Hey all, I've been wondering. Trolls get Thermographic Vision, now is that something they can turn on and off or is it thermographic all the time?

All the time - it is natural vision, not a cybernetic visual modification.

Note that this doesn't mean that they are treated as having only thermographic vision active. They get to use the most advantagous modifier available between normal vision and thermographic vision.

It's on all the time. Yet it does not replace normal vision but extend it - in case you were wondering.
Trolls see everything a normal human sees (colors etc.) plus infra-red.

Is it always the most advantageous modifier? I thought that while trolls could see both normal colors and thermo, their vision would still be hindered by Thermal Smoke and the like.

They see the normal spectrum of light, but the brightness of the heat makes it harder to see through the smoke. Trolls see both the smoke and the heat, so they get modifiers from both. People who don't see the heat, don't get the extra glare (normal vision -4 vs. thermographic -6).

Am I wrong?

I've always thought that Trolls would take the worst modifier (-6) with Thermal smoke.

This is unfortunately one of the breakdowns of the SR4 system. Every system has some cracks where the mechanics don't work as perfectly as we'd all wish.

If you go one way (take the worst modifier) then Thermal smoke has a use, BUT pretty much all the forms of vision become worthless (Normal vision has a worse modifer than low-light, under low light conditions, for example)

You go the other way as most people do (take the best modifier), then Thermal Smoke is non-nonsensical as it's modifier is worse than normal vision everyone has as you've already noticed.

This is one of those cases, that for most people RAW is not sufficient. You will need RAI or "Common Sense"

The simplest suggestion I've seen so far is to make a exception for thermal smoke, but otherwise use the best modifier not the worst.

I don't see the problem with taking the best modifier. Sure, trolls have normal vision, but an IR camera will take that -6 until its operator spends an action to switch modes. Same goes for most metahumans using gear-based thermo. If you want to run separate feeds for normal and thermo to get around it, then you're risking distraction penalties when something is visible on one feed but not the other.

That would pretty much make Thermal Smoke useless. I think the RAI exception for this sounds like a great solution.

This is the right answer. Essentially, those tables were compiled for people forced to choose between modes. Thermal smoke is even more "opaque" to thermal sensors than any kind of obscurement smoke is to visible-light sensors. Any (meta)human with natural (or magical, which is essentially the same thing) thermalvision has both working at once, so while the infared part would be obscured by the thermal smoke, the normal light portion continues to work normally, but with decreased efficiency. It's one of the reasons people with natural thermovision (in theory) are more reluctant to go with cybereyes. Now, it's probable that bioware thermo would function similarly, but that's a little more gray and up to the individual GM. As a side note, there used to be mention in 1st Ed that natural lowlight vision allowed color definition in lowlight situations whereas normal (or technological) vision goes to mostly black and white in those circumstances, which is why I am (still) reluctant to get cybereyes with my elf.

An excellent point, if for one small problem.

I can't find anywhere in the 2070s world that uses only one kind of vision mode that isn't normal vision.

They build Thermal vision into contact lens that overlay it over your normal vision. Same with cybereyes. Same with Drone sensors (every drone has normal light vision cameras standard. Thermal is an add on on top of the camera not in replacement of it). Same with most security cameras as well as far as I can tell (Thermal is a extra cost onto a normal vision camera).

Thermal Smoke's modifer makes sense by RAW in a world where some things see only in the IR spectrum. As far as I can tell SR as of 4th edition is not one of those worlds. Layered Multispectrum senses seem to be the norm, not the exception in 2070. And against multispectrum senses that -6 never comes up.

I too remember when there was a distinction between 'natural' and 'augmented' visions. I think there even used to be different modifiers (ie. The dude with cybereyes had different lowlight modifers than an elf, even tho they were both using the same type of vision). However much like smartlinks, datajacks, and other bits this seems to be one of the things technology has conquered in Shadowrun (or done away with by developers looking to simplify rules).

See, here's my answer: Magic. The natural infravision only appeared after the awakening, so it's not strictly "natural". I would expect that it would allow the mind to screen out things it doesn't need since it's an EXTENSION of your natural abilities rather than a replacement for it, which is what my argument is based on. In nearly all cases where it counts, magicly based equivalents to technology generally offer minor but occasionally significant benefits in terms of things like user-friendliness. Sort of like how Wired Reflexes 3 if left always on makes a person jumpy, while the bioware version is nowhere near as hard on the psyche (part of why I think the essence cost is so much lower - you can still live more normally) and magic is literally seamless.

You are of course free to disagree of course, since it's gray as all drek, but that's MY reasoning on the matter.

Umm, unless I've missed something I don't think your IPs from bio can ever be turned off so in fact you would be "twitchy" all of the time. Of course in Fourth Edition this only really comes up if you are trying to sneak past motion sensors so it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be when you'd wind up shooting someone on reflex.

*deep breath*
Ok, that's not for patience, it's to focus, because I want this particular argument, which is based entirely on very OLD fluff at this point, to be clear and concise.

