Apologies if its been covered before or I'm having a brainfart reading the rule book, but does the old theory of not being able to use magic while viewing the world through electronic glasses (i.e. AR) still apply in 5th?

We have a new player who brought a fresh outlook to this ingrained opinion, which is that in the world of google glass, there's no reason why AR glasses couldn't be compatible with optical viewing of targets for mages.

See page 281: "Step 2:Choose the target," 2nd paragraph:

However AR is not replacing your actual vision it is an overlay, it's more like what google glass and the like do so yes you can cast with AR active. Now no you couldn't use the snipers camera gun or digital binoculars but something in normal vision range would be fine. Even in 4th edition AR was an overlay to regular vision not a replacement for it. So you have always been able to cast with AR glasses on anyone doing otherwise may be confused by the concept or wants to keep casters out of the matrix

It will depend on the glasses. If the AR is projected onto the lens so it's an overlay you can use with the mojo.

If however the Lens does not let light straight through but rather acts as a receiver on the outside and projects on the inside, then this would not be straight imaging, but again this will vary by models.

Thanks people, my initial response was the same as forgarn's, my newbie player agrees with Fiddler.

Sounds like I should put it to a vote as RAW are ambiguous.

It is a bit nebulous. The only vision enhancement I recall that it specifically called out as digital is vision magnification. I would kind of assume that Low Light and Thermo fall into that category as well since I can't think of any other way that would get pulled off. I would think Flare Comp would just be non-digital high-tech polarizing lenses. Really no idea about vision enhancement.

i would rule that you would have to be able to perceive the target without the assistance of the AR glasses, but that they do not inherently block casting. depending on circumstance, you may take a penalty due to distraction, of course (like having wireless enabled in a spam zone) or for other reasons (if you specifically have a large opaque "window" open in your image link, you likely won't be able to see things behind it).

A bigger question for me is can AR help to see potential targets in the first place.

Imagine you're wearing AR goggles in low light. The goggles are optical with the ability to display certain tactical info. Normally, there's the low light visibility modifier. Now imagine seeing an AR outline of a human figure detected by low light or thermal sensors. "Ahh, there she is. I can make her out now." Would that be a way to reduce the negative visibility modifier?

I'm not talking about overlaying the human figure with an opaque (or even transparent) image, but rather an obvious outline that doesn't obscure the target at all.

Another thing I thought of would be "recognition" outlines. The outlines of friends recognized by software are green, unknown people would be yellow, and confirmed foes would be red. What this would accomplish is to prevent the accidental targeting of friends with nasty spells without needing to spend an Observe in Detail action.

If these kinds of things aren't feasible, then are there any nice benefits of AR to a character who's primary role is that of magician? If not, then would the Simsense Vertigo negative quality be a bargain for them? Would they be missing out on important benefits in their role as magician?

The AR display is just telling you where the target is, it's not actually making you see the target better. Magic requires a mystic link (usually Line of Sight), not "know where the target is" as with a gun. It's not a calculation in the brain, it's magic. You can't use AR overlays to help target magic. You can't target magic at something you can't see naturally. It's pretty simple.

you could, however, use an IFF system potentially. you'd have to be running wireless of course, and as has been said, knowing where your enemies are via AR targeting doesn't help you target them with magic at all. it's natural sight* or nothing (well, ok, sight that has been paid for with essence also works, at least in SR4... can't recall offhand if that's an official rule for SR5, but it should be).

however, knowing that someone is an ally only helps you if you're throwing something like mana bolt... if you toss a manaball, it doesn't matter if you know half the people inside it are allies or not... you still hit all targets you can see that are in the area (actually, it does matter in the sense that your team is probably going to be a lot more angry knowing that you just dropped a manaball on them and it wasn't an accident...)

*in this case, "sight" includes "astral perception" even though it isn't technically sight per se).

