition collection of books?
3) Also assuming 1 fails, links to your favorite 3rd edition house rules. I also lost my house rules file.

Thanks folks!

Personally I enjoy Fourth Edition more than Third Edtion simply because the rules are more streamlined. However this comes at a cost, the rules are more "vague" than I remember Third Edition as being.

Also Fourth Edition uses Fixed TNs, so the game literaly breaks at high dicepools, so make sure that your players understand that ( Rating 4 ) is literally what used to be ( Rating 6 ) and that there are hardcaps now.

The Matrix is way better in SR4. AR and wireless bring the Hacker/Decker back with the party, doing something practical.

Magic is way more unified and streamlined now. You don't have those spells where either Force or the Spellcasting test makes no difference, and all traditions have been unified so it's not like you have to learn a whole new Magic sub-system for each new Tradition.

Those are the two changes that I have heard most consistently positively endorsed by both SR3 and SR4 players. The remaining changes mostly fall into the realm of "personal preference." The SR4 rules lend themselves to faster play, but leave a lot of the details to individual GM ruling.

An example of a "personal preference" change: Dice Pools are gone. Now, the people that I played SR3 with universally said "good riddance." We never really like having to allocate them and track them and what not. Other people lament the loss of Dice Pools greatly.

I encourage you to actually play SR4 before making a final decision on it. I don't believe simply reading RPG rules is an effective way to evaluate them. RPG rules are meant to be played, and many design decisions in the rules may seem strange in reading turn out to be the done because they are optimized for play.

Depends. Remember the Third Ed Rules?
Play 3rd Ed.
Can't remember most of it?
Start over with 4th Ed.
Nice Toys in there.

the only reason i dont play fourth right now is because i dont want to buy the books. play what you have. you have both. try out sr4 for a game or two. if you dont like it back to third.

Do you feel that character optimizer players have a greater chance of breaking 4th edition than 3rd? I don't remember it being an issue with 3rd, at least not with our players.

4th is more simple in some ways more complicated in others. 3e is the most "complete" edition IMHO but its very chunky and rules heavy. Theres a few books that simplify some things like Mr Johnsons little black book. 4e changed a lot both in terms of world and rules so it may feel less complete than 3rd and they are still working the bugs out, it is however a much more consistent system (with a couple exceptions).

In 3rd you were king if you could get your TN reliably down below 4, no matter what. Then you could do silly awesome stuff even with skill of 4 and Combat Pool.
In 4th Ed you are king if you can get your Dicepool reliably to 20 and above, no matter what. By then it is not that hard to roll the required sum of successes . . err . . HITS . . stupid slang-change <.<

Anyone here loved 3rd edition, tried 4th, and went back to 3rd? Or who loved 3rd edition, tried 4th, and have really enjoyed it?

Tete, so you prefer 4th to 3rd then? Were you a big fan of 3rd? Your signature seems to indicate you were a bigger fan of 2nd.

Malachi (nice name) - In any of the 4-5 3rd edition games I played in, I don't think we ever had a PC decker, and maybe only 1 rigger that entire time, so even though it would be a system improvement to have seamless decking in the game, I'm not sure how much of a vote for the system it is. The streamlined magic thing on the other hand would be nice. That was always wonky with 3rd edition. I'm a fan of resource management, so I liked dice pools, myself. The whole argument about trying before judging doesn't work for me anymore. People used that argument on me to suck me in to trying 4th edition D&D (I really liked 3rd edition). I didn't like the looks of the system from reading it, and 10 sessions and 5 painful months of gaming in, my opinion was worse. I'd rather not waste a bunch of time learning a system that I'm going to ultimately dislike. On the other hand, my opinions of 4th edition Shadowrun aren't nearly as negative as my opinions of 4th edition D&D are, so with enough positive feedback, I'd still give it a shot.

Stahlseele - Yeah, I remember 3rd edition really well and can whip out a character in NSRCG in 20 minutes, and understand that character backwards and forwards. Wish they would've done an NSRCG for 4th.