Although the system does not actually have meaningful rules for it, Wired Reflexes must be turned on and off (which, if you think about it, means they would be unavailable when checking for surprise if you weren't already on a 'run for example) by the user. Since 'runners tend to be paranoid individuals, in public they would often leave them on most of the time. I remember a couple canon stories where people noticed a veteran sammie was seriously twitchy or that a kid with new wires would jump at EVERYTHING. It's inorganic input and processing superceeding the body's natural ability to process and react to stimuli of all kinds.

When bioware first appeared (ShadowTech) there was a good amount of fluff about the soft benefits of the new 'ware, how it was easier to adjust to because it was usually improving on what was already there. For example, the IP boosters were thickening and lengthening the communications bundles in the body and increasing the density of cells in the primary processing centers of the brain. That means that you're still going through the natural channels to process the data, and you are consequently going to react more naturally. Yes, you will still be a little twitchy at the higher ends, but it's still mostly true improvement of natural ability.

Magical enhancements are... well, magical. They respond at need, and in terms of how they "feel" I would say they duplicate the essential functions of the bioware. Both Bioware and Magic are technically "always on" but since they are handled by the body's natural (upgraded) processing channels, it's not as damaging to the psyche.

I should probably change the descriptions to: "Jumpy" for higher end Wired Reflexes and "Twitchy" to the less invasive methods. One of those stories I remember talked about a sammy who had just upgraded to high end Wired Reflexes having to resist drawing down on all loud noises or fast motions because the system wasn't giving his meat brain time to fully process what his body was already responding to on the wire'.

Was that clear? I feel like I made a bit of a hash of it, but... anyhow, that's my attempt.

Sure, but I figure that the tech has largely improved, after all we no longer have to buy a second implant just to have the ability to shut our wires down, and if I remember correctly although bio wasn't as harsh it still had a noticible effect on someone.

I haven't agreed with Ravor a lot so far, but in this case I do. There seems to be a general theme of SR4 that the progress of technology is removing most of the drawbacks of older technology (which only makes sense).

For example, the Matrix now has AR, Trodes are as good as a Datajack and even the Mage carries the equivalent of a low grade cyberdeck in many parties. Smartlinks are another example, as there is little to no drawback to having a completely external system, which means again the tech spreads throughout the party and and PCs that might not previously had it now do because the drawbacks are gone.

If you were to make the argument that some of the 'flavor' of SR is lost by this I would be hard pressed to disagree, but it's a sacrifice we make for a system with a easier learning curve and faster mechanics.

As for your point itself, I remember back then myself and your memory matches mine. I believe that in SR4 Wired Reflexes still have an 'off' switch because of the basic rules of Cyberware (it's a computerized implant with variable levels of performance, therefore you can turn it off with a Free Action) However the thread had a SR4 tag on it, so I assumed the OP was specifically asking for 2070s information. And I believe the current fluff for SR4 is that most of those problems were 'old tech' and have been solved. Natural thermal vision is no longer superior to artificial both mechanically and thematically, for a more on topic example.

However it was a clear, concise, and logical post if that was what you were trying for

And I just made the mistake of confusing Ravor with someone else. My Apologies Ravor.

No biggie, although now I'm wondering if my feelings should be hurt or not.

I don't think I'm important enough for it to matter if you agree or disagree with me

As for memorable-ness stuff, I wouldn't worry I sure as heck remember you easily now!

I was figuring for the changes in 2070 in my reply, but I was listing the original baselines. The trick with wired reflexes is that it's BYPASSING whole segments of the natural process, and doing things FOR THE CHARACTER through very advance Heurestic learning algorythms and brilliant systems. It's improved the jumpiness probably, but the inate problem is insoluable. Move-By-Wire is even worse, in a way, because it can't be turned off. Do note, that despite 20 game-years in the 6^th World, Wired Reflexes still have the same base level essence costs; That tells me a lot of the problems are fundamentally unavoidable.

It's largely arguing about the number of angels/demons/fairies that can dance on the tip of an optical patch cable, but it's an interesting discussion. Do note, please, that the opening story in the 4th Ed main rule book has a sammy with cybereyes who is actively switching modes between low-light, thermo and ultrasound then back... so I think at LEAST on the eye thing, the fluff they chose to include (and the HAD to have vetted the MAIN title story introducing the new era pretty closely... right?) seems to indicate it's still separate and distinct running modes with gear and chrome.

Actually thermal smoke has a use.

Think of the guys w/ old school NVG's or a thermo overlay on their normal vision... until they spend an action to turn off the thermo, they're blind.

That's an action they're not shooting at you, or they're blind to you while you move.


Also against trolls... it still has a use. If you throw normal smoke under daylight conditions... instead of the normal -2 they'd get for smoke, they get the -4 normal vision, so it's still a 2 dice penalty increase.

Maybe my physics is a bit off, but I liken Thermal Smoke to an IR flashlight. You see the light shining into your eyes, you get the modifier and don't see thing behind the light so well. It doesn't even matter so much how well you see other things besides the light, as the light is the thing that is blocking your vision.

But of course, if in your games the sight is magical, it's easy to see how that would work out for the best in every situation.

Whatever, as long as everyone around your table agrees on the rules and is having fun