Except, of course, for indirects where you can target a point in space, and the AR display simply says "this point in space right here" - hence SR4's Spellslinger Gloves.

That's not exactly what I meant. Let me try an example that uses no glasses whatsoever.

You are walking behind a warehouse at night. You scan the area for an ambush and fail your Perception roll. Your dwarf teammate with thermographic vision is about 30 meters back and can see a warm human figure crouching beside a dumpster bright as day. He radios to you, "Hold up, there's someone beside the dumpster." You then peer into the shadows and can barely make out a human shape. You can't tell who it is, but it's enough to target a spell.

So what if instead you had something like an arrow that indicates "metahuman detected exactly here?" Could you then take a closer look at that spot? What if it was even better and showed you an outline that didn't block the optical view at all? Could you use that to then see that what looked like a trash bag in the dark is actually a leather jacket?

It's not an issue of "It is dim and I can not see this." It's "I did not notice that in the dim light, but now, thanks to the assistance, I can see something in the shadows that I can target." Of course this wouldn't work in full darkness or thick smoke or anything like that. It's for things that could be seen but for some reason weren't noticed.

Here's a bright light example. A security guard is making her rounds and doesn't notice a very stealthy street samurai zipping down the hallway. Her AR kicks in and points out that motion was detected with an arrow pointed right at the Sammy she missed just seconds before. Can she now see Sam now that he's been pointed out to her? If she were a magician, could she target him with a direct spell? She is wearing optical AR and he is not obscured by any sort of overlay. She's merely been alerted to his presence; she now sees what she didn't before. Can this work in places where it's harder to see, like dim light or light fog?

My bigger question: If the rules or prevailing GM opinion is that no, magicians can't benefit much at all from AR, would that make the Simsense Vertigo negative quality almost a no-brainer for them? Are there some AR benefits related to magic use that I have overlooked?

You would still need to make a Perception test so that YOU could see the target. You could get a positive modifier on the die roll, since you've gotten help from your friend, but you still need to be able to have seen the target yourself.



Same thing - assuming there is a motion detector that spotted the Samurai, and it sent an alert to the guard, the guard would still need to make a Perception check to spot the Samurai. It is not enough to know that someone is there, they have to see them themselves.



I wouldn't say it is a no brainer, in that AR allows you other benefits as well - and it is a big roleplaying issue if nothing else. Remember that the standard is that everyone is looking at things through AR all the time - that is the "norm" for the way metahumans interact with the world in 2075. You would be missing out on a wealth of information that everyone else would see, OR be seeing the information and dealing with a -2 dice penalty. No, AR doesn't give benefits to casting spells, but that isn't the only thing a mage/shaman would be using it for.

Are there even AR eyewear in SR5?

I've only found the imagelink description.

yes. page 443.

as to spotting something that's pointed out to you, i'd say:

(page 135): "you can
call for a Perception Test by taking an Observe in Detail
Simple Action to get a handle on what’s going down
around you."

depending on circumstances, the GM may feel it appropriate to grant a teamwork test from an ally to assist, but that should also require an action on their part.

it probably also constitutes making a second attempt at something, which is normally done at -2, but you're getting help in where to look specifically, so... i could see allowing it the second time at no penalty.

Here you have assumed that the Mage has succeeded in a perception test (as he now sees something he didn't see before). It this point since he has seen the target he can target them, but with the Dice Pool penalty for Low-Light conditions.


Yes, this is what should happen. The Mage should make a second Perception Test, with the bonus to his pool for looking specifically for something (I believe it is +3). I personally do not think the Mage should receive the "trying again" penalty as his first (failed) perception test was a general perception, and this one is a specific test, but YMMV.


But it is dim, which is probably why you didn't notice the guy the first time. The dim light conditions will still affect your ability to target that person with a spell, and you should take that penalty into account when you go to cast.


Again the guard needs to make another perception test, this time with the bonus for looking for something specific, and I again would not apply the trying again penality as this is actually a new test, the failed test was a general perception test to see if "anything" was wrong.