Ravor - So you're saying the system breaks at higher power levels due to massive dice pools? Just how vague are the 4th edition rules, compared to 3rd? Any examples?

Edge seems kind of cool in 4th edition, that's one big change I think is cool.

The reason for playing SR4 can't be found in the rules! The setting's simply superior. No more dusty late 80s cyberpunk supposed near future with tech outdate by RL 21th century i-phones. No need to say more. Although I could mention vampires. *run 4 cover*

I've played every edition, and I find SR4 to be a very strong edition. I loved 2nd, I loved 3rd, and I love 4th. Personally, there's a few tweaks I'll make if I ever run a campaign again, but then, there were tweaks I made to every other edition as well (and damn near every other game I've played, really). So...

The wireless matrix is a huge step forward for the game, as well.

Loved 1st loved 2nd didn't get to play alot of 3rd.

Loved em all but liking 4th edition best.
1.Comprehensive
2.Inclusive
3.Streamlined
4.Customizable
5.Can count the number of minor tweaks I've had to make to my home game on one hand. (Other versions took fingers and toes.)

Play what you feel most comfortable playing/running. I'm a game junkie and I haven't always changed editions when a game line evolves due to dislike of the changes. This has not been true of SR, every edition has been an improvement. Have Fun and good luck.

Edit: And SR4A out on Aug 11th, just a sweet book.

Would 4th Edition be easier than 3rd for a couple of brand new Shadowrun GMs, with everyone in the entire group learning together, as opposed to 3rd edition with at least a couple of the players really familiar with the system (but still no GM Shadowrun experience)?

How about really cool toys only available in 4th Edition for players? Particularly players who love adepts, both weapon-foci melee adepts, and gun adepts?

Yes, to both.

Outright, SR4A is a simple, easy to follow system. Attribute+Skill, total up amount of rolls of 5 or 6. I would, however, recommend for a new GM not using Technomancers,
simply because they have alot more they can do then a normal hacker(potentially).

For Adepts, you can have the initiative boosting stuff more cheaply then in previous editions. Additionally, your adepts can boost the skills and attributes
required for those. You can even do some new things like Wall Running(if you have Street Magic).

And, yes, there are PLENTY of new toys only in SR4. Augmentation, Arsenal, and Runners Companion. Also, your characters in SR4 use their positive
and negative qualities to make characters that are more then just their gear, ware, and skills...

I'll ech this sentiment. I played alot of 2nd, only a little 3rd. But have been running the 4E game for over a year (come of all things AUG 11 (coincidence-I think not!!!! Break out the tin foil hats boys and girls! ). Overall the dropping of the dice pools makes combat easier to run-the lack of adjusted TN being a big part of this (IMHO)

OT---the 3rd vs 4E comparisons has caused some flame wars on Dumpshock. Lots of strong believers on both sides.
Can we all keep it civil-pretty please with Nerps on top?

Aye, personally I do believe that "optimized" characters break the game system more easily in Fourth Edition than in Third Edition but as long as the players agree to limit their dicepools and not go overboard the rule system runs perfectly. In my opinion the Char Gen Rules need some serious tweaking.

As for the rules being "vague", well the example that comes to mind first is that we know that active foci can be attacked in Astral Combat but we don't actually have any rules that describe how they defend themselves or what happens if they are "popped". But mostly the "vagueness" is more of a "feeling" I get, perhaps it would help if I compared Third Edition to GURPS and Fourth Edition to nWoD in the way that the rules "feel" to me.

I don't consider the Matrix 2.0 to be better than Matrix 1.0, just different. Sure, it's nice that Deckers can actually do their thing while the rest of the party plays and bunker Deckers are largely a thing of the past, but like in every edition of Shadowrun, the Matrix Rules just feels "wrong" in places.

On the other hand, I love the changes that they made to the Magic Rules.

