Full Version: The ubiquious AK-97
right, but the weapon frame is a sport rifle. i'm just pointing out that, according to the rules, i don't think it should be taking double recoil mods.
I don't think that Raygun's guns follow the official firearms customization guide. This is because they're direct translations of actual real guns.
they use, i think, spud's FCG.
mfb: You haven't noticed before that all battle rifles on Raygun's page use double recoil? Although the M14 only has double recoil on FA.
And if you're going to change anything about the guns, the selective doubled recoil system absolutely has to go. LMGs have double recoil but Sport/Sniper Rifles don't?
And if you're going to change anything about the guns, the selective doubled recoil system absolutely has to go. LMGs have double recoil but Sport/Sniper Rifles don't?
ah, nope. hadn't noticed. i like raygun's rules, but it's too much trouble to get everyone else i play with to use 'em, so... *shrug*
Okay. Well, they do anyway, which makes perfect sense. One of those things that has often come up when battle rifles in SR have been discussed.
heh, yeah. it does make sense. more sense than changing the name of the frame and magically taking less recoil (and doing more damage!)
Why does the M14 only have double recoil on FA, anyway?
I'm guessing because it was there first, before he came up with a standard for dealing with battle rifles. His FA-capable shotguns also have double recoil only on FA.
Raygun usually seems to base the recoil on what calibre bullet the firearm is firing, so 7.62 gets double recoil modifiers for being such a powerful cartridge whilst 5.56 uses the normal rules mostly.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Why does the M14 only have double recoil on FA, anyway? |
Because I changed the language of that statement sometime back, but apparently overlooked changing it on the M1A/M14 page. The double uncompensated recoil rule (SR3.111) should be applied to all battle rifles (automatic rifles firing full-power rifle cartridges) and shotguns. I'll edit all the applicable pages to reflect that.
Don't know what I'd do without you guys.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| Don't know what I'd do without you guys. |
Have more free time to actually shoot?!?
Nifty!
'Been wondering when you were going to get around to some new content. Good stuff.
'Been wondering when you were going to get around to some new content. Good stuff.
Hey Raygun, you really want to make things fun, make sure on your FAL page to mention the differences between Inch, Metric, Indian, and Israeli FALs (parts interchangeablility, sights and charging handle fold on inch but not on metric, barrel threaded differently on some, etc.), and how inch can use metric mags, but not vice versa. That ought to throw a few people into fits.
Oh, and the FAL doesnt recoil much worse than the AK-47, IMO. The M14/M1A is worse, worse than the Garand even. I was rather amazed when I got to compare the two. I would have thought that they would be equal, or the Garand would be slightly worse.
You should get an AK built on one of those Polish kits that were available a while back. Sweeeet.
I just had an evil thought.....Know how firearms made prior to 1898 are classified as antiques, and you can mail order them without any kind of special license? What if there was something similar in the future, only now Garands and BAR's can be mail-ordered? Yikes, a ganger with a BAR!
Oh, and the FAL doesnt recoil much worse than the AK-47, IMO. The M14/M1A is worse, worse than the Garand even. I was rather amazed when I got to compare the two. I would have thought that they would be equal, or the Garand would be slightly worse.
You should get an AK built on one of those Polish kits that were available a while back. Sweeeet.
I just had an evil thought.....Know how firearms made prior to 1898 are classified as antiques, and you can mail order them without any kind of special license? What if there was something similar in the future, only now Garands and BAR's can be mail-ordered? Yikes, a ganger with a BAR!
| QUOTE (Hague) |
| Hey Raygun, you really want to make things fun, make sure on your FAL page to mention the differences between Inch, Metric, Indian, and Israeli FALs (parts interchangeablility, sights and charging handle fold on inch but not on metric, barrel threaded differently on some, etc.), and how inch can use metric mags, but not vice versa. That ought to throw a few people into fits. |
I throw a lot of them into fits enough as it is, and that's why I haven't included that whole bit. Certainly if a rifle design gets around as much as the FAL has, those manufactured in one place aren't necessarily going to be parts-compatible with rifles made elsewhere. The same is true for the multitude of different Kalashnikovs floating around.