As stated by others there are a lot of other benefits to AR than simply casting spells or not. Simsense Vertigo is honestly as bad a choice for almost anyone as Allergy: Pollution. Everyone should be accessing AR often. Someone who refused to use AR at all might not even be able to eat in any normal restaurants or diners (top end places probably still have printed menus) because everything is handled by AR, you don't have a waiter/waitress, you have a server.

Now let's get into the rules argument mess of having an IFF system place black opaque AR squares over your teammates so you can't see them and therefore won't hit them with some AOE spells.





-k

Naw, let's not get into that can of worms. I say if you have a player trying this trick, you as the GM have every right to smack that player with whatever medium you have your book stored (hoping for a full-sized PC here).

And I'd say the players (plural and multiple) have every right to smack the GM back with whatever medium they have their books stored. (hoping for multiple full size PCs, now wouldn't that be fun? you know they really need a vepc smilie)

such a system would almost definitely have to be wireless. i mean, you could *theoretically* use a wired connection, but... well, there should be some fairly noticeable inherent drawbacks to that

in any event, wireless means a lot of problems. first off, if they're lobbing AOE spells, odds are good that the alarms are going. you can expect at least one, quite possibly two or more deckers are on their way, and will be there within a few combat turns of the alarm going off, in any place with decent security.

and the second they figure out your system, it's time to broadcast some fake IFF symbols for everyone. possibly even hack into your systems and switch around who gets those fancy black squares at just the right time. and then brick everything they can get their hands on.

in short, such a system is not without it's drawbacks... it will be viable against some opponents, but against others it can and most likely will be turned against you.

I think it gets down to this: can the mage see their target optically, regardless of whether or not they are aided by technology to point out where they are? If the answer is yes, any spell may be cast. If the answer is no, indirect can be cast.

For the purposes of our game, we decided to go with if the mage is using AR and has a reasonable number of things going on (not just, for example, having the time in the corner of his vision), then we're going to apply the -2 penalty to other things while in using AR rule.

Or you just flip the sunnies on top of you head while the fireballs fly and then do your best Horatio from CSI: Miami when things calm down.

"Look like their plans went up...*shades* in flames"

Especially since it is RAW in SR4A. Assuming you roll that way, anyways.

I now have the overwhelming desire to build a red-headed elf mage with a negative Charisma, negative points in the Acting SG, and Distinctive Style (Fucked Up Diction).

We won't get fooled again!

No to be confused with the human with low charisma in the gold Star Trek uniform with the Distinctive Style (fucked up diction).

That's...MY...woman there... mister

I made a troll mage npc who goes by Kirk or The Captain who does wear the uniform.

Nothing like it there.
I think image link is the all purpose replacement.

you asked for AR eyewear. that's where it is.

if you wish to get technical, yes you have to specifically add the image link. but that's all AR glasses/goggles/contacts/monocles/etc have ever been. in fact, i'm looking at my SR4A right now, and it has essentially the exact same layout; devices you can put vision enhancements into in one table/heading, the vision enhancements you can put into them right next to it. the electronics accessories has AR gloves, but makes absolutely no mention of AR eyewear (or anything to hear AR either, for that matter).

if you're looking for some sort of specialized glasses (or whatever else) that are super-special-awesomely designed for AR and only AR and have an entire section all to themselves, then no, those don't exist.

if you're looking for all the information you need to get glasses (or whatever else) that will let you see AROs, well, the page i sent you to is the place to look.

That's pretty much what i suggested at first....

and that page you suggested is weapon accessories....

no, i'm pretty sure it's the page for optical devices.

Sorry, but it is ammunition and weapon accessories tables.

I'm looking at 433 wrong page....

This is how I've always ruled it. You're free to disagree, but this has always worked for my tables.