Yes 2nd is my game of choice, because it has enough rules without getting bogged down (as long as you stick to the core and just flavor as you wish). 4th and 3rd which is better for me? That is a toss up. 3rd is far better in having solid rules laid out for most situations along with staying consistent with 1e&2e garbage that has been there forever. 3e also tried to make it more fun for all with less solo decker game & wired reflexes dude doing all the combat, etc. 4e is a great departure from what was (not a bad thing). They made its less crazy in the subsystems and tried to make the system be more logical and allow more character build options, however like 1e you get some very "did they mean to do that?" moments, 4A is more like 2e and while there is still plenty of buried crazy in there but it is less of it than any previous edition. For me I just never had a problem with early 2e level of crazy.

:edit: I should add I don't mind adjustable TNs as a GM, I can pretty much handle them on the fly without difficulty or flipping through a book. However I have probably GMed something like 100 sessions of Shadowrun 2e/3e and 50 or so of oWOD so its not unfamiliar. The fixed TN I don't see as an advantage or disadvantage for me but if I were to pick it up new I can totally see how a fixed TN makes it simpler.

Did your players avoid them because they weren't interested in the concept or because they knew the sub-systems were a giant time-sink? If you do go with SR4, I highly encourage you to give the Matrix stuff (Rigger or Hacker) another try. Otherwise (IMO) you're missing out on about 1/3 of what makes Shadowrun cool. Wait until the 20th Anniversary book hits the shelves. It re-wrote the entire Wireless World chapter from the previous printing, and it does a much better job of laying out the rules.

Malachi - I'm not sure, honestly. I don't think the concept was of much of interest to any of our players. But I can't really say for sure. It never interested me personally, it's not what I loved about Shadowrun.

How about combat? Assuming a state of system mastery, is 4th significantly faster than 3rd?

*personal opinion YMMV* I would say once mastered combat is about the same in 2, 3 & 4 with the core. The real advantage of 4 is it would more than likely take you less time to master the combat rules.

:edit: I take that back 4e would be faster all the way around if your 3e game had high target numbers just due to having to roll up the dice time.

I would say... nearly the same speed for both. Third edition MAY sometimes be slower, when much more is going on. But the old: Attack, defend, check armor, calculate damage, soak. is nearly the same. More things to consider in third; more dice involved in fourth.

I began playing the fourth edition a few months ago, and played mainly the third (and at the beginning the second) for years. I would say: the fourth is ok to play. Sometimes i am a bit puzzled or even annoyed or angry at some decisions they made for some rules or some background. (Limits for augmented attributes and arbitary limits on IP's per round i just hate, and the changes to the magic traditions i loathe. And i really don't like the wireless, unlimited memory for ALL - matrix) But all in all it still IS shadowrun. I even found things i like (Playing an AI is cool, the strategic vehicle-combat is VERY much cleaned up, even if sometimes a bit unrealistic and some mechanisms are really ok (edge for karmapool for example)

So overall. i prefer 3rd Edition, but i have no...well only few problems with playing the new one. I still having lot of fun. What really matters is that the people you play with are alright. (Also you can bug and beg do undo some rulechanges *g*)

I will add my voice the chorus of old school players that love 4e. I started playing SR the week 1e hit the shelves and I own every SR book published in English to date (in some form or another). I have multiples of most 3e core books because I played so much 3e that my books were in tatters (and I can't have that mussing up my collection). The other day I realized I have 3 copies of Rigger 3 for no good reason at all. In my short tenure as a playtester I have even read stuff that hasn't been published yet.

And I will say that hands down 4e is my favorite.

I like SR4 a lot, even while being critical of the matrix system. I wasn't very impressed by 3rd ed, it felt like a belt sander had been used to give SR2 more polish and somehow diminished the overall package. I found it sterile, I guess.

Having taught people how to play all editions, 4 is by far the easiest to learn. Dice pools, while great for those of us who can do statistics in our heads, drive everyone else nuts.

The fixed TNs are another blessing as a +-1 threshold is equivalent to +-3 dice. In prior editions a +-1 TN was anything from no impact (6<->7) to doubling/halving your successes (5<->6).