Anyway, those that want to go into that much detail don't really need me to mention it. But in case you don't know and you're interested...
| QUOTE |
| Oh, and the FAL doesnt recoil much worse than the AK-47, IMO. |
I don't know what you've been shooting, but in my experience the FAL recoils substantially more than an AK and the difference is easily noticeable.
| QUOTE |
| The M14/M1A is worse, worse than the Garand even. I was rather amazed when I got to compare the two. I would have thought that they would be equal, or the Garand would be slightly worse. |
I hear you there. I had the same experience. The M14/M1A does slap you around a bit. I remember thinking, "Good God, this thing is not very forgiving" while shooting it from the bench. I've never gotten that impression from the FAL or the Garand, though I never had the opportunity to compare the rifles on the same day, either. I really can't imagine going full-auto with an M14. Just seems like a completely futile proposition.
| QUOTE |
| You should get an AK built on one of those Polish kits that were available a while back. Sweeeet. |
| QUOTE |
| I just had an evil thought.....Know how firearms made prior to 1898 are classified as antiques, and you can mail order them without any kind of special license? What if there was something similar in the future, only now Garands and BAR's can be mail-ordered? Yikes, a ganger with a BAR! |
Yeah. Well, aside from the unlikelihood of a new law like that applying to fully automatic firearms, a BAR in decent condition only ought to go for somewhere in the low six-figure range by 2060. Don't really see gangers bothering to go the legal route...
Whoa, Raygun, you've got the muzzle break on the AK-103 giving -3 recoil?
If so, rock on, but I was just checking to see if that's right?
If so, rock on, but I was just checking to see if that's right?
Yep, that's how I play it. In reality, the AK brake (and by that I mean the dual-chambered AK74-style brake; not the AKM slanted compensator) won't totally negate the recoil of three shots (obviously), but it does make a pretty substantial difference in the amount of energy that makes it to your shoulder. It's an extremely effective brake and that's why I chose to give it such a high rating. Not real good for the ears of anyone standing next to you, though.
Oh ok. I only used the 'old' style so I'll have to get my hands on a 74style break to try it out. Sounds interesting.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Sure. Krebs makes those, too. I plan on putting one on my SAR-1 as soon as possible.
To drift back on topic, In our games AK's don't show up in cities anywhere really. Most rifles don't unless in the hands of serious players like mob/corp strike teams or runners when we know it's a serious hard target.
By comparrison when we've done more of a military campaign in CFS they are more common because they are cheaper than most rifles and, to add some realism, easier to maintain in a dirty environment.
There are rl knock off all over the world mainly because the USSR was happy to let peope set up factorys in any place willing to oppose the evil capitalists. Ironically, Kalishnikov himself never got a penny in royalties because the USSR didn't recognize these laws.
As Raygun pointed out the AK works at the range it was designed for. The design was willing to sacrifice range for reliability. I think the bad rep they now have is less to do with manufactur than use. The common wielders of this now are Arabs who are more of the prey-and-spray type shooters, meaning lots of noise but little accuracy, as opposed to the western ideal of 1 shot 1 kill marksmenship.
By comparrison when we've done more of a military campaign in CFS they are more common because they are cheaper than most rifles and, to add some realism, easier to maintain in a dirty environment.
There are rl knock off all over the world mainly because the USSR was happy to let peope set up factorys in any place willing to oppose the evil capitalists. Ironically, Kalishnikov himself never got a penny in royalties because the USSR didn't recognize these laws.
As Raygun pointed out the AK works at the range it was designed for. The design was willing to sacrifice range for reliability. I think the bad rep they now have is less to do with manufactur than use. The common wielders of this now are Arabs who are more of the prey-and-spray type shooters, meaning lots of noise but little accuracy, as opposed to the western ideal of 1 shot 1 kill marksmenship.
i view AK-87s as a gang's big gun. small gangs won't be able to get one; medium gangs will pull out one or two for serious throwdowns; the Ancients have a stockpile of 10-20.
Since one of the Ancients' functions is gun running, I would think they'd have access to much than a mere 10-20 AK-97s.
well, i'm saying they keep that many on hand. yeah, they can get enough to arm most or all of their gang if they really need to. but that shouldn't happen very often.
My players tend to see quite a few AK97s and AKSU97s in the hands of guerrillas, terrorists, revolutionaries and crime syndicate enforcers, as well as certain characters who like the style (for instance, a Lithuanian gunrunner thankfully not called Boris and the team's Russian-speaking sniper-mage). Corpsecs, Lone Star, Metro-Guard and mercenaries with a budget worth speaking of tend more towards M23s and HK227s.
-JH.
-JH.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 17 2004, 09:46 AM) |
| I think the bad rep they now have is less to do with manufactur than use. The common wielders of this now are Arabs who are more of the prey-and-spray type shooters, meaning lots of noise but little accuracy, as opposed to the western ideal of 1 shot 1 kill marksmenship. |
I would have to agree with you here.