In many spots, it refers to AR as an "overlay". So, it's laid over your normal vision. In other words, it modifies what you see, it doesn't replace it. Therefore, you can target through an AR image.

Now, the question is, what happens if the AR notices something you couldn't normally see? You get a perception test, possibly with a small bonus for the AR.

For example, using the scenario above: The security guard's AR notices a stealthy sammy, and paints a big bright "Lookie here!" arrow pointed at him. Well, first of all, the only time this would happen is on a tie between the guard's perception roll and the sammy's stealth roll. On a tie, the sammie remains hidden, but the guard gets a tingle, where she thinks something is up-- or her AR alerts her that something is up. The guard now Observes in Detail, a perception roll, opposed by the sammie's stealth. If the sammie wins, the guard thinks her AR is glitching, and walks away. If the guard wins, she goes to investigate a little closer.

I was thinking that sensors placed a meter apart for the length of the hallway would be what detected the samurai. That system knows exactly where the samurai is, that she's a metahuman, how fast she's moving, her temperature, possibly what weapons and cyberware she has, etc. The security guard failed her chance to notice, but the building sensors wirelessly alert the security guards AR.

I saw that there is a perception dice pool bonus for looking for something specifically. Would there be another or an additional bonus if that something is very clearly pointed out by AR? Also, what if there were zoom capabilities that let the security guard zoom right in on precisely where the intrusion detection system indicates? Would that yield more dice too?

NOTE: The following covers how AR is/can be handled in the real world since I can't freaking remember where my SR4 book is at the moment and I don't have an SR5 book.



Being an overlay actually doesn't pertain to the question of if spells can be cast while using an AR device. How AR is handled with said device is the key. Generally speaking there's two ways of doing AR, I'll call them the Digital and Optical methods for lack of knowing any better terminology. These terms are also useful since they're similar to magnification and how that works with casting as well.

Digital Method - Common Usage: Goggles
This method works via a camera/screen system with the camera(s) replacing the user's eyes and sending the feed, modified by AR, to the screens which are then viewed by the user. Natural light is not obtained by the user and thus, spells can not be targeted while wearing the system.

Visual:
Light>---Camera>---AR>---Screen>---Eye

Optical Method - Common Usage: Glasses
While similar to the digital method, this way instead uses translucent screen(s) where the only output is the AR overlay. Natural light passes through the screen which applies the AR overlay(s), and is then naturally perceived by the user thus, allows for spell targeting.

Visual:
Light>---Camera>---AR>---Lens>---Eye
&
Light>--Lens>---Eye

---
Example: Simple room, empty save for two targets. Target A is real, Target B exists only in AR. Two mages walk into the room and their AR device puts an arrow on Target A to denote that it is the real target.

Mage A is wearing a digital AR device, and while able to tell that Target A is real, is still unable to cast a spell since he's viewing the world through screens.
Mage B is wearing an optical AR device, notes that Target A is real and zaps it with a powerbolt.

---

While the above merely covers the method of AR display that covers both eyes, there's also single-eye variants where the device only covers one eye(Google Glass is a good example of this. The Eye Drives from Doctor Who could be considered similar as well). In that case, Mage A would also be able to zap the target. If AR was processed through cybereyes, there shouldn't be any issues there either IIRC.

In short, it pretty much comes down to how AR is displayed by devices and whether or not the overlay covers one or both eyes. Which I realize was said rather early on in the thread. However, digital setups would have a larger range of extras that could be integrated into the device such as thermal, image mag and the like.

Extra Fun:
Due to how I understand SR5 is doing things....
Digital AR devices could be bricked and impair vision in the eye(s) the display covers potentially requiring that they are removed before the user can see clearly again. Optical devices, if bricked, I'd rule that they wouldn't obscure vision but merely lose AR functionality while both are subject to being hacked to mess with the AR overall(adding/removing overlays for instance).