Magic is much cleaner. The rules on learned spell force mesh well with the magic-as-advanceable-stat aspect. Summoning is also viable for hermetics, which makes me happy.

Rigging wasn't bad mechanically in earlier editions but the sr4 drones are cheap and disposable while still useful. Before they were expensive and, depending on the model, overpowered compared to the other characters. If a rigger lost a drone it was a tragedy, now they are closer to a pricey operating expense, like APDS.

I was unfond of sr3's nerf on bio and cyber and while sr4 has similar limits, so much tech can now be worn that it feels much closer to the SR2 limits. The rescaling of costs also helps b/c you don't need to earn so much that you could retire just to by a piece of tech.

The matrix, well, apparently once you put "sr developer" on your resume your computer knowledge only comes from Tron, the Lawnmower Man, and Newsweek.
Go watch Ghost in the Shell:Stand Alone Complex and grab one of the many matrix rulesets if you want a hacker or 'mancer. If you don't have any, the RAW will do good enough for you GM to roll dice.

But isn't Tron and Lawnmower Man some of the big cyberpunk inspiration for Hackers?

Let's not forget that we are not playing a game based on real life, but a game based on fiction and film exactly like the two mentioned.

Lars

Coming from a D&D background, I must say i'm impressed.
This is a debate over "3rd vs. 4th" that didn't turn into a full troll on troll battle after the first few posts.
I'm a new guy myself, but as a new guy I still love 4th edition shadowrun more than the D&D 3.5 rules or D&D 4th edition rules. (not the games themselves, just their rules).

I played SR3 for 7 Years and was a little hesitent at first about 4th ed
but now I'm a big Fan.
The SR4 Rules run more smoothly than the old SR3 Rules.Combat is better (now Light Pistols aren't useless anymore.The ...whatsitcalled in Englisch" Tarnfaktor "is gone (good Riddance !) ) and easier also for the GM , he can handwave Rules much easier now(if need be).
Hacking ist now much easier and the Hacker is an important Part of the Team.Magic is easier and more Streamlined,you can invent your own Tradition,no more Add-On Rules that you have to Learn
You now have the Technomancer (which is ImO better than the Otaku ,because I don't like to play Kids in SR )
Rigger and Hacker use the same Matrix Rules,but different Skills (no Arbitrant(I hope,thats the right Word for "forced") distinction between Decker-Rules and Rigger-Rules)
There are more Rules (f.E. Initiation) included in the SR4 than in the old SR3 BBB
all-in-all I would vote twice for SR4

Hough !
Medicineman

SR4 is so much more streamlined than SR3, I'd never go back.

- J.

Concealabilityi don't know if THAT is something i would see as a good point for SR4arbitrary

Concealability Thanks

With Handwaving I meant making up Rules in an Instant.
GM:"so you want to Block The Door, so that the angry Troll won't Get cha....Rules,hemmm"
"OK, You roll with STR and CON and the charging Troll Rolls also but Gets +2 for Charging +2 for Mass.Who's got more successes ?"
Thats what I Meant.Easy ,intuitive Rules.Easy to learn,easy to come up with
In SR3 this was Awkward ,even for me with 7 Years of experience.In SR4 it became so easy
and we had to make so many Houserules 'cause we thought the SR3 rules Sucked were wrong
now we have only a few or use optional Rules (Hacking f.E.)

with an easy Dance
Medicineman

Con?
And for that example in SR3, i would hae both parties roll strength and body.
Target number is the strength of the other party.
Human with Strength 7, Troll with Strength 12
Troll Rolls Body and Strength against Target-Number of 7
Human Rolls Body and Strength against Target-Number of 12

You should check out the Upgraded Character Generator for 4th edition. There is a download link in my signature, and you can read about it in the Community Projects area of the forum.

It enables creating characters with Excel in a spreadsheet (or open office, although it doesnt like open office 3 running on XP). It is setup to allow building with the Build Point system or the Karma build system. It also has switches for a few house rules. It fully supports infected, metavarients, drakes, shifters and other sapients. Mages can initiate, create and track ally spirits. There is a page for tracking and modifying your vehicles and drones.. and even custom lifestyle options. It even has some support for playing as AI or Free Spirits.