But I believe the proper term is "Spray and Pray".
edit: and not just arabs BTW =)
I really take some offense at the Arabs comment. It isn't just Arabs using the AK, considering they're wildly popular in just about every country in the world when you step outside of NATO, and god knows we run into them every time we drive up to a new country and LAUNCH EVERY MARINE FOR GREAT JUSTICE.
Well the idea is looking at the more violent parts of the world right now-starting in Somolia/Sudan north and east up to Afghanistan/Pakistahn
Yeah, but the violence isn't really limited, even relatively, to those areas. The Balkans are still a complete mess, and there are a lot of areas in the Pakistan/India region and South East Asia that are quite bloody right now, to mention a couple.
this PC moment has been brought to you by Johnson & Johnson. we now return to our regularly-scheduled discussion of guns and murder.
In my games, the "AK-97" is actually one of the 100-series AKs. For my next game, I am still deciding whether to just replace all instances of AK-97, or make up a reason why they would rename one of the 100-series.
Raygun, was the gas set correctly on the FAL you were shooting? None of mine recoil very badly at all. I think they are at least as easy to control in rapid fire as, say, the SAR-1's that I used to own.
Course, my personal preference for the 7.62x51mm may have something to do with this, too.
Snow_Fox, unfortunately us westerners have gotten into the spray-n-pray mentality quite a bit, too. Not as bad as the people we tend to have shooting at us, though.
Course, my personal preference for the 7.62x51mm may have something to do with this, too.
Snow_Fox, unfortunately us westerners have gotten into the spray-n-pray mentality quite a bit, too. Not as bad as the people we tend to have shooting at us, though.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| LAUNCH EVERY MARINE FOR GREAT JUSTICE. |
I think you mean "TAKE OFF EVERY MARINE".
To add another voice in the crowd, if someone has a random assault rifle in my games it'll usually be an AK-97 unless it has a good reason to be something else. Much like every unspecified gun is an Ares Predator until otherwise noted.
~J
| QUOTE (Hague) |
| Raygun, was the gas set correctly on the FAL you were shooting? None of mine recoil very badly at all. I think they are at least as easy to control in rapid fire as, say, the SAR-1's that I used to own. |
I'm not saying that either recoils badly. I'm saying that in my experience, it's not very difficult to tell the difference between the two and that the recoil of the FAL disturbs aim quite a bit more than the AK tends to. I've tried every position on the regulator there is (closed to full open), but we usually set it to 5 when plinking, and usually don't have to deviate more than a step (2 clicks) in either direction, depending on the ammunition.
The SAR-1 is completely stock. The FAL I most often shoot is an L1A1 Sporter, also stock, no muzzle brake (perhaps yours has one?). Ammunition most often used is Barnaul Brown Bear FMJ for the AK, and surplus US M80 for the FAL. Running the numbers, it comes to just over double the recoil from the FAL compared to the AK. Of course, this data doesn't account for the recoil-absorbing effects of an automatic action or any muzzle brakes, so you're likely to feel a little less recoil that this in reality, depending on the setup.
7.62x39mm FMJ (Barnaul Brown Bear)
Bullet Mass: 123 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 2330 fps
Charge Mass: 25.5 grains Reloder 7
Rifle Mass: 8.5 lbs
Recoil: 5.7 fpe @ 6.6 fps
7.62x51mm FMJ (US M80)
Bullet Mass: 150 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 2750 fps
Charge Mass: 45.5 grains IMR 4895
Rifle Mass: 9.5 lbs
Recoil: 12.7 fpe @ 9.3 fps
what happenend to the good old ingram smartgun?
scares my players to death if i throw a couple enemies at them with the ingram smartgun. it's not the best weapon in the book, but a "Pro" never changes his weapon and an ingram is pretty damn old. you get the point?
scares my players to death if i throw a couple enemies at them with the ingram smartgun. it's not the best weapon in the book, but a "Pro" never changes his weapon and an ingram is pretty damn old. you get the point?
that really, really depends on your idea of 'pro'. the idea of someone who is equally capable with--and willing to use--any firearm available could also be considered 'pro'.
i totaly understand your point.
someone with an ak97 or ak98 can and will be deadly.
someone with an ingram smartgun aged 35+ can be as deadly and maybe have a couple of extra-tricks (which you only get with experience) up his sleeve.
think about that. it's the not the size of the gun that matters the most.
someone with an ak97 or ak98 can and will be deadly.
someone with an ingram smartgun aged 35+ can be as deadly and maybe have a couple of extra-tricks (which you only get with experience) up his sleeve.
think about that. it's the not the size of the gun that matters the most.
s'right. it's the size of the compensator!
but, yeah. some of the scariest guys in iraq right now are pudgy, balding old guys who slaughter thousands on the way to breakfast. real pros, in real life, generally look like guys your dad would borrow a sander from.
but, yeah. some of the scariest guys in iraq right now are pudgy, balding old guys who slaughter thousands on the way to breakfast. real pros, in real life, generally look like guys your dad would borrow a sander from.