But the question is if Mage B is wearing an optical AR device, walks into a blacked out room and does not normally possess Infrared or low light so can not see the target, but for whatever reason the AR 'paints' the target on overlay so he knows where it is, can he cast a direct spell at said target who he can actually only 'see' via the AR overlay? In this case, probably not as he is not able to actually 'see' the target itself. He is missing the direct connection to close the magic circuit.

A indirect spell should be able to be cast as he has direction and location so he is just firing it off at the target not unlike a gun.

Explicitly, from p283, regarding indirect spells:



EDIT:

The downside! There's a downside! The spell (again from p283 for indirect spells) originates at or near the magician, so you can't cast these through magesight gear. Which means if you're looking down an optical cable at someone in the next room, you can hit them with manabolt or stunball all day, but never lightning bolt. But if you go all techno-mage, you can blast people in a pitch black room full of thermal smoke with fireball if you're using an ultrasound sensor.

Aww, I was just about to do a post on this using logic since I don't know as much about indirect spells. Glad to see my logic had me right though.

I was actually going for the "need a mystic link to the target" preventing this, so went to look up what information they included on mystic links and spellcasting, when I found this.

This, when combined with the other info you can find right around it, leads to this:

1) Direct Spells require a real optical, visual link. No technology can improve this -- if it's dark, you take full darkness penalties no matter how your low-light gear displays its information. If there's smoke, you take full smoke penalties no matter how your glasses might outline your target. Flatly, gear cannot help here. Fully electronic gear (digital goggles, etc) actively hinder you. As a bonus, though, any optical technology that lets you get line of sight to your target allows casting -- spells can bypass walls and go around corners so long as you've got that optical line of sight.

2) Indirect Spells only require line of effect. Any technology that can alleviate visual penalties are valid -- ultrasound goggles in pitch blackness, AR target profile overlays, the works. The negative here is that you must have that line of effect, so no casting around corners or into the next room no matter what you're using.

Optical, eh? So, optical mirrors to cast around corners would work..

Actually, it does. An overlay is, by definition, laid over your normal vision. Kind of like Google glass. A pure digital image is not an overlay, it's a replacement.

Ouch, combat spells just keep getting suckier. Page 281: "Spellcasting by visual targeting is subject to normal visibility modifiers."

The visibility modifiers on Page 175 are rain, fog, and smoke. Light/Glare, Wind, and Range are technically a different category. What this means is that, at the very least, dice are subtracted from the caster's dice pool when the weather is poor. I missed that entirely.

I don't want to conflate two issues. One is the perception test which determines if you even see a target at all. That applies to all characters, not only magicians. The other is the negative visibility modifiers to Spellcasting + Magic [Force] Test dice pools.

1) Perception:

I think that a) if an optical AR identifies something that you did not see, then you now qualify for the +3 modifier to your Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test for "Perceiver is specifically looking/listening for it", and b) if it outlines that thing in an easy to see way, then you (may) now qualify for the +2 modifier to your Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test for "Object/sound stands out in some way". Of course, negatives come along with that, like"Object/sound far away" and "Light and Visibility". All of these modifiers are on Page 135.) Again, this applies to all characters as to whether or not something is noticed at all. Naturally, you can't target unnoticed targets with a direct spell. My argument is simply that optical AR can give a larger dice pool to do that, just like sunglasses help against glare. (OMG, AR sunglasses!)

2) Visibility modifiers

In the book, those are rain, fog, and smoke (and presumably other things, like snow or whatever else the GM can think up). These negative modifiers affect the casting dice pool directly. The rules don't mention the other Environmental Modifier categories, such as Dark/Light.

Of course a magician cannot target someone with a direct spell that can only be seen by digital means. That means that the magician can never see something in total darkness, blinding glare, or shrouded in (thermal) smoke or weather conditions that the GM deems impenetrable, even if they have some Perception dice remaining after the -6 or -10 negative modifier. The target is simply invisible by optical means, period. I don't think anybody is disputing that.