It is the total package, and I dare say it is comparable in quality and completeness to NSRCG. It has been a lifesaver for me, as I can whip all kinds of characters out in no time at all.


I started playing during 2nd edition, and played alot of 2nd, 3rd, and fourth. My vote goes overwhelmingly to 4th.

At first I hated the idea of losing pools... but after just a few sessions, I have seen the light. Everything moves much much quicker.

On top of that, the magic system is much more modular now, and very customizable.

Having no target numbers is amazing. I used to love calculating TN... I can remember being at a bachelor party and one of my friends was drinking way too much as we partied near a bonfire. I said 'Your drunk!' and he said, 'No Im not, just test me.. I am at 100% mental ak..aqu... acuity!'

I said, 'What is the target number for a cyclops shooting a heavy pistol with 4 skill, smartlink goggles with lowlight, and a lasersight while having taken aim for 4 actions, against a running target in partial lighting at 8 meters range.'

He eyes suddenly focused on me, the firelight gleaming in his eyes, and he said with serious intensity, 'Is he standing still, or chasing the target?'
'Standing still' I replied with equal seriousness.

'6!' He replied in a victorious voice.

'Wrong! Its base 4, +2 from one eyed, -1 from smartlink goggles, -2 for taking aim twice, running +2, partial lighting with non-natural low-light is +1, and Medium range is 7 target number. Your DRUNK!'

He cried out, 'No Im not. I just forgot that smartlink goggles and lasersights dont stack! But look.. I am still coordinated'
He then proceed to throw a footwide board on the Bonfire we were drinking around, then did a running cartwheel over the board and across the fire... and even managed too keep his pants up in the process.

Anyway, the target number system was so flawed. 2 points of TN change was a world of difference... It made smartlinks King, and physad pistol-slingers worthless. In the new system, a smartlink is two more dice, while physad powers can raise a combat skill by 3 dice. Oh, and the akimbo rules are perfect.

All and all, it is pwnage, and I will never look back.

What about the Door,what about the Mass difference,what about the Circumstances ?
now you have to start calculating,etc.
more Cumbersom in SR3 than in SR4 (ImO)
Plus what Damien Night says

with a new and improved Dance
Medicineman

SR 4 is so much faster and all the mechanics are consistent through out. I really love it.

Third was a serious improvement over 2nd but they kept bolting new game mechanics on to it till it was a bitch to run.

Gave me a headache trying to use the separate Rigger vs Spider (Building Security Rigger) combat system.

Also cutting the price of cyberware and making Riggers a specialization of hacker helps.




And since you are asking about 3rd I'll assume you have access to some SR 3 materials.

Well nothing stops you from running early SR adventures using SR 4. Worth doing for Harlequin alone.




It is also much easier for a beginning SR GM to run in 2050s.

It is like basing a mystery in the 1930 before cell phones, tolltag tollways, and DNA analysis. You don't wait for the lab boys to tell you who did it, you have to go hit the streets and do some detective work.

Things are a lot simpler. You can totally ignore Technomancers, broadcasting your PAN, wireless cyberware hacking, Genetech, and Nano technology and or just work then gradually in to your campaign once you are up and running as one of a kind beyond SOTA technology.




My campaign is in 2054 and I'm using all the classics.

All the wireless stuff exists but no one puts more than carrying around cred/paydata on the wireless network (The good stuff is all on the matrix and no hot sim with wireless is possible).

Double the price of all Bioware and increase the grade by one for detection purposes and off you go.

If you mean Hackers the movie, with smoking "Gibson" servers and VR fly throughs then yes. But the IRL white hat hackers I hang out with were much more motivated by Wargames. (Not that they didn't love Tron) .




I'll gladly throw realism under the bus for playability. But little else meshes up better with SR4 in comparison to GitS:SAC. A show with people hacking cyberware, matrix dives and flaky AI that don't always obey as expected sound like the BBB.