I kinda like the AK-97, if only because it's cheap...
I've just created a new ex-merc character and he has an AK-97 in the boot of his car configured for sniping (bipod, suppressor & low light scope), and it worked out cheaper than an FN-HAR outfitted the same way (I don't have the Cannon Companion
)
I always thought it'd be found in the hand of punks and mindless thugs mostly, but you'd probably also get the odd veteran that kept one around because of its reliability, and 'cause it'd probably be really easy to get hold of.
I've just created a new ex-merc character and he has an AK-97 in the boot of his car configured for sniping (bipod, suppressor & low light scope), and it worked out cheaper than an FN-HAR outfitted the same way (I don't have the Cannon Companion
)I always thought it'd be found in the hand of punks and mindless thugs mostly, but you'd probably also get the odd veteran that kept one around because of its reliability, and 'cause it'd probably be really easy to get hold of.
that's definitely true. if you do a lot of high-profile jobs that involve lots of shooting, an AK-97 might be your best option. just change out the barrel and firing pin between jobs.
You'd probably want to change out the entire bolt assembly in that case, rather than just the firing pin. Extractors leave identifiable marks as well. If you consider the AK-97 to be as similar to the AKM as it should be, you can get a new, pre-assembled bolt (bolt, firing pin, extractor, springs and retaining pins) for $20-50 today. New barrels run about $80-120 without front sight, gas block, rear sight block, etc... About $300-350 with all of that (in which case changing the barrel is a relatively painless process; one pin to remove an replace).
But if the AK-97 is as common and readily available as everyone seems to think, you might as well just buy another rifle or just trade in the one you have for another. Fixers and armorers are good contacts to have.
But if the AK-97 is as common and readily available as everyone seems to think, you might as well just buy another rifle or just trade in the one you have for another. Fixers and armorers are good contacts to have.
true.
| QUOTE (dandy) |
| what happenend to the good old ingram smartgun? scares my players to death if i throw a couple enemies at them with the ingram smartgun. it's not the best weapon in the book, but a "Pro" never changes his weapon and an ingram is pretty damn old. you get the point? |
IMO, the 20t, is the best off the rack SMG there is. Its comes with a SL (not SL2, but so what?), 3 points of RC, 32 round mag, conceal 5, and base damage code of 7M. What more do you want for a street (or legal) price of 950
?
Double post.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| Extractors leave identifiable marks as well. |
This is why caseless ammo is your friend.
If you can get ahold of caseless ammo.
Availability rules aside, this is something that's going to be at least marginally difficult to get ahold of.
Just pick up your brass, 'cause if you're in a situation where you dont have time, chances are the run is about hosed, and you just need to get out with your carcass in one piece.
And hell, if you really dont want to be caught, just club people with it. AK's are hefty rifles, with lots of protrusions for that extra kick....
Availability rules aside, this is something that's going to be at least marginally difficult to get ahold of.
Just pick up your brass, 'cause if you're in a situation where you dont have time, chances are the run is about hosed, and you just need to get out with your carcass in one piece.
And hell, if you really dont want to be caught, just club people with it. AK's are hefty rifles, with lots of protrusions for that extra kick....
no. in SR, caseless ammunition is at least as common as cased ammo, and possibly more common. of course, a weapon designed for cased ammo can't fire caseless, and vice-versa.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Dec 22 2004, 11:13 AM) |
| no. in SR, caseless ammunition is at least as common as cased ammo, and possibly more common. of course, a weapon designed for cased ammo can't fire caseless, and vice-versa. |
AND, every weapon comes in both cased and caseless versions!
Ah well...
LA LA LA LA LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
HE SAID, EVERY WEAPON COMES IN BOTH CASED AND CASELESS VERSIONS!
Yes, I do realise how completely illiogical/silly that is.
Yes, I do realise how completely illiogical/silly that is.
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