I like Tron but face it, Tron was about a guy who gets physically digitized and sucked into a mainframe where he interacts with personified hardware and software. Lawnmower man was a Flowers For Algernon meets Carrie with more glowing bits. I suppose if the echo mirage tester had been a mage you might get Lawnmower Man in SR, maybe, but I'm pretty sure Batou and Togasu are better SR4 exemplars than Jobe.

If you still have your stuff, not that much 4th stuff around, stay with SR3 for a bit. Try out SR4 on the side if you must. THEN decide if you like the SR4 System at all.


the Door is just there, doesn't do nothing, if it's not propperly closed.
if it is? Troll against barrier-Rating to crack it open, and THEN the other stuff.
And i STILL wanna know what you would use CON for in this . . Would you try to con the Door into resisting the Troll more? O.o


Well THAT one is true at least . . But also, the Difference of 4 to 8 Dice is a World of Difference in SR4 to my poor uneducated Troll-Eyes.

CON as a Measure for Body Mass and STR as a Measure for the Muscle strength to keep the Door closed/force it Open...
Gnarghhh,now I get it ....*Moan,Palmface* .... I Mean BOD & STR
4 or 8 Dice are 1 or 2 Successes(3 if you roll Lucky)They are Important but ImO not as important as a Targetnumber of +/- 2

Hough
Medicineman

head>desk.
OK, now i get that thing with the CON . . you only replaced the K of Kon which is the abbreviation(why is that such a long word?) for Konstitution, which is, again, the german Word for BODY with a C . . Carry on soldier, nothing to see here <.<#
4 or 8 Dice means an AUTOMATIC 2 Successes, if you allow buying of hits.
It's a POSSIBLE 4 to 8 Hits, if you have loaded dice or hellish luck with rolling ^^

Thanks, that's a pretty good idea there. I'm still on the fence, but I suppose I'm closer to falling over to the 4a side than 3rd. I'm surprised there aren't very many 3rd edition supporters here.

Not many, but a few select heavy hitters.

I never played 3rd, though I own it. I went 1st->2nd->4th. It seemed okay, though I found the artwork too cartoonish and some of the metaplotlines also. All I can contribute to this is the following:
1. Regardless of being better or worse than previous rule sets, 4th edition taken on its own merits plays very well.
2. The changes to technology, e.g. wireless Matrix, are almost necessary for new players in the modern era because the pre-Internet, pre-mobile phones and pre-powerful laptop and pre-smartphone retro-future of previous editions seems horribly backward compared to what we have in our own world.
3. It is certainly possible to retconn out some of the history and previous adventures. For example, I am using Ghost Cartels, blended with the Chicago plot-line blended with Harlequin. It's actually quite easy to shuttle some of the metaplots backwards or forwards in time. Deus hasn't happened in my game either and that hasn't caused anyone's head to implode.

This isn't strictly what you asked, but I hope it helps,

K.

Heh, no problem there. The entire retro-future thing is kind of flavorful. If we go with 4th edition, I'm pretty sure we're still going to go with cndblank's suggestion and play in a 3rd edition world.

I started with 3rd edition and loved it. When 4th was announced I was dead set against it. Then when I finally had it in my hands I loved it and defended it for a long time. Then Unwired and Runners Companion came out and it disgusted me to the point where I haven't played SR in 1 year now. (Although thinking of getting back in)

Neither system has very good rules. I'd have to say that of the two SR4 is the better although that isn't really saying much. The group I was in were able to get a grip on the very bulky SR3 matrix rules so we didn't really gain anything out of SR4 other than less paperwork. I'd say that it is much easier to break the system in SR4 because it is harder for the GM to manipulate probability behind the screen (by inflating TNs in SR3). But this can be handled by the group agreeing to not inflate their dice pools.

The thing SR4 has going for it is the cool factor. There is a lot more cool stuff in SR4 than in previous editions. The rule seems to be "is it cool? Put it in the books!" That works okay (you just have to cut the stuff that isn't cool for you) but can cause unbalance issues. But at least it is there if you want to use it.

I havent posted very much on DS for while. Not since the proliferation of 4th edition.

I love SR 3rd. Played alot of 2nd before it and loved that too. 3rd fit together better in my experiences over 2nd.

I have never been very enamoured with 4th edition. But I do know people like it. Personally I liked the massive rules variety in Magic and the way the Matrix worked without the wireless networks and so forth.

But I would say go with whatever seems to work best. Maybe set up a run and play through it with one edit and then do the same run on the other edition. (perhaps Foodfight?)

I highly recommend getting the excel character sheets by Autarkis, Blakkie & co. It makes life very easy to build a character. Drop down skill lists, an awesome equipment list (I probably need to get a new version), tracks cyber/bio, character build points, merits, etc is just all around easy to use.

The only reason it might not be easier than NSRCG is that you can accidentally copy/paste to destroy formulas if you unlock the sheet. Of course, you can destroy your characters in NSRCG as well so meh.

thought about this and SR4 sounds great but there's alot I prefer in SR3 over 4/4a. Not because I dislike it but because of the depth and feel of the games. SR3 the rules may be clunky in some areas but they each had their own uniqueness which reflected the archtype you were playing.

SR4 does have alot of interesting ideas character types that appeal to me, but I may have to wait till more books come out before I make the switch. Other things that annoyed me about the system initially I've learned to ignore and see things in a better light about the system.

Overall I'd say if you got new players who aren't very experience players go with SR4, otherwise SR3 has alot to offer still.

If this is the simplified version, I'm terrified and can only imagine what SR3 is like. I come from a BESM background, so this already strikes me as horrifyingly complex at times. That's my big argument for SR4 right there. It hurts your brain less.

Think about the following:
There's entire BOOKS for Hackers, Mages, Samurai and Technomancers in SR4.
In SR3, there were entire Books for Deckers, Riggers, Mages and Samurai.
But in SR3 Times, these Books were much thicker in most cases *grins*
Most groups i know pretty much did away with the SR3 Matrix rules because nobody wanted to play a Decker because of the Rules.
Same goes for Riggers. And don't get me started on the Man and Machine / Arsenal Medicine and Close Combat rules . .
If you are a beginner with no knowledge whatsoever, do yourself a favour and make a big detour to not get into SR3. Start with SR4.

Honestly, although 3rd Edition remains my favorite version of the rules, I have to concede and say 4th edition is the way to go.

It's much easier to pick up and play a lot faster than the rules heavy version that preceded it, and a lot of processes have been streamlined since the company took its Universal (skill+attribute) test stance for most of the game's rules.

I personally prefer the old cyberpunk to the new transhumanism style in my Shadowrun setting, so I made a few personal tweaks and turned the grittiness back up a few notches to make the world still feel like it did back with SR3 (I kept all the wireless stuff and the maps are identical to 2070, I just changed the mood), but it's all a personal choice as far as that's concerned.

So, from an SR3 GM who genuinely loves SR3, I still have to say 4th.

They're both fun games, really. If you have players familiar with SR3 then it's probably easier to jump back into that; if not, SR4 is simpler. Actually, both are quite simple at core, but SR3 loves to add special systems that work in their own quirky ways. SR4 is more disciplined about it. You can actually ignore most of the complexities of SR3 if you want to without causing problems, but for some those strange tables and strange results are part of the appeal.

I personally prefer SR3, but as something of a roleplaying omnivore I'll go ahead and say you don't need to fear getting D&D 4E results from SR4. SR4 is a big change, yes, but not nearly that big. It's still Shadowrun. (And interestingly, it feels like a Shadowrun/nWoD hybrid system-wise, but while I like WoD quite a lot, I don't like the mix.)

Why not take a poll of your group? If anyone has strong feelings, go with that. If no one does, go with whatever saves you the most money, or flip a coin, or whatever. As for getting the SR3 books, while hard copies are really eBay searches now, many (all?) are available as PDFs.